727 réponses à ce sujet

[Hellion Rex]

Morocco Mole wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

Plus the graphics, which is part my issue with the art style of the game

DA2 is a very, very, VERY ugly game. I agree.

What is your opinion of how DAI is looking so far in comparison?

[Hellion Rex]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Star fury wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

But...I thought it looked cool....

Biower thought that too apparently, as with DA2 opening "cutscenes", where they violate one of the most important rules - "show, don't tell".

I thought that this scene did pretty well. This scene and the scene of Meredith being petrified were pretty cool.

I thought the scene of Meredith's petrification was pretty neat myself, until The Evil Writer Redux ruined it for me.<_<

At the risk of me sounding like a noob, dare I ask what the Evil Writer Redux means?

Suffice to say that for a while there was a running joke about 'shipping Meredith and Orsino (Meresino was the name, I believe), and if you look at one of the scenes of Meredith while she's being transformed...it looks like something else is happening.  Which I would have happily gone through my life blissfully unaware of, if not for TEWR.

Oh dear:blink:. I get what you mean now.

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

Star fury wrote...

eluvianix wrote...

But...I thought it looked cool....

Biower thought that too apparently, as with DA2 opening "cutscenes", where they violate one of the most important rules - "show, don't tell".

I thought that this scene did pretty well. This scene and the scene of Meredith being petrified were pretty cool.

I thought the scene of Meredith's petrification was pretty neat myself, until The Evil Writer Redux ruined it for me.<_<

At the risk of me sounding like a noob, dare I ask what the Evil Writer Redux means?

Suffice to say that for a while there was a running joke about 'shipping Meredith and Orsino (Meresino was the name, I believe), and if you look at one of the scenes of Meredith while she's being transformed...it looks like something else is happening.  Which I would have happily gone through my life blissfully unaware of, if not for TEWR.

Oh dear:blink:. I get what you mean now.

In case I misinterpreted your question, TEWR is The Ethereal Writer Redux.  A while back I mistyped his name as Evil, and I still do that sometimes when I'm very tired.  Quite probably you could call it a freudian slip revealing what I think about him subconsciously, though in the case of THAT scene, it's all too deliberate, I assure you.

[movieguyabw]

Silfren wrote...

eluvianix wrote...


At the risk of me sounding like a noob, dare I ask what the Evil Writer Redux means?

Suffice to say that for a while there was a running joke about 'shipping Meredith and Orsino (Meresino was the name, I believe), and if you look at one of the scenes of Meredith while she's being transformed...it looks like something else is happening.  Which I would have happily gone through my life blissfully unaware of, if not for TEWR.

I, too, am curious what you're talking about in regards to this Evil Writer Redux...  could someone explain?


Edit:  woop  'd

Modifié par movieguyabw, 09 octobre 2013 - 05:48 .

[Star fury]

Silfren wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

My god, I forgot how pathetically bad cutscenes were in DA2. 

It's the most powerful scene in the game. What's so bad about it?

Cut scene's visual quality is awful, it looks cheap. 

Hmm.  I'm not a huge gamer, so I don't have that many other games to compare it too, but I never thought this cutscene's quality was all that terrible, or cheap-looking.  Especially considering the entire scene, and not a single screenshot.  *shrug*

i think I wrote a cutscene, not a screenshot. Could be wrong though. You could compare cutscenes of DA2 and ME1&2. Battle of Citadel, Suicide mission etc. 

[Star fury]

Morocco Mole wrote...
DA2 is a very, very, VERY ugly game. I agree. 

Pretty much.

[Ravensword]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

And that Justifies killing the Grand Cleric and everyone else in the Chantry at the time how? If he'd put a Knife in Meredith I honestly wouldn't care...but no he used a bomb, on everyone in a large complex to start a war. If Anders wanted Meredith dead then he should've gone after her and not the grand Cleric who has already blocked the Commander from enacting the ROA.

