590 réponses à ce sujet

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

(I mean in real life you can't change your gender, not in character making hehe)

[Soundsystem]

pdusen wrote...

esper wrote...

No, but mention you can play as both a man and a woman and showcasing both equally is pretty important. And it wouldn't have taken him more than a second. "You can play as man, woman - elf, dwarf and human because we know how important custimization is to you."

The later it is done, the more the female inqusitor will seems as just an after thought.

Why is showcasing both equally important? Maybe they mostly showed the male inquisitor because concept and modeling work on the male inquisitor happens to have gotten done faster?

By the way, that doesn't necessarily mean that the male inquisitor was being prioritized over the female one. It's possible that they just got the Male concept art in a good place right away, while the female concept art didn't turn out that well and had to be redone a few times, which would delay its completion.

Is it possible Bioware has always been planning to include female Inquisitors in the marketing and mostly males were shown for those (or other) reasons? Absolutely!

But years of being ignored and not marketed to at all as a female gamer who plays traditionally "male" games show a trend of being ignored and not marketed to. I'm not going to assume "They'll get to me eventually.. yep!" when the past 13+ years of gaming shows me that it won't. 

What is the harm in asking, politely, even at an early stage, that Bioware keep in mind its female fan and direct some marketing showing the female Inquisitor?

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@thebreadedone, what?

[AutumnWitch]

MisterJB wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs.

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

Please elaborate on how, for instance, DA2 is a "typically" male experience; what actions Hawke takes that a woman should not or would not take because of her different perspective and what actions would a female Hawke choose to undertake that it would not even ocurr to a male Hawke because, again, of this distinct world perspective.

Easy, if you romance Merrill the choices and options are 100% the same. I can tell you for a FACT that lesbians and men do NOT romance (date/interact) the same. Period.

[MissOuJ]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

@MissOuJ, careful of what you say; I am a guy and I try my best to empathise with others. Just because people are male it does not mean it's harder for them to see injustice where it occurs; they aren't saying those things because they're male, they are saying them because that's just who they are and what they believe.

And I didn't imply any differently. I just said that it is easy to say "representation doesn't matter" if you are part of a group that does get represented. Like, it would be easier for me (as a straight, white woman) to say "discussion about playable LGBT characters / playable characters of colour isn't important" than it would be for me to say "discussion about playable female characters isn't important" because the former aren't "relevant" from my POV.

I do agree men are just as well equipped to recognize injustice and unequality as women, just as I have learned to recognize my white and straight priviledges. I'm just pointing out that it is easier to argue that "it's not too bright outside" if you have worn sunglasses all your life.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 20 août 2013 - 08:04 .

[Nyneve]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

Hmm. You make some good points, but all in all I have to disagree. I don't want to play from a female POV, I want a gender neutral POV. Because what exactly should change when you play as female? Some PCs do make comments, but I think wheter in real life or in the games, the differences between individuals are wider than between the gender, and I wouldn't want anyone to assume that there's one type of how women see the world. They could be stereotypically feminine or masculine or somewhere in between and the game can't really have that many variables for different genders for the PC, so just make it the same as on the playthrough with a male PC.

And yeah, I'd like to see more female Inquisotors in marketing. Also, there seem to be a lot of people here who use the word "feminist" as sort of an insult? It's not.

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As far as the feminist thing, Im in my 40s and have just reached the point that I am tired of hiding that fact incase it upsets anyone...and what people dont get is that being a feminist isnt anti-male its just looking out for the good of women in general. Hell I have two boys and they are the roughest, toughest boys on the block! 

Probably there isn't. And if one "gender POV" gets the better treatment it will probably the stereotypically masculine one because most writers are male, but that's a whole other issue  

(I mean in real life you can't change your gender, not in character making hehe)

Yes you can.

[pdusen]

Soundsystem wrote...

What is the harm in asking, politely, even at an early stage, that Bioware keep in mind its female fan and direct some marketing showing the female Inquisitor?

There is no harm and the request doesn't bother me. Some people in this thread take it a little further than a simple polite request, to the point of expressing severe dissappointment, as if some sort of crime has been committed.

[Fredward]

AutumnWitch wrote...
Easy, if you romance Merrill the choices and options are 100% the same. I can tell you for a FACT that lesbians and men do NOT romance (date/interact) the same. Period.

