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[Nohvarr]

Vit246 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Enablers? That's an incredible cop out.

He violently took out a civilian target that, aside from Elthina, would have been had only Chantry workers and followers who had nothing to do with the Templars actions. Instead of attacking the actual perpetrators of the actions against the people he viewed as his oppressors, he instead attacked the only source of authority who could make any change and left his enemies at full force, ready to take those aggression out on the Mages.

He set up hundreds of Mages for the slaughter, not freedom. Admire that? Never.

And herein lies the problem with DA2: Bioware misrepresented the overall relationship of the Chantry and the Templar Order.

The Chantry and the Templars are not two separate autonomous organizations. The Chantry is the controlling body and the Templar Order has been its military arm and subordinate for 900 years. Grand Clerics are the legal superiors and appointees of Knight-Commanders and all Templars. Whatever the Templars do most of the time, they do so with the explicit or implicit permission of the Chantry.

Elthina as Grand Cleric had authority and power over Meredith. She appointed her in the first place. She could have done something. But she chose not to. Never once did she actually try to exercise her authority over her. And before you tell me otherwise, there's no evidence that Meredith would have disobeyed her or that other Templars would have sided against Elthina. Elthina never actually tried to do anything. Give her direct orders. Dismiss her. Send her away. Tattletale on her to the Seekers and the Divine.

So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

Modifié par Nohvarr, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:38 .

[Silfren]

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...
[quote]d-boy15 wrote...

Bully victim not supposed to go on killing spree on someone that try to make peace...

Ander is a terrorist, nothing more than that. You can agree with him whatever you like but blow up
the civilian target is an act of terror (if not, then 9/11 probably not too because it's the same)[/quote]

LOL Elthina wants peace? okaaaaaaaaaaaay.

Anders must have learned his terrorist training inside the Chantry run Circle. Way to go Chantry you've created a terrorist. [/quote]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Is that the teachings from the Chantry that's talking?

[/quote]
It's from his experience that he almost kill his fellow mage. Anders is unstable and he knows that.
[/quote]

[quote]Anders is unstable because the Chantry made him that way due to the years of systematic abuse.[/quote]

Gotta disagree with you here.  I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Anders' statement there derives from Chantry teachings.  Anders is clearly shown in Awakening and DA2 both to reject Chantry doctrines, not to have internalized them the way that Keili did.  If she was the one saying that, you'd have a point.  But no, Anders' line here is directly taken from his fears about what he is becoming since the incident with the mage girl he (nearly) killed.

He is unstable because of the way his anger corrupted a spirit that took up residence within him.  Yes, the Chantry is ultimately responsible for this in the sense that it's Chantry practices that led to Anders' rage in the first place, but I think you're going a little too far in dismissing his own responsibility.  Anders himself acknowledges that he made a very grave mistake in letting Justice possess him.

ETA:  The quotes were borked; attempts to fix ended in failure, and I gave up.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:46 .

[d-boy15]

Well... at least a reasonable pro-mage still exist.

[AresKeith]

I was wondering when the defense of the Chantry cutscene was gonna show up

[Lord Raijin]

d-boy15 wrote...
Because, if it not in cutscene then it not happen right?

Well, I guess Templar rape and abuse mage are not true because I never saw that in game.

<coughcough>




</coughcough>

[Vit246]

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

Besides, aren't you sorta making my point about claims that the Chantry has nothing to do with Templar actions?

Modifié par Vit246, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:56 .

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr wrote...

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment

In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.

In the mean time the biggest threat in the city is not the mages but Knight-Commander Meredith.

By the way during the short clip, as the chantry was being blown up, I only saw a few templars the Elthina inside the Chantry. I did not see nobody else, so no. Anders was not targeting innocent civilians.

So because you see a tight shot on one room in a large complex you assume no one else was killed?

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

Modifié par Lord Raijin, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:56 .

[Nohvarr]

Vit246 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

It's in the wiki if you don't believe me.

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment

In the Chantry, Hawke witnesses Sebastian asking what is Elthina's stance on the issue of the mages and the templars. Elthina states that she favors peace and if the Maker is merciful, he will help them find it. She confesses that she did not expect things to deteriorate so fast. Then she tells him that the Divine sent an agent to Kirkwall to assess the danger of the Free Marches becoming another Imperium. Elthina is afraid that the Divine will treat the whole city as enemies, so she asks the Champion and Sebastian to meet the agent and to convince her that drastic measures won't be required. Elthina adds that the Divine has heard her protests already.