His actions don't even make sense. He kills a beloved city leader, that is trying to prevent the Divine from calling for an Exalted March against Kirkwall, while keeping the peace long enough for Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. I mean if the goal was to throw all mages in Kirkwall under the bus by thunder it worked.

The Grand Cleric is nowhere near innocent. Calling her innocent and frangle is like giving the best Grandma award to someone like:

Dorothea Puente

She is Meredith boss.. And had the authority to stop Meredith from engaging total war against the mages, but did she do that? No. Shes not a "beloved city leader" not after what she has done to Kirkwall.

>implying Elethina is anything like Dorothea Puente.

[Lord Raijin]

d-boy15 wrote...

May be they lie? talking are cheap. 

By the way, it's a sarcasm because you extremist pro-mage seem to think Chantry all out evil while Mage is
an innocent cute little people who do no harm to anyone, "they can't be evil! if they are Chantry force them to
be, it's Chantry fault! all of it"  

While they seem to forget about the Elven Mage who murder his wife for blood magic, but that probably a
plot to framed pure heart Mage by Templar anyway. 

Are you also telling me that Cullen is a liar too when he says this?





Talk is cheap, I guess

And yes as an "extremist" pro-mage I very much think the Chantry is flat out evil. It is a dangerous religion organzation that does more harm than good. They actually convince people to fear and to abandon their mage children.  Does James Warren "Jim" Jones ring a bell to you? No I do not think all Mages are innocent and cute. The Elven mage who murdered his wife turn to blood magic because he was being chased down by the chantries hunters. He would've never had done what he did if he was allowed to live in peace without the Chantries hunters treating him like a prisoner.

I am not just pro Mage but also pro Circle. The Circle serves a purpose to help educate young mages to control their power in a safe enviorment. I'm also not against the rite of tranquality if the mages themselves request it. I do not believe in using it in a form of a punishment like the situation with Jowan in the Circle tower.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...
Funnily enough, you used the one mage that was so utterly harmless (and pathetic) that Meredith actually laughed and let him go back to the Circle.

Though I fail to see how Meredith murdering people excuses Anders for doing the same. Which is the topic we are discussing. Anders murdering non-combatants by blowing up the Chantry.

It's called a revolution my friend. Unfortunelty not all the problems can be resolved through peace. You people tend to forget that mages want their freedom and to be left alone by the Chantry; it is their goals. Why are they branded as a criminal for fighting for what they believe in?

By the way the Chantry protects each other own ass. If you side with Sister/Mother petrice the only punishment that Elthina gave to her was a demotion. She caused the Qunari to attack the city.  She not only had the viscount be murdered by the Qunari, but she also murdered the viscount son, and tried to blame it on them. You would think Elthina would have her executed for such crimes that she commited.

The Chantry did far more damage to the city than Anders did. Look how many innocent people were murdered because one Chantry mother wanted to pick a fight with the Qunari.

[d-boy15]

Lord Raijin wrote...


Are you also telling me that Cullen is a liar too when he says this? 





Talk is cheap, I guess

And yes as an "extremist" pro-mage I very much think the Chantry is flat out evil. It is a dangerous religion organzation that does more harm than good. They actually convince people to fear and to abandon their mage children.  Does James Warren "Jim" Jones ring a bell to you? No I do not think all Mages are innocent and cute. The Elven mage who murdered his wife turn to blood magic because he was being chased down by the chantries hunters. He would've never had done what he did if he was allowed to live in peace without the Chantries hunters treating him like a prisoner.

I am not just pro Mage but also pro Circle. The Circle serves a purpose to help educate young mages to control their power in a safe enviorment. I'm also not against the rite of tranquality if the mages themselves request it. I do not believe in using it in a form of a punishment like the situation with Jowan in the Circle tower.

/pic

And what's wrong about what Cullen said? Normal people can't blow the whole town all by themselves. Mages
can which why they're need to be in checked. If they running free like normal people, some of them probably kill
people or do a terrible thing, are you gonna deny that possibilities? 

