727 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

greengoron89 wrote...

Anders will change his story depending on whether he's a friend or rival. He'll say Justice made him do it if he's a rival, and that he did it of his own accord if he's a friend.

That definitely makes him a liar... but which is the truth?

Not really. If Hawke has been supporting Anders, he has become convinced of how "righteous" his cause is so, when Vengeance says "Blow up the Chantry", Anders reasons that is a pretty good idea so, he goes along with it of his own accord.
If Hawke manages to convince Anders that he is wrong, mages are dangerous, peaceful compromise is preferable to violent rebellion, etc, then Vengeance steps in and forces Anders to go through with it.

Modifié par MisterJB, 08 octobre 2013 - 11:17 .

[Silfren]

ScarMK wrote...

Silfren wrote...
 Vengeance apparently goes all helpless?

Either the writers dropped the ball or Anders lied about that too.

Given that the ONLY time we ever see characters lie, it's done in a very obvious way you'd have to be blind to miss, I don't think he lied about it.  I think it's just another dropped ball.

[Silfren]

greengoron89 wrote...

Anders will change his story depending on whether he's a friend or rival. He'll say Justice made him do it if he's a rival, and that he did it of his own accord if he's a friend.

That definitely makes him a liar... but which is the truth?

Er, no, it doesn't make him a liar.  The two paths are the result of how his character changes in reaction to the way he is supported or opposed by Hawke.  It's not that he's changing his story, but that his character goes in a different direction, depending on whether your rivaled him or not.

[Silfren]

MisterJB wrote...

Silfren wrote...
I think that actually was directed at MisterJB's comment about true justice being forcing Vengeance to watch helplessly as Anders kills mage after mage after mage.  I find it a little odd myself, as there's nothing just about killing innocent people just to make another person suffer, but it's not something to take so seriously you pick up your toys and go home...

The fact that Vengeance suffers IS justice, regardless of how said suffering is achieved. I'm going to Annul the Circle regardless and not for reasons of guilt or innocence but damage control. If I get to make the truly guily party in all of this disaster suffer in the process then, all the better.

Actually what you are describing isn't justice at all, but is actually vengeance, funnily enough.  When causing suffering is the objective, an element of spite is introduced with negates the idea of justice altogether.  Justice precludes that. 

Justify it however you want, but don't call it something it ain't.

[MisterJB]

Silfren wrote...
Actually what you are describing isn't justice at all, but is actually vengeance, funnily enough.  When causing suffering is the objective, an element of spite is introduced with negates the idea of justice altogether.  Justice precludes that. 

Justify it however you want, but don't call it something it ain't.

It does not; the objective of justice is to give each and all what they deserve; be it reward or punishment. Society does not punish; and pay attention at the usage of the word; criminals merely to ensure they can commit no further crimes but also to ensure they suffer for the crimes they commited. Of course, this varies from culture to culture; and it has been subject to many debates pitting punishment vs rehabilitation; but, historically and currently, justice has always walked hand in hand with suffering.

Justice became Vengeance not because it suddenly started killing those it considered to be guilty; which is something it always did; but because it ceased to distinguish between the guilty and the innocent. Alrik = guilty, Ella = innocent.

[Fast Jimmy]

greengoron89 wrote...

Anders will change his story depending on whether he's a friend or rival. He'll say Justice made him do it if he's a rival, and that he did it of his own accord if he's a friend.

That definitely makes him a liar... but which is the truth?

You can't handle the truth!

Did you order the Code Red?!

[Br3admax]

greengoron89 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Anders will change his story depending on whether he's a friend or rival. He'll say Justice made him do it if he's a rival, and that he did it of his own accord if he's a friend.

That definitely makes him a liar... but which is the truth?

Er, no, it doesn't make him a liar.  The two paths are the result of how his character changes in reaction to the way he is supported or opposed by Hawke.  It's not that he's changing his story, but that his character goes in a different direction, depending on whether your rivaled him or not.

I see. Perhaps I should dust off my copy of DA2...

...or not. I think I'd rather watch paint dry. I'll just take your word for it. :X

There aren't enough straws in the world for this thread to grasp. 

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I find it hilarious how the some of you guys are comparing to what Anders did to RL terrorist. That's just ridiculous at best.