I can tell you blanket statments are never accurate. Period. And yes I recognize the irony of this statement.

Modifié par Foopydoopydoo, 20 août 2013 - 08:05 .

[Nelatherion]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

 Now before this starts to seem too confrontational, I honestly do understand that the majority of your target market is male, Bioware, I do. However I think it would have been nice to at least see one or two concept arts or hear a mention of a female inquisitor; from what I saw in the gamescom video, not only was the inquisitor referred to as a male but all the concept arts seemed to depict a male one as well (although one was dubious, but the same shaped character was male in another art so I'm pretty sure it was a he).

Maybe I'm reading too much into concept art, but at this stage the concept art is a big part of the marketing material being released, and the absence of a woman is annoying me a tiny bit.

Maybe I have completely missed some other concept art of a female inquisitor, and I would welcome seeing it if that were the case

Sorry about this, it's just the genral lack of female hawke in marketing for Da2 really rubbed me the wrong way ahaha.

inb4 entitled, inb4 it's just concept art, inb4 you're getting worked up over nothing

Really? What would you prefer the Inquisitor's pro-nouns be? Xir? Zir? Zippity-bop-gumble-balls? This is a 3 minute behind the scenes video, with a small amount of concept art and one developer calls the Inquisitor "Him", it does in no way represent the entire marketing strategy of the game.

You can untwist your knickers, it is still early days in terms of marketing. And besides, you can make the Inquisitor female if you wish, the advertisment of a male Inquisitor should not bother you just as a the advertisement of a human inquisitor should not bother anyone who will play a dwarf(lol) one. No need to go all tumblr on us... yet.


EDIT: It seems I spoke to soon, the Tumblrites are here. Flee! Flee for your lives!

Modifié par Nelatherion, 20 août 2013 - 08:06 .

[esper]

AutumnWitch wrote...

Nyneve wrote...

Hmm. You make some good points, but all in all I have to disagree. I don't want to play from a female POV, I want a gender neutral POV. Because what exactly should change when you play as female? Some PCs do make comments, but I think wheter in real life or in the games, the differences between individuals are wider than between the gender, and I wouldn't want anyone to assume that there's one type of how women see the world. They could be stereotypically feminine or masculine or somewhere in between and the game can't really have that many variables for different genders for the PC, so just make it the same as on the playthrough with a male PC.

And yeah, I'd like to see more female Inquisotors in marketing. Also, there seem to be a lot of people here who use the word "feminist" as sort of an insult? It's not.

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As far as the feminist thing, Im in my 40s and have just reached the point that I am tired of hiding that fact incase it upsets anyone...and what people dont get is that being a feminist isnt anti-male its just looking out for the good of women in general. Hell I have two boys and they are the roughest, toughest boys on the block! 

That I am not sure worried about. Hawke and the Warden was both written okay gender neutral. The only part where the woman being an after thought was very visible was in the romace option for female shephard (different team) and the dress thing for MoTA, and idle animation.

The idle animation and the dress thing has to do wiht the designers. (And the problem with the dress was not that it was ugly or that it should have been different for the female, it was that the dress clearly, unlike other kind of armours, wasn't shaped to the female model). And the li thing was not DA's writing team.

There is a good amount of women on the writing team and I think the PC is patch work between the different writers of different scenes.

[AutumnWitch]

pdusen wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

I agree a gender neutral POV is probably optimal. But how do you do that? Is there a way for either a woman or man to step back and write something completely gender neutral? And if so, would it be as interesting? I agree with you gender is very very fluid and having a real neutral POV would be great! 

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

In my blog right now I am writing a small story (I post each day) about the my female, lesbian Hawke after the events of DA2. Its only just begun (ten posts) but one of the things I will be doing is trying to show the world through her eyes and her situation (and Merrill's as her partner). Follow that and I think you might see the subtle differences in which we experience the world.

[TK514]

Soundsystem wrote...

What is the harm in asking, politely, even at an early stage, that Bioware keep in mind its female fan and direct some marketing showing the female Inquisitor?

Nothing.  In fact, had the OP done just that, my only response would have been a quote box and a +1.

Unfortunately, the OP skipped 'polite request' and jumped straight to '(unjustified) complaint'.