About what Mages can't be friend, if Templar allow themselve to be close with Mages, there highly a chance 
they gonna get munipulated. The problem is both side didn't trust each other and you can't blame all that on
Templar or Chantry alone. Plus, it's actually reasonable for Cullen to believe that after DA:O event.

The Circle is system is ok but Mages can't let to govern themselves like they wanted, DA2 show that even the
experienced Mages like Orsino can fall in to curiosity led to blood magic. They need to be in checked by other
faction that not share their interest.

Also, if the Elven guys kill Templar who pursuit him that would be understandable but he just come out and kill
his wife for no reason at all (Hawke didn't even intercept him at that point). And his action had nothing to do with
Templar at all because there is no Templar there and even there is, that not justify his crime.

I don't like Templar more than Mages, In fact I support Mages in my game but blamed everything on Chantry is
too bias, they had their reason to fear. 


 

[d-boy15]

Lord Raijin wrote...

It's called a revolution my friend. Unfortunelty not all the problems can be resolved through peace. You people tend to forget that mages want their freedom and to be left alone by the Chantry; it is their goals. Why are they branded as a criminal for fighting for what they believe in? 

Somthing to do with blood magic and killing peoples? By that logic the person who responsibility for 9/11 is not a 
criminal 'cause he do what he believe is right, the faction that use chemical weapons in Syria is not a criminal
because it's a war, who care what weapon they're use, people die anyway. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

By the way the Chantry protects each other own ass. If you side with Sister/Mother petrice the only punishment that Elthina gave to her was a demotion. She caused the Qunari to attack the city.  She not only had the viscount be murdered by the Qunari, but she also murdered the viscount son, and tried to blame it on them. You would think Elthina would have her executed for such crimes that she commited.

Elthina didn't protect Petrice, what you want? beheaded her right there? How about let the law take care of that
like it supposed to be.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Chantry did far more damage to the city than Anders did. Look how many innocent people were murdered because one Chantry mother wanted to pick a fight with the Qunari.

And it's the action of one person, not the whole Chantry. By that logic we can count all free mage to be a criminal
like Quintin or the whole Tavinter as an evil for what Denarius had done.

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 octobre 2013 - 07:44 .

[Nohvarr]

Absolutely. Under no circumstance do I think Elthina was a decent, good-hearted person who was somehow trying really hard to do the right thing and was just totally innocent. I think she was conniving and manipulative down to her core. For cripes' sake, pay attention to how she behaves in the scene with Petrice...! From the looks of things, Petrice appeared to think she had the Grand Cleric's sanction for her actions--she is utterly stunned when Elthina turns her back and walks away...and Elthina doesn't exactly look either surprised or unhappy at Petrice's untimely death. That is NOT the behavior of a sweet, gentle old lady who was only trying to keep the peace. I honestly don't understand why people think of her that way.

Then you saw something I did not. I read that scene as Petrice thinking her position in the Chantry would guarantee her protection, and the Grand Clerics decision for Petrice to stand trial for her actions and essentially siding with the Qunari catching the Petrice completely by surprise. I grant that the GC knew she was likely condemning Petrice to death by removing that protection but that dosen’t mean she’d been using the woman as a catspaw of some type.

There's nothing innocent about her. But even if you disregard most of that, there's no denying the fact that Elthina DID have the authority to rein Meredith in, she HAD to know about the abuses that were going on, and she ABSOLUTELY knew that Meredith was breaking Chantry law in her usurpation of secular law. She knew about all that and had the authority and obligation to put a stop to it, and instead she stood by and watched.

You're damned right I think her death was justified.

That’s the thing, she was a moderating influence on the Knight-commander, I’ve posted some examples of Eltheina’s actions which point to her denying the more extreme desires of the templars. Heck even Meredith at one point

denies Ser Otto Alrik the use of his "Tranquil Solution" plan to turn all mages in Kirkwall into Tranquils.