Its really not. His actions even fit the traditional definition of terrorism perfectly.

What I find hilarious my friends, is how people will white knight Anders, up to and including trying to say that he didn't kill a single civillian despite blowing up an important building in a populated area.

People aren't born wanting to do terroristic acts. They were indoctrinated into it. The Chantry created Anders, and now they must suffer the consequences. Had the Chantry not force themselves to get involved in his live and the lives other mages like Uldred then perhaps the world of Thedas would be far better place to live in minus the Qun.

I'm Pro Anders not because hes a mage, but I see him as a former bully victim who's finally standing up for himself, and to others like him.  "I will not stand by and watch you treat all mages like criminals, while those who would lead us bow to their templar jailors!" How can anyone here hate on this man for  doing this? Most people are afraid of Mages because they were program to fear them by the Chantry. This gives the religious organization far more power, since people depend on the organization to protect themselves against mages to have them deal with the mages (Children and adults) by tossing them in the Circle where they essentinally become prisoners of the Chantry.

Lets just hypothetically say what Anders did cost the lives of the innocent civilians. Who drove him to do such an act like that? Who were the enablers? What was the motivation for Anders action? Anders blew up the Chantry for a reason.

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 09 octobre 2013 - 03:58 .

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

I find it hilarious how the some of you guys are comparing to what Anders did to RL terrorist. That's just ridiculous at best.

Its really not. His actions even fit the traditional definition of terrorism perfectly.

What I find hilarious my friends, is how people will white knight Anders, up to and including trying to say that he didn't kill a single civillian despite blowing up an important building in a populated area.

People aren't born wanting to do terroristic acts. They were indoctrinated into it. The Chantry created Anders, and now they must suffer the consequences. Had the Chantry not force themselves to get involved in his live and the lives other many other mages like Uldred then perhaps the world of Thedas would be far better place to live in minus the Qun.

I'm Pro Anders not because hes a mage, but I see him as a former bully victim who's finally standing up for himself, and to others like him.  "I will not stand by and watch you treat all mages like criminals, while those who would lead us bow to their templar jailors!" How can anyone here hate on this man for  doing this? Most people are afraid of Mages because they were program to fear them by the Chantry. This gives the religious organization far more power, since people depend on the organization to protect themselves against mages to have them deal with the mages (Children and adults) by tossing them in the Circle where they essentinally become prisoners of the Chantry.

Lets just hypothetically say what Anders did cost the lives of the innocent civilians. Who drove him to do such an act like that? Who were the enablers? What was the motivation for Anders action? Anders blew up the Chantry for a reason.

I would advocate that Anders might not have been so ready to blow up the Chantry if it had not been for Justice's influence. I can agree on the "bullying" standpoint, but that still does not justify the murder of Elthina and the destruction of the Chantry, her pacifism aside.

Modifié par eluvianix, 09 octobre 2013 - 03:52 .

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Nohvarr wrote...

[quote]I'd cry were it not for the fact that all of that was happening anyway, and the point of the war is to stop it.[/quote]
Then, considering what we know of DAI, it failed. All hell is literally breaking loose, Mages and Templars are focused more on killing one another than stopping a horde of demons, and innocent people across the land are being maimed, killed and worse in these terrible times. All because Anders couldn’t see a better solution than war.


[quote]Constant repetition of the "in chains" line intrigues me. You feel personally damaged by his action somehow, so you want to reassert your own power by taking control of him as a visceral thing, it seems.[/quote]
When someone decides to plunge the entire world into war because they themselves are not smart enough to figure out a better way to solve a problem I tend to take it kind of personal. Then there’s my dislike of people who kill innocents either to send a message or because they don’t care about collateral damage.


[quote]Meredith wanted to slaughter every mage in the Circle prior to what Anders did. [/quote]
“And I want a puppy, doesn’t mean I’m going to get one.”
-Elizabeth, Bioshock Infinite


[quote]How exactly is Anders to blame for “starting up a war” when it was already in progress to begin with? [/quote]
Well, the Divine and the Grand Cleric had both told Meredith “NO” and without their approval she’d need justification to enact her wish. Other Templars within her Command were taking steps to undermine her influence and her command. At the same times the nobles of Kirkwall we’re about ready to revolt against the Commander, and likely could’ve been talked into an alliance of coneniance since she was just as much a threat to them as she was to the Mages. Then Anders hands her the excuse she needs on a silver platter with a pretty pink bow wrapped around it. Not since Jar Jar Binks have I seen someone hand the obvious villain everything they need.


