727 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Breathe in the irony.

[Wulfram]

eluvianix wrote...

Hardly disturbing. Losing pro-templar radicals isn't a bad thing.

Yeah, it is.  We don't want to drive people off forums, we want to have fun discussions with them.

[Hellion Rex]

Wulfram wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Hardly disturbing. Losing pro-templar radicals isn't a bad thing.

Yeah, it is.  We don't want to drive people off forums, we want to have fun discussions with them.

I meant in the metaphorical sense, not literally get rid of them. I wish for them to hear us, to help them see things from our perspective.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

You guys make it very hard for me to be pro-mage.

When I first got here I assumed the radicals and crazies would be pro-templar.

Given its greater removal from modern ethics, the templar position has fewer supporters overall and even fewer who follow it to the full logical conclusion.

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

Key word? SERVE. You seem to indicate that Templars want to eradicate all Mages. That is never the conclusion of any pro-Templar supporter. You can't use Mages as tools in times of need (such as a Blight) if you kill them all.

Besides, the possibility of even full scale genocide to wipe out a trait like being able to use magic is impossible. How would you have any idea of who the carriers would be? How would you be able to test people for the talent of magic if they keep it secret? 

Morrigan can walk through a town undetected and unharmed. Unless a Mage wears a funny hat, there is zero way to catch them if they don't want to be found.

I think it's funny how I see radical pro-templars maybe once a week.  While everyday or two I see pro mage radicals.

I think we're succeeding in slowly driving out many of the radical pro-templars.

That's a disturbing mindset. And what of Gaider's recent post about making it appear that a pro-Mage stance may possibly end in pain and suffering for many? Will you still feel that driving away people who believed in a safer path?

Hardly disturbing. Losing pro-templar radicals isn't a bad thing.

No, it is indeed very disturbing.  I'm as pro-mage as the next person, but nobody here has any business actively and deliberately trying to drive anyone out, regardless of their views.  We are talking about a fictional setting here.  Taking pride in driving out a group of people, as if you've somehow scored a point against a real world kkk-esque group, is nothing short of pathetic.

[frankf43]

leaguer of one wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

You guys make it very hard for me to be pro-mage.

When I first got here I assumed the radicals and crazies would be pro-templar.

Given its greater removal from modern ethics, the templar position has fewer supporters overall and even fewer who follow it to the full logical conclusion.

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

Key word? SERVE. You seem to indicate that Templars want to eradicate all Mages. That is never the conclusion of any pro-Templar supporter. You can't use Mages as tools in times of need (such as a Blight) if you kill them all.

Besides, the possibility of even full scale genocide to wipe out a trait like being able to use magic is impossible. How would you have any idea of who the carriers would be? How would you be able to test people for the talent of magic if they keep it secret? 

Morrigan can walk through a town undetected and unharmed. Unless a Mage wears a funny hat, there is zero way to catch them if they don't want to be found.

I think it's funny how I see radical pro-templars maybe once a week.  While everyday or two I see pro mage radicals.

I think we're succeeding in slowly driving out many of the radical pro-templars.

That's a disturbing mindset. And what of Gaider's recent post about making it appear that a pro-Mage stance may possibly end in pain and suffering for many? Will you still feel that driving away people who believed in a safer path?

1. That does not mean you should enslave them. Making  system to point out who is a mage and managing them is fine. Inprisoning thme for what they are is not.

2. So the end of the templar tea party has come?

It is always easier to lock away anybody that fits into a demographic that you feel my cause a threat to you and yours than to actually go out and look for the people who are actually causing harm.

Heaven forbid that Templars should actually go out and patrol the land looking for blood mages rather than sitting in a tower abusing  those who are not prepared to fight back.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

You guys make it very hard for me to be pro-mage.

When I first got here I assumed the radicals and crazies would be pro-templar.

Given its greater removal from modern ethics, the templar position has fewer supporters overall and even fewer who follow it to the full logical conclusion.

Magic exists to serve man, not to rule over him.

Key word? SERVE. You seem to indicate that Templars want to eradicate all Mages. That is never the conclusion of any pro-Templar supporter. You can't use Mages as tools in times of need (such as a Blight) if you kill them all.