Which likely occurred before she got the lyrium blade which seems to have driven her slowly insane. So at one point Meredith was likely easier to control but with the sword whispering in her ear it likely became harder for Elthina to ride heard on her. Complicating the situation was the Divines concern over the situation. Elthina likely feared that removing Meredith (or at least trying to do so) might cause the Divine to call for an exalted march against the city, something she seriously did not want to occur, which further limited her options. That mixed with a belief Meredith would eventually see reason was her real downfall.

She is Meredith boss.. And had the authority to stop Meredith from engaging total war against the mages, but did she do that? No. Shes not a "beloved city leader" not after what she has done to Kirkwall.

But she did prevent total war against the Mages, first when one Templar wanted to enact a ‘Tranquil Solution’ and again when Meredith was calling for the ROA. Beyond that she appeared to be trying to encourage Meredith and Orisino to work out their differences. Her error was assuming Meredith could be reasoned with, but since Meredith originally opposed the Tranquil Solution, Elthina misjudged the Knight-Commander and the situation. That said,m as has been pointed out several times she still had enough influence to keep Meredith from going to far, which ended when Anders killed her specifically because he didn’t want any compromise.

By the way the Chantry protects each other own ass. If you side with Sister/Mother petrice the only punishment that Elthina gave to her was a demotion. She caused the Qunari to attack the city. She not only had the viscount be murdered by the Qunari, but she also murdered the viscount son, and tried to blame it on them. You would think Elthina would have her executed for such crimes that she commited.

So the Grand Cleric is supposed to demote Petrice based on what evidence? You’re the one who informs Elthina about the truth of Petrices actions. Without you she has no reason to do anything to Petrice. If you choose to remain silent, Petrice going without punishment is your fault

The Chantry did far more damage to the city than Anders did. Look how many innocent people were murdered because one Chantry mother wanted to pick a fight with the Qunari.

That’s like blaming all mages for Anders blowing up the Chantry.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 09 octobre 2013 - 09:39 .

[Dubozz]

Dave of Canada wrote...

How can a corpse have a role?

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Because when you start sacrificing innocent people and bombing buildings full of innocent people you lose any claim to the word innocent. Revolutions are not clean affairs. They are bloody, violent, and can oftentimes lead to a more oppressive regime.

Since when did Anders started sacrificing innocent people? He's not a blood mage you know   And how do you know that the Chantry was full of "innocent" people at the time? Did David mention about this? Did it mention it in the novel book? I only saw a a few templars and the Grand Cleric. You're using pure speculation which does not carry any weight around here.

And? Orsino intentionally hid a psychotic bloodmage from everyone that was murdering and butchering people for their parts to make his dead wife. Elthina getting away (though getting demoted and failing her task is probably a fate worse than death for Elthina anyway) is a crime, but the mages aren't anymore innocent and are just as guilty of the same actions.

While I do not condone what Orsino was doing with Quentin I can understand. He became friends with the man so that he can study the art of necromancy. This art could be very useful during a war, and most likely Orsino predicted it as Meredith kept pushing. It was only matter of time before it happen, and it did.

The entire city being on fire during the endgame disagrees with you. At best, they are even. But even then, Anders actions have led to several situations that have caused a lot of trouble across an entire continent.

And the main antagonist for DA2 wand up being a demented power hungry templar who wanted to commit genocidal acts against the innocent mages in the Circle over what 1 Mage did to the Chantry. Meredith could of told her templars to arrest and execute Anders (The main suspect) , but no. She wanted more. She wanted to slaugher every single mage in the circle, and yes even the children. She wanted to purge them all like cows inside slaughterhouses.

All because he decided to blow up a building full of innocent people.

Here we go again. "Full of innocent people." prove to me that the Chantry was full of innocent people.