[quote]And here I thought your Quanri mage Inquisitor would learn a thing or two about the mistreatment of mages.[/quote]
Let’s see, as a Qunari Mage, my goal is to bring stability to the world in order to fight a greater threat. Anders played a significant role in plunging the world into Chaos. If he’s alive his Capture would deny the Templars a boogey man to use to continue their war, while denying the Mages a figure head to rally behind. Another step in getting both sides to stop their squabbling and focus on the real threat.
 

[quote]I don't quite endorse Anders' action, but I won't kill him for it.[/quote]
If you knew he was about to blow up the Chantry before hand, would you stop him?


[quote]I wouldn't call ok, but necessary. If someone doesn't take an stand, the Chantry will continue to opress people forever. The world sure as hell won't change simply by going down the streets shouting that the chantry is wrong.[/quote]
I’m sure that’s what the Templars tell their young initiats when they voice a concern about the treatment of mages.


[quote]Ridiculous. Elthina is Meredith's superior and could have called her off. [/quote]
[quote]If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
[/quote]


[quote]And if that was somehow impossible, she could have alerted the Chantry superiors, especially Leliana, that Meredith had effectively launched a coup against the Chantry. She deliberately tried to make the Chantry less interested in affairs in Kirkwall, making it seem as though everything was under control.[/quote]
Yes she was, because the Divine was considering calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall. So, she choose to let Meredith and Orisino calm down and work things out rather than have the Divine order an army into Kirkwall to do it for them. And then Anders rolls in an sets fire to everything.


[quote]Grand Cleric Elthina was an arrogant old hag that thought that she was untouchable. Anders showed her [/quote]
Let’s take a look at her actions

[quote]After Sebastian was forced into the Chantry, Elthina helped him escape in the dead of night, telling him that people should enter the Chantry through the front door, not the back. She gave him a purse full of gold and told him to go and live his life. Thanks to her words, Sebastian returned to the Chantry - through the front door this time - with his faith restored.
….
Hawke can show Ser Alrik's letter to Elthina after investigating his "Tranquil solution". Elthina says that Ser Alrik made a suggestion, but they turned him down. She insists that the Rite of Tranquility is a last resort.
◾ Hawke can inform Elthina that a templar used her seal to make a member of the guard ignore the Qunari delegates being abducted. Elthina replies that she hoped this would not go so far and that she will step in when it's time.
…..
Hawke tells Elthina that Petrice is behind the murder. Elthina replies that Petrice has erred in her judgment and that a court will decide her fate. Then she turns away and walks up the stairs. Seconds later a Qunari assassin kills Petrice with an arrow. Elthina looks back only to tell Hawke to send for the Viscount.
….
By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment[5] and, according to Ser Karras, Meredith has sent for the permission of the Divine in Val Royeaux instead.
In Hightown, Orsino is trying to convince the nobles that Meredith uses the fear of mages to take control of Kirkwall. Meredith accuses him of inciting a rebellion. Then Elthina arrives and asks the templars to "show the First Enchanter back to the Circle," adding an injunction for them to treat him "gently," and Meredith to "go back to the Gallows and calm down, like a good girl." If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
….
In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.
When Hawke returns only to pass the agent's message that Elthina must leave Kirkwall for Orlais because she will not be safe in the city, Elthina refuses to abandon her flock. She asserts that she is in no personal danger since nobody would dare attack the Grand Cleric. Later Elthina tells that she has been talking with both Orsino and Meredith and that Orsino "is not an unreasonable man;" she feels, therefore, that a compromise can be reached.
When Anders asks Hawke to help him gather ingredients for a "potion" and then to distract Elthina for him to get inside the Chantry unseen, Hawke can:
◾ Agree. Hawke comes to Elthina to discuss the mages and the templars. Elthina claims that she cannot take sides and that she is seeking to balance the needs of everyone. Then Anders shows up. Elthina comments that his soul is troubled and expresses her hope that he found a balm for it in the Chantry.[/quote]

She’s too passive, but that’s not a justification for murder.[/quote]

Oddly enough I think if you look at Elthina's actions more closely she's not passive in the least, but extremely manipulative.