In the mean time the biggest threat in the city is not the mages but Knight-Commander Meredith.

By the way during the short clip, as the chantry was being blown up, I only saw a few templars the Elthina inside the Chantry. I did not see nobody else, so no. Anders was not targeting innocent civilians.

So because you see a tight shot on one room in a large complex you assume no one else was killed?

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

Actually, she didn't excute him if you brought him back to the Templars...

[d-boy15]

Lord Raijin wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...
Because, if it not in cutscene then it not happen right?

Well, I guess Templar rape and abuse mage are not true because I never saw that in game.

<coughcough>




</coughcough>

May be they lie? talking are cheap. 

By the way, it's a sarcasm because you extremist pro-mage seem to think Chantry all out evil while Mage is
an innocent cute little people who do no harm to anyone, "they can't be evil! if they are Chantry force them to
be, it's Chantry fault! all of it"  

While they seem to forget about the Elven Mage who murder his wife for blood magic, but that probably a
plot to framed pure heart Mage by Templar anyway. 

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:10 .

[Hellion Rex]

Nohvarr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

It's in the wiki if you don't believe me.

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

I feel like if he targeted Meredith instead of Elthina, he might have nixed the whole situation faster. But even killing Meredith might have escalated the situation even quicker.

[Silfren]

Nohvarr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

It's in the wiki if you don't believe me.

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

Then you've missed the point entirely.  Anders wasn't merely trying to get revenge on Meredith.  Starting a war was precisely what he was aiming to do.  Killing Meredith wouldn't have accomplished that.  And you've overloked the irrefutable fact that the Chantry is the authority over the templars.  Grand Cleric Elthina is quite literally Meredith's direct superior.  Anders' actions make perfect sense in that regard:  He didn't nonsensically target a beloved leader who was an innocent person trying to maintain peace: he targeted a Chantry priest only one step beneath the Divine in power and authority, and one who was systematically ignoring the abuses of her templars and her knight commander--people who were directly under her authority, who answered directly to her.  Her "neutrality" bullsh*t wasn't actually maintaining peace, it was simply allowing the templars and Meredith to continue their abuses unchecked--that's what happens when you claim neutrality: you effectively side with the group that has all the power, and in this case that was the templars under Meredith. 

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr wrote...

So because you see a tight shot on one room in a large complex you assume no one else was killed?

edit:

before:


during:


after:

What am I suppose to be looking at on these 3 photos? Lets see some screenshots of what was inside the Chantry during the night and during the daytime.

Oh and when you go to the Gallows during the daytime a certain location (I forgot where; I haven't played DA2 in a while) you can hear someone getting beaten. Their was one mage who was shivering. She seems to be terrified about something. Perhabs she was recently raped by a templar?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

It's in the wiki if you don't believe me.

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

Then you've missed the point entirely.  Anders wasn't merely trying to get revenge on Meredith.  Starting a war was precisely what he was aiming to do.  Killing Meredith wouldn't have accomplished that.  And you've overloked the irrefutable fact that the Chantry is the authority over the templars.  Grand Cleric Elthina is quite literally Meredith's direct superior.  Anders' actions make perfect sense in that regard:  He didn't nonsensically target a beloved leader who was an innocent person trying to maintain peace: he targeted a Chantry priest only one step beneath the Divine in power and authority, and one who was systematically ignoring the abuses of her templars and her knight commander--people who were directly under her authority, who answered directly to her.  Her "neutrality" bullsh*t wasn't actually maintaining peace, it was simply allowing the templars and Meredith to continue their abuses unchecked--that's what happens when you claim neutrality: you effectively side with the group that has all the power, and in this case that was the templars under Meredith. 

I agree with your words entirely. Do you think it justifies Elthina's death though?

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Anders can also murder a mage in cold blood

I would argue that Justice had most of the control in that situation, whereas attacking the Chantry was a mixture of the two.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Vit246 wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...
So the following didn't happen

By the beginning of the Act, Elthina has rejected Meredith's request for the Right of Annulment 

This was in the game? I honestly cannot remember. Because this comes only from a Gaider post.

It's in the wiki if you don't believe me.