[pdusen]

AutumnWitch wrote...

pdusen wrote...

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

In my blog right now I am writing a small story (I post each day) about the my female, lesbian Hawke after the events of DA2. Its only just begun (ten posts) but one of the things I will be doing is trying to show the world through her eyes and her situation (and Merrill's as her partner). Follow that and I think you might see the subtle differences in which we experience the world.

Statistically, that wouldn't count for much. Most people don't experience the world the way I do.

[Lenimph]

I just didn't like that a gender pronoun was even introduced while describing the Inquisitor. They could have done that entire trailer (and they almost did) using just the name Inquisitor. (Infanct could have cared less of the gender of the concept art) It was just that one dev that decided he was going to talk about the Inquisitor in a male sense.

And yes it does make a difference. Maybe there are people who a new to the series and will automatically assume while watching the trailer that the inquisitor is male, and that there is no option of choice, and might loose interest in the game because of it.

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Nyneve, no you can't.

You can change your SEX, but changing your gender is like changing your sexuality; it isn't going to happen.

[pdusen]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

pdusen wrote...

It's not a matter of privilege. I don't see a problem because there is no problem. If Bioware had filled that video almost entirely with female protagonists, or referred to to the Inquisitor as a She, I wouldn't have even blinked at it. Hell, almost every Tabletop RPG book I've ever read has done exactly that.

The only implications are the ones that you put into it.

It's very easy to make this claim because the likelihood of promotional material being 100% full of female protaganists is pretty much nonexistant.  I'm not claiming to know what you think becaue I don't, but I do know that is a completely no risk declaration.  

Fair enough. I can only say what I believe.

[esper]

AutumnWitch wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

As a woman, lesbian, feminist and writer I am saddened again it appears (and I admit I am assuming here) from what we saw in the video BW is designing DAI with the fact that the protagonist is male. Which means that again, we who chose female PC will just get the same experience we would get if we chose male except that we will have hips and boobs.

Many here will ask? What is wrong with that? Well in my opinion it belittles the female sex to an afterthought of the male. I ask you BW? How different do you think this story would be if the protagonist was a woman and seeing the world through her eyes? I am not saying one is better than the other but what I am saying is that they are different.

No matter how many people want it to not be, the fact is men and women see and experience the world differently. If the game had been written for a female protagonist I bet that there would have to be some changes that would have to be made if the player chose to play male. But for some reason, when a game is written for a male, there doesn't seem to be the same concern for making changes if someone wants to play as female. What this means is just what I said above, by not making the female experience different than the males you are basically saying the male experience should be good enough for you without any changes, which belittles women by basically saying a man's experience is somehow more universal or even better.

Please elaborate on how, for instance, DA2 is a "typically" male experience; what actions Hawke takes that a woman should not or would not take because of her different perspective and what actions would a female Hawke choose to undertake that it would not even ocurr to a male Hawke because, again, of this distinct world perspective.

Easy, if you romance Merrill the choices and options are 100% the same. I can tell you for a FACT that lesbians and men do NOT romance (date/interact) the same. Period.

And as a biromantic person I can tell you that I would approach a male romance and a female with the same approach.

I can also tell you that men and women are individuals and each person approach romance according to their individual preference.

And they did not interact the same. There was a subtle difference. With the male there Merrill talked about thing like children and dalish/human interaction. That was not a problem with the woman (obviously) and instead she discussed how much she looked up to Hawke.

Modifié par esper, 20 août 2013 - 08:13 .

[AutumnWitch]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...
Easy, if you romance Merrill the choices and options are 100% the same. I can tell you for a FACT that lesbians and men do NOT romance (date/interact) the same. Period.

I can tell you blanket statments are never accurate. Period. And yes I recognize the irony of this statement.

Doesnt change the fact that is true, Look at all the books written on men and womens relationships with each other. Thousands! Clearly we see the world ( love/dating) differently than men, That doesnt mean better it just means different.

Men and lesbians are different too. I think that is pretty self evident lol

[Soundsystem]

pdusen wrote...

phunx wrote...

It clearly is a problem, since it bothers people? But it doesn't bother you - so you're saying it's not a problem. That's textbook privilege, sorry.

Everyone has things that bother them. Some of them are reasonable.