Besides, the possibility of even full scale genocide to wipe out a trait like being able to use magic is impossible. How would you have any idea of who the carriers would be? How would you be able to test people for the talent of magic if they keep it secret? 

Morrigan can walk through a town undetected and unharmed. Unless a Mage wears a funny hat, there is zero way to catch them if they don't want to be found.

I think it's funny how I see radical pro-templars maybe once a week.  While everyday or two I see pro mage radicals.

I think we're succeeding in slowly driving out many of the radical pro-templars.

That's a disturbing mindset. And what of Gaider's recent post about making it appear that a pro-Mage stance may possibly end in pain and suffering for many? Will you still feel that driving away people who believed in a safer path?

Hardly disturbing. Losing pro-templar radicals isn't a bad thing.

No, it is indeed very disturbing.  I'm as pro-mage as the next person, but nobody here has any business actively and deliberately trying to drive anyone out, regardless of their views.  We are talking about a fictional setting here.  Taking pride in driving out a group of people, as if you've somehow scored a point against a real world kkk-esque group, is nothing short of pathetic.

Sorry my next post clarified what I meant: "I meant in the metaphorical sense, not literally get rid of them. I wish for them to hear us, to help them see things from our perspective." To promote a little bit more listening to the other side, not just radicalism on either side. Compromise.

[Xilizhra]

No, it is indeed very disturbing. I'm as pro-mage as the next person, but nobody here has any business actively and deliberately trying to drive anyone out, regardless of their views. We are talking about a fictional setting here. Taking pride in driving out a group of people, as if you've somehow scored a point against a real world kkk-esque group, is nothing short of pathetic.

To clarify, I was kidding about the Master Plan I'd mentioned before. I actually have no organized scheme in mind to carry that out.

[BioWareMod02]

No more religion talk, guys. This is going down the hill fast. Stop it before I lock it.

[Hellion Rex]

Back on topic. I let Anders go out of past friendship with my Hawke, after I made him help deal with Meredith. Hopefully in DAI he might have his sanity back in check, or have Vengeance removed from him. I am unsure how I would have my Inquistor react to him though...

[Jaison1986]

I think Anders will be an nicer person in Inquisition if you push him to the friendship path, since it seems he came in terms with what he became. While in rivalry I think he will be more self destructive and dangerous.

[wolfhowwl]

Silfren wrote...
No, it is indeed very disturbing.  I'm as pro-mage as the next person, but nobody here has any business actively and deliberately trying to drive anyone out, regardless of their views.  We are talking about a fictional setting here.  Taking pride in driving out a group of people, as if you've somehow scored a point against a real world kkk-esque group, is nothing short of pathetic.

Surprised? You shouldn't be.

It's fairly obvious which posters are projecting their real-life mental baggage onto this game. This is personal for them.

Modifié par wolfhowwl, 08 octobre 2013 - 07:19 .

[BouncyFrag]

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

[Seboist]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

Would have liked to deal with Anders in the same manner as Roche did with Dethmold in TW2 and he'd have been more deserving of it too.

Modifié par Seboist, 08 octobre 2013 - 07:24 .

[Hellion Rex]

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

I completely disagree. But nonetheless, wouldn't the presence of Vengeance in his body completely negate that? Pharamond's possession seemed to reverse his Tranquility.

[Volus Warlord]

He would look all sentimental in a casket.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

I completely disagree. But nonetheless, wouldn't the presence of Vengeance in his body completely negate that? Pharamond's possession seemed to reverse his Tranquility.

It would, yes.  Based on what we know from Asunder, it would not be possible to Tranq him without first expunging Justice from his body.

Modifié par Silfren, 08 octobre 2013 - 07:44 .

[Mr.House]

Volus Warlord wrote...

He would look all sentimental in a casket.

Terrorist should not get caskets.

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

I completely disagree. But nonetheless, wouldn't the presence of Vengeance in his body completely negate that? Pharamond's possession seemed to reverse his Tranquility.

It would, yes.  Based on what we know from Asunder, it would not be possible to Tranq him without first expunging Justice from his body.

Were they at the point of being so intertwined that we couldn't remove Justice without killing Anders though?