You don't think Meredith didn't kill innocent mages? What about the poor virgin mage that escaped from the circle? She was determine to execute him. It seems like Meredith is an execution addict. How many innocent people did she execute off camera?

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

Then you've missed the point entirely.  Anders wasn't merely trying to get revenge on Meredith.  Starting a war was precisely what he was aiming to do.  Killing Meredith wouldn't have accomplished that.  And you've overloked the irrefutable fact that the Chantry is the authority over the templars.  Grand Cleric Elthina is quite literally Meredith's direct superior.  Anders' actions make perfect sense in that regard:  He didn't nonsensically target a beloved leader who was an innocent person trying to maintain peace: he targeted a Chantry priest only one step beneath the Divine in power and authority, and one who was systematically ignoring the abuses of her templars and her knight commander--people who were directly under her authority, who answered directly to her.  Her "neutrality" bullsh*t wasn't actually maintaining peace, it was simply allowing the templars and Meredith to continue their abuses unchecked--that's what happens when you claim neutrality: you effectively side with the group that has all the power, and in this case that was the templars under Meredith. 

I agree with your words entirely. Do you think it justifies Elthina's death though?

Absolutely.  Under no circumstance do I think Elthina was a decent, good-hearted person who was somehow trying really hard to do the right thing and was just totally innocent.  I think she was conniving and manipulative down to her core.  For cripes' sake, pay attention to how she behaves in the scene with Petrice...!  From the looks of things, Petrice appeared to think she had the Grand Cleric's sanction for her actions--she is utterly stunned when Elthina turns her back and walks away...and Elthina doesn't exactly look either surprised or unhappy at Petrice's untimely death.   That is NOT the behavior of a sweet, gentle old lady who was only trying to keep the peace.  I honestly don't understand why people think of her that way.  There's nothing innocent about her.  But even if you disregard most of that, there's no denying the fact that Elthina DID have the authority to rein Meredith in, she HAD to know about the abuses that were going on, and she ABSOLUTELY knew that Meredith was breaking Chantry law in her usurpation of secular law.  She knew about all that and had the authority and obligation to put a stop to it, and instead she stood by and watched.  

You're damned right I think her death was justified.

Modifié par Silfren, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:20 .

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

I would argue that Justice had most of the control in that situation, whereas attacking the Chantry was a mixture of the two.

They are largely the same person at this point so why bother seperating the two?

Touche.

[Star fury]

Lord Raijin wrote...

My god, I forgot how pathetically bad cutscenes were in DA2. 

[Hellion Rex]

Star fury wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

My god, I forgot how pathetically bad cutscenes were in DA2. 

But...I thought it looked cool....

[Silfren]

Star fury wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

My god, I forgot how pathetically bad cutscenes were in DA2. 

It's the most powerful scene in the game. What's so bad about it?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

My god, I forgot how pathetically bad cutscenes were in DA2. 

It's the most powerful scene in the game. What's so bad about it?

I agree. I had a holy sh*t moment. I was like, "Anders, what the hell did you do?!?!"

[Lord Raijin]

Silfren wrote...
Then you've missed the point entirely.  Anders wasn't merely trying to get revenge on Meredith.  Starting a war was precisely what he was aiming to do.  Killing Meredith wouldn't have accomplished that.  And you've overloked the irrefutable fact that the Chantry is the authority over the templars.  Grand Cleric Elthina is quite literally Meredith's direct superior.  Anders' actions make perfect sense in that regard:  He didn't nonsensically target a beloved leader who was an innocent person trying to maintain peace: he targeted a Chantry priest only one step beneath the Divine in power and authority, and one who was systematically ignoring the abuses of her templars and her knight commander--people who were directly under her authority, who answered directly to her.  Her "neutrality" bullsh*t wasn't actually maintaining peace, it was simply allowing the templars and Meredith to continue their abuses unchecked--that's what happens when you claim neutrality: you effectively side with the group that has all the power, and in this case that was the templars under Meredith. 

Anders did try to reason with Elthina, but apparently it came falling onto deaf ears.

If Elthina was truly on the neutral side she should've requested the presense of the Seekers to investigate Meredith and her templars plus deal with apostate Mages within the city wall.

This is why I call Elthina an enabler. She enabled Meredith to abuse as many mages that she can, even to the point where they demostrated destructive behavior (Blood magic) out of desperation. Orsino is a prime example.