[Nohvarr]

Since when did Anders started sacrificing innocent people? He's not a blood mage you know And how do you know that the Chantry was full of "innocent" people at the time? Did David mention about this? Did it mention it in the novel book? I only saw a a few templars and the Grand Cleric. You're using pure speculation which does not carry any weight around here.

How about the children in the Circle of Magi who likely died when Anders gave Meredith the excuse to purge the Circle. Hawkes sister makes it clear that here are you children in the circle and an ROA which Anders wanted since he knew exactly what he was doing wouldn't spare them.

Orisino for all his faults did a better Job fighting for Mages. He got in Merediths face, fought tooth and nail for fair treatment and had all of that work shattered because Anders had to kill (at the very least) the one person who was holding Merediths leash.

[Lord Raijin]

d-boy15 wrote...

/pic

And what's wrong about what Cullen said? Normal people can't blow the whole town all by themselves. Mages
can which why they're need to be in checked. If they running free like normal people, some of them probably kill
people or do a terrible thing, are you gonna deny that possibilities?

Are you kidding me? "Mages cannot be treated like people" that is just flat out wrong. If free mages are so dangerous then how come when Anders first escaped the Circle that he saved the life of  Bann Ferrenly. Anders did a lot of good for the community as a free mage.

About what Mages can't be friend, if Templar allow themselve to be close with Mages, there highly a chance 
they gonna get munipulated. The problem is both side didn't trust each other and you can't blame all that on
Templar or Chantry alone. Plus, it's actually reasonable for Cullen to believe that after DA:O event.

You should learn the history of Carver Hawke's name if you think Mages and Templars cannot be friends

The Circle is system is ok but Mages can't let to govern themselves like they wanted, DA2 show that even the
experienced Mages like Orsino can fall in to curiosity led to blood magic. They need to be in checked by other
faction that not share their interest.

And why not? Why can't Mages govern the Circle themselves? And what is so wrong with Blood magic? If you use it in a responsible way I find nothing wrong with it. The Chantry has no problem using blood magic to track down apostates who escaped from the circle. Why is it ok for the Chantry to use it but not the mages?

Also, if the Elven guys kill Templar who pursuit him that would be understandable but he just come out and kill
his wife for no reason at all (Hawke didn't even intercept him at that point). And his action had nothing to do with
Templar at all because there is no Templar there and even there is, that not justify his crime.

Did you not see that the Elven guy was possessed? He was not acting like himself. Oh and the templars were still tracking him down. Hawke manage to find the Elf first.

I don't like Templar more than Mages, In fact I support Mages in my game but blamed everything on Chantry is
too bias, they had their reason to fear.

It's not bias but actual truth. The Chantry is the root of all of this problem. If only you can understand what i'm talking about here.

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr wrote...

How about the children in the Circle of Magi who likely died when Anders gave Meredith the excuse to purge the Circle. Hawkes sister makes it clear that here are you children in the circle and an ROA which Anders wanted since he knew exactly what he was doing wouldn't spare them.

Orisino for all his faults did a better Job fighting for Mages. He got in Merediths face, fought tooth and nail for fair treatment and had all of that work shattered because Anders had to kill (at the very least) the one person who was holding Merediths leash.

That is not Anders fault. It is Meredith who wanted everyone dead in the Circle over what he did. She wanted everyone in the Circle to pay for Anders crimes, and was determine to do it too. That is just pure genocide. Orsino tried talking sense to Meredith, and actually was willing to have her arrest him, but all the talk that he did fell on deaf ears.

And how exactly did Orsino get into Meredith's face? She was the one that kept yanking at his balls. As a mage how can you possibly work with someone like Meredith? Who think that you're nothing but a curse.

[Nohvarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...
That is not Anders fault.

 
Yes it is, knowing how volatile the situation was he killed the Grand Cleric to start a war. If a person goes into a crowded theater and yells fire, when there is no fire, every injury that results from the Stamped of humans running for the door is on their head. Anders set a fire himself knowing people would die, and accepting those deaths as necessary. So the Entire Kirkwall circle get's purged because of his actions.