[Hellion Rex]

Mr.House wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

He would look all sentimental in a casket.

Terrorist should not get caskets.

Nah, state funeral.:innocent:

[Seboist]

Mr.House wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

He would look all sentimental in a casket.

Terrorist should not get caskets.

Yeah, he should be dumped in a landfill.

[Heidenreich]

*rubs temples*

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

I completely disagree. But nonetheless, wouldn't the presence of Vengeance in his body completely negate that? Pharamond's possession seemed to reverse his Tranquility.

It would, yes.  Based on what we know from Asunder, it would not be possible to Tranq him without first expunging Justice from his body.

Were they at the point of being so intertwined that we couldn't remove Justice without killing Anders though?

I'm not sure, actually.  Origins gives us lore that says of the two kinds of possession (one being a willing host who allows the spirit/demon in, the other being forced entry, as it were, by said demon/spirit), one can be reversed without killing the host, while the other cannot.  Can't remember offhand which is which, though . But that doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true, however.  But in the case of Anders/Justice I'm of the mind that he/they would fight to the death rather than submit to being separated.

[Nohvarr]

[quote]I'd cry were it not for the fact that all of that was happening anyway, and the point of the war is to stop it.[/quote]
Then, considering what we know of DAI, it failed. All hell is literally breaking loose, Mages and Templars are focused more on killing one another than stopping a horde of demons, and innocent people across the land are being maimed, killed and worse in these terrible times. All because Anders couldn’t see a better solution than war.


[quote]Constant repetition of the "in chains" line intrigues me. You feel personally damaged by his action somehow, so you want to reassert your own power by taking control of him as a visceral thing, it seems.[/quote]
When someone decides to plunge the entire world into war because they themselves are not smart enough to figure out a better way to solve a problem I tend to take it kind of personal. Then there’s my dislike of people who kill innocents either to send a message or because they don’t care about collateral damage.


[quote]Meredith wanted to slaughter every mage in the Circle prior to what Anders did. [/quote]
“And I want a puppy, doesn’t mean I’m going to get one.”
-Elizabeth, Bioshock Infinite


[quote]How exactly is Anders to blame for “starting up a war” when it was already in progress to begin with? [/quote]
Well, the Divine and the Grand Cleric had both told Meredith “NO” and without their approval she’d need justification to enact her wish. Other Templars within her Command were taking steps to undermine her influence and her command. At the same times the nobles of Kirkwall we’re about ready to revolt against the Commander, and likely could’ve been talked into an alliance of coneniance since she was just as much a threat to them as she was to the Mages. Then Anders hands her the excuse she needs on a silver platter with a pretty pink bow wrapped around it. Not since Jar Jar Binks have I seen someone hand the obvious villain everything they need.


[quote]And here I thought your Quanri mage Inquisitor would learn a thing or two about the mistreatment of mages.[/quote]
Let’s see, as a Qunari Mage, my goal is to bring stability to the world in order to fight a greater threat. Anders played a significant role in plunging the world into Chaos. If he’s alive his Capture would deny the Templars a boogey man to use to continue their war, while denying the Mages a figure head to rally behind. Another step in getting both sides to stop their squabbling and focus on the real threat.
 

[quote]I don't quite endorse Anders' action, but I won't kill him for it.[/quote]
If you knew he was about to blow up the Chantry before hand, would you stop him?


[quote]I wouldn't call ok, but necessary. If someone doesn't take an stand, the Chantry will continue to opress people forever. The world sure as hell won't change simply by going down the streets shouting that the chantry is wrong.[/quote]
I’m sure that’s what the Templars tell their young initiats when they voice a concern about the treatment of mages.


[quote]Ridiculous. Elthina is Meredith's superior and could have called her off. [/quote]
[quote]If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
[/quote]


[quote]And if that was somehow impossible, she could have alerted the Chantry superiors, especially Leliana, that Meredith had effectively launched a coup against the Chantry. She deliberately tried to make the Chantry less interested in affairs in Kirkwall, making it seem as though everything was under control.[/quote]
Yes she was, because the Divine was considering calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall. So, she choose to let Meredith and Orisino calm down and work things out rather than have the Divine order an army into Kirkwall to do it for them. And then Anders rolls in an sets fire to everything.