[/quote]

Shes more than being extremely manipulative. Shes an enabler and very narcissistic.

[Fast Jimmy]

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

[Lord Raijin]

MisterJB wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...
But that means you have to tolerate taking him along. 

Ah, but sometimes there are perks for bringing Anders along.



His self awareness does him credit.

Is that the teachings from the Chantry that's talking?

[d-boy15]

Bully victim not supposed to go on killing spree on someone that try to make peace...

Ander is a terrorist, nothing more than that. You can agree with him whatever you like but blow up
the civilian target is an act of terror (if not, then 9/11 probably not too because it's the same)

Lord Raijin wrote...

Is that the teachings from the Chantry that's talking?

It's from his experience that he almost kill his fellow mage. Anders is unstable and he knows that.

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:04 .

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...
I would advocate that Anders might not have been so ready to blow up the Chantry if it had not been for Justice's influence. I can agree on the "bullying" standpoint, but that still does not justify the murder of Elthina and the destruction of the Chantry, her pacifism aside.

Elthina is no where near the level of pacifism. Not while mages are being forced to practice blood magic to protect themselves against her army of templars. She could've very well done something about it, but she did not.

[Silfren]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

The Chantry is not a civilian target.  I think you need to watch that cutscene again.  The ONLY people you see in it are Elthina and templars.  

[Silfren]

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...

[quote]Silfren wrote...

[quote]Nohvarr wrote...

[quote]I'd cry were it not for the fact that all of that was happening anyway, and the point of the war is to stop it.[/quote]
Then, considering what we know of DAI, it failed. All hell is literally breaking loose, Mages and Templars are focused more on killing one another than stopping a horde of demons, and innocent people across the land are being maimed, killed and worse in these terrible times. All because Anders couldn’t see a better solution than war.


[quote]Constant repetition of the "in chains" line intrigues me. You feel personally damaged by his action somehow, so you want to reassert your own power by taking control of him as a visceral thing, it seems.[/quote]
When someone decides to plunge the entire world into war because they themselves are not smart enough to figure out a better way to solve a problem I tend to take it kind of personal. Then there’s my dislike of people who kill innocents either to send a message or because they don’t care about collateral damage.


[quote]Meredith wanted to slaughter every mage in the Circle prior to what Anders did. [/quote]
“And I want a puppy, doesn’t mean I’m going to get one.”
-Elizabeth, Bioshock Infinite


[quote]How exactly is Anders to blame for “starting up a war” when it was already in progress to begin with? [/quote]
Well, the Divine and the Grand Cleric had both told Meredith “NO” and without their approval she’d need justification to enact her wish. Other Templars within her Command were taking steps to undermine her influence and her command. At the same times the nobles of Kirkwall we’re about ready to revolt against the Commander, and likely could’ve been talked into an alliance of coneniance since she was just as much a threat to them as she was to the Mages. Then Anders hands her the excuse she needs on a silver platter with a pretty pink bow wrapped around it. Not since Jar Jar Binks have I seen someone hand the obvious villain everything they need.


[quote]And here I thought your Quanri mage Inquisitor would learn a thing or two about the mistreatment of mages.[/quote]
Let’s see, as a Qunari Mage, my goal is to bring stability to the world in order to fight a greater threat. Anders played a significant role in plunging the world into Chaos. If he’s alive his Capture would deny the Templars a boogey man to use to continue their war, while denying the Mages a figure head to rally behind. Another step in getting both sides to stop their squabbling and focus on the real threat.
 

[quote]I don't quite endorse Anders' action, but I won't kill him for it.[/quote]
If you knew he was about to blow up the Chantry before hand, would you stop him?


[quote]I wouldn't call ok, but necessary. If someone doesn't take an stand, the Chantry will continue to opress people forever. The world sure as hell won't change simply by going down the streets shouting that the chantry is wrong.[/quote]
I’m sure that’s what the Templars tell their young initiats when they voice a concern about the treatment of mages.