Those deaths, innocent mages and young children are on his hands

And how exactly did Orsino get into Meredith's face?

There's a scene where Hawk walks up to find Orisin arguing with Meredith and has to defuse the situation.

As a mage how can you possibly work with someone like Meredith? Who think that you're nothing but a curse.

Orisino did it in chapter 2 when the Qunari attacked and then went on to oppose her actions all throughout chapter 3. It must've been working because Templars were turning against Meredith, and even the nobels were making noise that she should go. Meredith, for all her power didn't have the legal authority or enough support to enact an ROA and Orisino was not letting up. Then Anders hands Meredith both and everyone in the circle dies.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 09 octobre 2013 - 12:23 .

[d-boy15]

[quote]Lord Raijin wrote...

Are you kidding me? "Mages cannot be treated like people" that is just flat out wrong. If free mages are so dangerous then how come when Anders first escaped the Circle that he saved the life of  Bann Ferrenly. Anders did a lot of good for the community as a free mage. 
[/quote]

Just because Anders can do some good doesn't make other Mages all good or can be trust. Not all
free mages are dangerous but some of them are enough to pose a threat if they gone bad.


[quote]
You should learn the history of Carver Hawke's name if you think Mages and Templars cannot be friends
[/quote]

Different situation, different time. In the past the tension between mage and templar isn't serious and 
unreasonable as Hawke time. And that come from the mage victim opinion which why I said it's pretty
reasonable for him to believe that.

Also, how can you expect two peoples to be friend when they had fear to each other? Templar thinks
mage will  try to escape or manipulate them, mage fear that templar will try to find a reason to punish
them. 

[quote]
And why not? Why can't Mages govern the Circle themselves? And what is so wrong with Blood magic? If you use it in a responsible way I find nothing wrong with it. The Chantry has no problem using blood magic to track down apostates who escaped from the circle. Why is it ok for the Chantry to use it but not the mages?
[/quote]

Because when you put people who share common interest unchecked, it highly a chance that they won't check among themselve due to their trust and bias. Use blood magic itself isn't wrong but how they do it 
is wrong, in DA series, blood magic mostly end up with sacrifice people or mind control.

Do I need to tell you that templar didn't use blood magic to kill mage or combat them like mage did? They
just use it to find them.

[quote]
Did you not see that the Elven guy was possessed? He was not acting like himself. Oh and the templars were still tracking him down. Hawke manage to find the Elf first.[/quote]
[/quote]


Blood magic users in DA2, turn to demon many time. The women who kill Thrask seem to be herself most of the time until she is killed, Quintin didn't possessed, the blood mage who turn templar in to demon isn't either.

And he shouldn't even use it from the start if it's mean dealing with the demon. 

[quote]
It's not bias but actual truth. The Chantry is the root of all of this problem. If only you can understand what i'm talking about here.[/quote]

Are you gonna say that without Chantry, mage won't do no harm?

Chantry suck but sadly it's not the root of all problems about magic in Thedas.

Modifié par d-boy15, 09 octobre 2013 - 12:41 .

[TK514]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Since when did Anders started sacrificing innocent people? He's not a blood mage you know   And how do you know that the Chantry was full of "innocent" people at the time? Did David mention about this? Did it mention it in the novel book? I only saw a a few templars and the Grand Cleric. You're using pure speculation which does not carry any weight around here.

All because he decided to blow up a building full of innocent people.

Here we go again. "Full of innocent people." prove to me that the Chantry was full of innocent people. 

"We aren't explicitly shown it, so it doesn't exist".  What an absurd position to take.  Since that's your criteria, there were only eleven people living in The Gallows for most of the game, and nine of them were Templars.

Lord Raijin wrote...
You should learn the history of Carver Hawke's name if you think Mages and Templars cannot be friends

Ser Carver is a perfect example of why Templars and Mages shouldn't be friends.  Templars aren't supposed to let Mages escape.