[quote]Grand Cleric Elthina was an arrogant old hag that thought that she was untouchable. Anders showed her [/quote]
Let’s take a look at her actions

[quote]After Sebastian was forced into the Chantry, Elthina helped him escape in the dead of night, telling him that people should enter the Chantry through the front door, not the back. She gave him a purse full of gold and told him to go and live his life. Thanks to her words, Sebastian returned to the Chantry - through the front door this time - with his faith restored.
….
Hawke can show Ser Alrik's letter to Elthina after investigating his "Tranquil solution". Elthina says that Ser Alrik made a suggestion, but they turned him down. She insists that the Rite of Tranquility is a last resort.
◾ Hawke can inform Elthina that a templar used her seal to make a member of the guard ignore the Qunari delegates being abducted. Elthina replies that she hoped this would not go so far and that she will step in when it's time.
…..
Hawke tells Elthina that Petrice is behind the murder. Elthina replies that Petrice has erred in her judgment and that a court will decide her fate. Then she turns away and walks up the stairs. Seconds later a Qunari assassin kills Petrice with an arrow. Elthina looks back only to tell Hawke to send for the Viscount.
….
By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment[5] and, according to Ser Karras, Meredith has sent for the permission of the Divine in Val Royeaux instead.
In Hightown, Orsino is trying to convince the nobles that Meredith uses the fear of mages to take control of Kirkwall. Meredith accuses him of inciting a rebellion. Then Elthina arrives and asks the templars to "show the First Enchanter back to the Circle," adding an injunction for them to treat him "gently," and Meredith to "go back to the Gallows and calm down, like a good girl." If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
….
In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.
When Hawke returns only to pass the agent's message that Elthina must leave Kirkwall for Orlais because she will not be safe in the city, Elthina refuses to abandon her flock. She asserts that she is in no personal danger since nobody would dare attack the Grand Cleric. Later Elthina tells that she has been talking with both Orsino and Meredith and that Orsino "is not an unreasonable man;" she feels, therefore, that a compromise can be reached.
When Anders asks Hawke to help him gather ingredients for a "potion" and then to distract Elthina for him to get inside the Chantry unseen, Hawke can:
◾ Agree. Hawke comes to Elthina to discuss the mages and the templars. Elthina claims that she cannot take sides and that she is seeking to balance the needs of everyone. Then Anders shows up. Elthina comments that his soul is troubled and expresses her hope that he found a balm for it in the Chantry.[/quote]

She’s too passive, but that’s not a justification for murder.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 08 octobre 2013 - 08:10 .

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

BouncyFrag wrote...

Elanor1 wrote...

I hope he will appear in DA:I if you didn't killed him in DA2. I always let him live so I can in DA:I bring him to justice.

Tranquility would have been a more fitting punishment for his actions.

I completely disagree. But nonetheless, wouldn't the presence of Vengeance in his body completely negate that? Pharamond's possession seemed to reverse his Tranquility.

It would, yes.  Based on what we know from Asunder, it would not be possible to Tranq him without first expunging Justice from his body.

Were they at the point of being so intertwined that we couldn't remove Justice without killing Anders though?

I'm not sure, actually.  Origins gives us lore that says of the two kinds of possession (one being a willing host who allows the spirit/demon in, the other being forced entry, as it were, by said demon/spirit), one can be reversed without killing the host, while the other cannot.  Can't remember offhand which is which, though . But that doesn't necessarily mean it's 100% true, however.  But in the case of Anders/Justice I'm of the mind that he/they would fight to the death rather than submit to being separated.

I agree that the two would probably be averse to the idea of separation. I think that the Anders and Justice are both similar and different to Wynne though. Both situations were of consenting parties (I am assuming Wynne was consenting even though she was technically dead). Also, both situations had the possessed and the spirit seemingly intertwined. However, I would think that any attempt to  end a possession like that of Wynne's would end in death. Period. However, Ander's dissonance and combatting with Justice seem to hint at a less than seamless possession. Perhaps this amount of conflict could be exploited to separate Anders and Justice. This is all just my own conjecture however.