And you are the one who gets to decide what is reasonable and what isn't?

How convient.

Just because an issue doesn't affect you doesn't make caring about it unreasonable. 

[LinksOcarina]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

shinobi602 wrote...

Why's it annoying you?

Because of the lack of female protagonists in gaming at the moment.

I like equal representation.

@MisterJB, are you sure that's the inquisitor? It has no kind of symbol, and doesnt resemble the other inquisitor concept art...

I may have missed when it was confirmed that was the inquisitor though , I'm not around here that much.

So...the fact that protagonists in BioWare games are treated as gender neutral is completely irrelevent?

[Nyneve]

Nelatherion wrote...

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

 Now before this starts to seem too confrontational, I honestly do understand that the majority of your target market is male, Bioware, I do. However I think it would have been nice to at least see one or two concept arts or hear a mention of a female inquisitor; from what I saw in the gamescom video, not only was the inquisitor referred to as a male but all the concept arts seemed to depict a male one as well (although one was dubious, but the same shaped character was male in another art so I'm pretty sure it was a he).

Maybe I'm reading too much into concept art, but at this stage the concept art is a big part of the marketing material being released, and the absence of a woman is annoying me a tiny bit.

Maybe I have completely missed some other concept art of a female inquisitor, and I would welcome seeing it if that were the case

Sorry about this, it's just the genral lack of female hawke in marketing for Da2 really rubbed me the wrong way ahaha.

inb4 entitled, inb4 it's just concept art, inb4 you're getting worked up over nothing

Really? What would you prefer the Inquisitor's pro-nouns be? Xir? Zir? Zippity-bop-gumble-balls? This is a 3 minute behind the scenes video, with a small amount of concept art and one developer calls the Inquisitor "Him", it does in no way represent the entire marketing strategy of the game.

You can untwist your knickers, it is still early days in terms of marketing. And besides, you can make the Inquisitor female if you wish, the advertisment of a male Inquisitor should not bother you just as a the advertisement of a human inquisitor should not bother anyone who will play a dwarf(lol) one. No need to go all tumblr on us... yet.

I think they/them pronouns would be fine, but hey if you like xi/zir better And to repeat, it matters more because women are actually part of the demographic, women play video games (and pay for them), dwarves don't. I bet that if the only version ever used in marketing was a woman (maybe even POC?) there would be outcries. I agree it's still early marketing, and thus there's a lot of time left to be more inclusive, but where's the harm in asking for it? 
We're all repeating each other I guess...maybe we just need to wait and see. Also what does this have to do with tumblr? 

[Lenimph]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

(I mean in real life you can't change your gender, not in character making hehe)

Oh yes you can 

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

your gender is like changing your sexuality; it isn't going to happen.

Oh right of course. 

Because gender and sexuality is just as black and white as the night and day. 

Modifié par Lenimph, 20 août 2013 - 08:15 .

[Maria Caliban]

Nyneve wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...
(I mean in real life you can't change your gender, not in character making hehe)

Yes you can.

You can change the gender you present as. One's gender identity is out of one's control.

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...
Easy, if you romance Merrill the choices and options are 100% the same. I can tell you for a FACT that lesbians and men do NOT romance (date/interact) the same. Period.

I can tell you blanket statments are never accurate. Period. And yes I recognize the irony of this statement.

I'd say that same-gender and opposite-gender couples tend to interact in different ways, but there's a problem with taking that into a game.

1) Romances in fictions are by necessity truncated and dramatized.
2) These differences are difficult to pin down because there are no two couples in the real world are exactly the same save for gender. That's simply one aspect among a multitude.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 20 août 2013 - 08:15 .

[AutumnWitch]

pdusen wrote...

AutumnWitch wrote...

pdusen wrote...

As an experiment, a male and female writer could each write all of the lines for the inquisitor, and then get together and decide which lines from each set that they both find acceptable.

In my blog right now I am writing a small story (I post each day) about the my female, lesbian Hawke after the events of DA2. Its only just begun (ten posts) but one of the things I will be doing is trying to show the world through her eyes and her situation (and Merrill's as her partner). Follow that and I think you might see the subtle differences in which we experience the world.

And all I am saying is that men and women see the world differently too.



Statistically, that wouldn't count for much. Most people don't experience the world the way I do.