[quote]Ridiculous. Elthina is Meredith's superior and could have called her off. [/quote]
[quote]If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
[/quote]


[quote]And if that was somehow impossible, she could have alerted the Chantry superiors, especially Leliana, that Meredith had effectively launched a coup against the Chantry. She deliberately tried to make the Chantry less interested in affairs in Kirkwall, making it seem as though everything was under control.[/quote]
Yes she was, because the Divine was considering calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall. So, she choose to let Meredith and Orisino calm down and work things out rather than have the Divine order an army into Kirkwall to do it for them. And then Anders rolls in an sets fire to everything.


[quote]Grand Cleric Elthina was an arrogant old hag that thought that she was untouchable. Anders showed her [/quote]
Let’s take a look at her actions

[quote]After Sebastian was forced into the Chantry, Elthina helped him escape in the dead of night, telling him that people should enter the Chantry through the front door, not the back. She gave him a purse full of gold and told him to go and live his life. Thanks to her words, Sebastian returned to the Chantry - through the front door this time - with his faith restored.
….
Hawke can show Ser Alrik's letter to Elthina after investigating his "Tranquil solution". Elthina says that Ser Alrik made a suggestion, but they turned him down. She insists that the Rite of Tranquility is a last resort.
◾ Hawke can inform Elthina that a templar used her seal to make a member of the guard ignore the Qunari delegates being abducted. Elthina replies that she hoped this would not go so far and that she will step in when it's time.
…..
Hawke tells Elthina that Petrice is behind the murder. Elthina replies that Petrice has erred in her judgment and that a court will decide her fate. Then she turns away and walks up the stairs. Seconds later a Qunari assassin kills Petrice with an arrow. Elthina looks back only to tell Hawke to send for the Viscount.
….
By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment[5] and, according to Ser Karras, Meredith has sent for the permission of the Divine in Val Royeaux instead.
In Hightown, Orsino is trying to convince the nobles that Meredith uses the fear of mages to take control of Kirkwall. Meredith accuses him of inciting a rebellion. Then Elthina arrives and asks the templars to "show the First Enchanter back to the Circle," adding an injunction for them to treat him "gently," and Meredith to "go back to the Gallows and calm down, like a good girl." If the Champion asks Elthina why she does nothing when she is in charge of the templars and the Circle, Elthina retorts that Hawke has "quite the estimation of [her] abilities."
….
In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.
When Hawke returns only to pass the agent's message that Elthina must leave Kirkwall for Orlais because she will not be safe in the city, Elthina refuses to abandon her flock. She asserts that she is in no personal danger since nobody would dare attack the Grand Cleric. Later Elthina tells that she has been talking with both Orsino and Meredith and that Orsino "is not an unreasonable man;" she feels, therefore, that a compromise can be reached.
When Anders asks Hawke to help him gather ingredients for a "potion" and then to distract Elthina for him to get inside the Chantry unseen, Hawke can:
◾ Agree. Hawke comes to Elthina to discuss the mages and the templars. Elthina claims that she cannot take sides and that she is seeking to balance the needs of everyone. Then Anders shows up. Elthina comments that his soul is troubled and expresses her hope that he found a balm for it in the Chantry.[/quote]

She’s too passive, but that’s not a justification for murder.[/quote]

Oddly enough I think if you look at Elthina's actions more closely she's not passive in the least, but extremely manipulative.

[/quote]

Shes more than being extremely manipulative. Shes an enabler and very narcissistic.

[/quote]

I don't know that I'd consider her narcissistic, but I think I could see the argument for it.  As fior enabling, well, no, that just fits in with her manipulation.  She's not just some innocent old lady who wanted to hand-wave things, if you look deeper at her actions, there's real calcuation going on, presumably to shore up her own power and influence.

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

The Chantry is not a civilian target.  I think you need to watch that cutscene again.  The ONLY people you see in it are Elthina and templars.  

Because, if it not in cutscene then it not happen right?

Well, I guess Templar rape and abuse mage are not true because I never saw that in game.

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:11 .

[Lord Raijin]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

No it is not a cop out. Her Codex mention that while people highly respect her in Kirkwall.. Some have secretly written to the Divine to replace her because shes ineffective, and allows Meredith too much free run, especially slight in the fact that Mereidth wants to become the new Viscount of Kirkwall. You would think that this old woman would remind her Knight-Commander what her duties are, and how it is not her postiton to play politics.