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr wrote...
Yes it is, knowing how volatile the situation was he killed the Grand Cleric to start a war. If a person goes into a crowded theater and yells fire, when there is no fire, every injury that results from the Stamped of humans running for the door is on their head. Anders set a fire himself knowing people would die, and accepting those deaths as necessary. So the Entire Kirkwall circle get's purged because of his actions.

Those deaths, innocent mages and young children are on his hands

A war was already going on between the mages and the templars in Kirkwall. Why do you think the city was full of blood mages? Do you think these mages became blood mages without proper cause? Mages started using blood magic to defend themselves against the templars. Elthina mention that mages had came after her before so Anders wasn't the only one that wanted to snuff out the old hag.

Anders was sending a message when he assassinated the Grand Cleric (She actually wanted to die, since she refuse to leave the city). The message was that the Mages will not bow down to the Chantry and their rules for much longer. The Mages are now fighting for their freedom at all cost. Here In America our founding fathers fought for the freedom that we have now. It was well worth it.

While a war can cost the lives of innocent people... it is also part of the recovery process.

There's a scene where Hawk walks up to find Orisin arguing with Meredith and has to defuse the situation.

I assume you're talking about the scene where Orsino made a public display at the begining of ACT 3, right? Orsino was just preaching to the public and educating them that mages aren't as evil or scary as the Chantry wants them to think. Meredith quickly found out, and rushed to the scene. It was completely innocent at best.

Orisino did it in chapter 2 when the Qunari attacked and then went on to oppose her actions all throughout chapter 3. It must've been working because Templars were turning against Meredith, and even the nobels were making noise that she should go. Meredith, for all her power didn't have the legal authority or enough support to enact an ROA and Orisino was not letting up. Then Anders hands Meredith both and everyone in the circle dies.

That is a different situation and the Qunari didn't attack first.  I already explain that It was the Chantry that provoked them to attack. The Nobles were making noises because they were tired of Meredith withholding their right to cast a vote for a new Viscount. Templars are not allowed to hold that title, only the nobles. Some Templars were turning against Meredith because she was becoming a tryant. Elthina made it all happen. 

Anders did right by snuffing her out.

[Nohvarr]

A war was already going on between the mages and the templars in Kirkwall.

There was certainly tension, and it’s clear the Templars were going after Blood mages and runaways, however it’s a stretch to call it war until after Anders blows up the Chantry. At that point all restraint is gone (The Templars did bring back a group or runaway mages alive and they had enough freedom to ally with a Sympathetic Templar to work towards their own freedom before Anders ruins the any chance at compromise)

Elthina mention that mages had came after her before so Anders wasn't the only one that wanted to snuff out the old hag.

Source, because my own research shows she didn’t think anyone would attack her, something you seemed to confirm in a previous post when you claimed she thought she was untouchable.

Anders was sending a message when he assassinated the Grand Cleric (She actually wanted to die, since she refuse to leave the city).

Now you’re just making things up.

When Hawke returns only to pass the agent's message that Elthina must leave Kirkwall for Orlais because she will not be safe in the city, Elthina refuses to abandon her flock.

…..

Later Elthina tells that she has been talking with both Orsino and Meredith and that Orsino "is not an unreasonable man;" she feels, therefore, that a compromise can be reached.

The message was that the Mages will not bow down to the Chantry and their rules for much longer.

The message also states that we don’t care who we have hurt to get our way. Whether it be an old woman who was trying to create peace, or mage children who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time

I’m noticing in your posts a belief that without the Chantry the mages would be better people. Let’s see what happens when Mages run things.