By the way during the short clip, as the chantry was being blown up, I only saw a few templars the Elthina inside the Chantry. I did not see nobody else, so no. Anders was not targeting innocent civilians.

[Nohvarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

No it is not a cop out. Her Codex mention that while people highly respect her in Kirkwall.. Some have secretly written to the Divine to replace her because shes ineffective, and allows Meredith too much free run, especially slight in the fact that Mereidth wants to become the new Viscount of Kirkwall. You would think that this old woman would remind her Knight-Commander what her duties are, and how it is not her postiton to play politics.

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment

In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.

By the way during the short clip, as the chantry was being blown up, I only saw a few templars the Elthina inside the Chantry. I did not see nobody else, so no. Anders was not targeting innocent civilians.

So because you see a tight shot on one room in a large complex you assume no one else was killed?

edit:

before:


during:


after:

Modifié par Nohvarr, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:35 .

[Lord Raijin]

[quote]d-boy15 wrote...

Bully victim not supposed to go on killing spree on someone that try to make peace...

Ander is a terrorist, nothing more than that. You can agree with him whatever you like but blow up
the civilian target is an act of terror (if not, then 9/11 probably not too because it's the same)[/quote]

LOL Elthina wants peace? okaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Anders must have learned his terrorist training inside the Chantry run Circle. Way to go Chantry you've created a terrorist.

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...

Is that the teachings from the Chantry that's talking?

[/quote]

It's from his experience that he almost kill his fellow mage. Anders is unstable and he knows that.
[/quote]

Anders is unstable because the Chantry made him that way due to the years of systematic abuse.

[wolfhowwl]

Unlike his fanboys here, Anders at least has the guts to admit he killed innocent people.

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

The Chantry is not a civilian target.  I think you need to watch that cutscene again.  The ONLY people you see in it are Elthina and templars.  

Because, if it not in cutscene then it not happen right?

Well, I guess Templar rape and abuse mage are not true because I never saw that in game.

The claim was that the Chantry would only have had people in it who were not connected to the Templars, when this is blatantly shown to be false because the cutscene very clearly shows templars in the building.  There's also an argument to be made that since this happened late at night, there weren't likely to be many civilians in the building, if any.  But to address your own snipe, templar rape and abuse is both directly mentioned and strongly alluded to, so the lack of any custscenes depicting it is irrelevant.  (Notwithstanding we DO have a cutscene of an impending rape, but who's counting, right?)

Again, though, my salient point was that the Chantry is by no means a civilian target.  People really have got to get over this misconception of the Chantry as being equivalent to the little corner church town the street.  Last I checked, no strictly religious body that is solely concerned with the spiritual wellbeing of its congregants and the occasional feeding of the poor and sheltering of the homeless, has its own standing army and the power and authority to carry out exalted marches on entire populations.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:33 .

[Reaverwind]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

The Chantry is not a civilian target.  I think you need to watch that cutscene again.  The ONLY people you see in it are Elthina and templars.  

Because, if it not in cutscene then it not happen right?

Well, I guess Templar rape and abuse mage are not true because I never saw that in game.

Indeed.

[Vit246]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

And herein lies the problem with DA2: Bioware misrepresented the overall relationship of the Chantry and the Templar Order.

The Chantry is not some poor little local church on the corner down the lane. Its an international organization that holds economic, military, and political power.

The Chantry and the Templars are not two separate autonomous organizations. The Chantry is the controlling body and the Templar Order has been its military arm and subordinate for 900 years. Grand Clerics are the legal superiors and appointees of Knight-Commanders and all Templars. Whatever the Templars do most of the time, they do so with the explicit or implicit permission of the Chantry.

Elthina as Grand Cleric had authority and power over Meredith. She appointed her in the first place. She could have done something. But she chose not to. Never once did she actually try to exercise her authority over her. And before you tell me otherwise, there's no evidence that Meredith would have disobeyed her or that other Templars would have sided against Elthina. Elthina never actually tried to do anything. Give her direct orders. Dismiss her. Send her away. Threaten to do a lyrium embargo. Tattletale on her to the Seekers and the Divine. 

Modifié par Vit246, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:39 .