The Tevinter Imperium is still governed by powerful magic-users through a form of magocracy. It is almost universally reviled by other nations. Its nobility is known to be over-indulgent, and slavery is still practiced. The Imperium is the center of the black market, smuggling (including the harboring of mage fugitives from other lands) and the slave trade. Tevinter would crumble without slaves, given that it is the only way to support their economy. History shows how deeply committed they are to the practice; when an archon once outlawed it [slavery], the archon was quickly assassinated. Though slave rebellion occur frequently, the Imperial Senate unites in the face of "sedition" to suppress them. Though merely a shadow of its former glory, the Imperium is still a very powerful nation with considerable military might. It would turn on the southern nations were it not diverted by the constant wars with the Qunari.

magical ability are hallmarks of the ruling elite, the magisters. The ancient magister lords ruled the Imperium in the Circles of Magi (before their modern incarnation), maintaining a tight hold over its people through the power to infiltrate their dreams using blood magic. Though blood magic is now banned in the Imperium, mages who practice it are quietly acknowledged as the most proficient dream-walkers and diviners. The ban is really only paid lip service to; even the most devout mages in Tevinter know at least the basics.

The strata of Tevinter society encompasses three unique levels. All common citizens of the Imperium who are non-mages are considered part of the Soporati social class. This is a mainly human class which is allowed to own property and serve in Tevinter's military but they have no real power in the nation's governance and are unable to attain a higher rank in the Imperial Chantry than mother or father. Often they are found to be merchants. However, when a Soporati family produces a mage child it allows them entrance into the Laetans class and thus a higher social standing. In general, the Soporati and ruling mage classes exist in a state of tension due to the inequality of their standing in the nation.

The next highest social level is that of Laetans, who are mages born into families that had up to that point shown no magical ability or who have been mages for generations but have no link to the higher Altus or Dreamer class. One third of the Archons throughout history have been Laetans.[3]
Altus mages are reckoned to be descendents of the Dreamers or magisters who possessed the ability to speak to the Old Gods in the Fade. The Old Gods are no longer objects of worship but the descendents of these powerful mages are still held in esteem and often are the most high-ranking mages in the Imperium; indeed the majority of magisters are Altus. Interestingly, there was a time in which these Altus mages were scorned for their seeming part in creating the Blights as the corruption of the Golden City transformed these mages into the first darkspawn. As a result, many such mages were slain during the period of Transfiguration when the Imperium became Andrastian. Since then, the Altus mages have returned to the upper echelon of Tevinter society.

It is still legal for elves and humans and even Qunari[7] to be sold into slavery in Tevinter, a fact which allowed many elves from Ferelden to be sent to the Imperium during Teyrn Loghain's regency. People may also choose to sell themselves into slavery to provide for their families. Slave revolts have been a common occurrence throughout history. Kirkwall was once the center of the Tevinter slave trade.[ Dwarves are thus far not known to be kept as slaves in the Imperium, presumably due to their upstanding relations they held with them for millenia as well as of their fundamental importance in providing the Imperium with lyrium.

Slaves can only legally be set free before a judge, with the owner present to formally states the slaves have been granted freedom, or by the owner's will upon his or her death. These emancipated slaves are known as Liberati, a subclass with limited rights and are not considered citizens.
Liberati can join a Circle of Magi or serve as an apprentice in trade. Liberati may also own property, but cannot join the military or have a say in governance.

Since you value freedom so Highly I’m sure you’d agree that the slaves under Tevinters’ heels are justified in blowing up a Circle of Magi to prove that they will not bow down to the Magisters and their rules for much longer.

That is a different situation and the Qunari didn't attack first. I already explain that It was the Chantry that provoked them to attack.

No, it was mother Petrice who provoked the Qunari, just as it was Anders who provoked the Templars.

The Nobles were making noises because they were tired of Meredith withholding their right to cast a vote for a new Viscount. Templars are not allowed to hold that title, only the nobles. Some Templars were turning against Meredith because she was becoming a tryant. Elthina made it all happen.

How? By refusing to let Meredith enact the ROA, or was it when she tried to diffuse the conflict between Orisino and Meredith?

Modifié par Nohvarr, 09 octobre 2013 - 04:00 .