727 réponses à ce sujet

[Cainhurst Crow]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...



So she has the seekers killed, or removed, or spun in circles on a wild goose chase. Why not that instead of pulling a palpatine?

Hey now! God tier Palpatine would never put his seal of approval on something like DA2.

This is more like pulling a Thanaton, maybe a Baras in its cleverer moments.

Very good point, I stand corrected.

I'm hoping Inquisition at least manages some Marr level villainy.

Would be beautiful.

I want a baras type villian, complete with all the arrogance or brovado.

[Silfren]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Where in the lore does it state Elthina supported meredith indirectly. I'd love you to link that section of the codex/wiki.

Her actions speaks clearly and besides...

http://dragonage.wik..._Cleric_Elthina

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

Could you possibly just use the underline feature instead of red text?  My eyes are bleeding bad enough without your help.  =P

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:06 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

If so, Meredith would have overstepped her bounds and been removed by Elthina and there were already Seekers investigating Kirkwall

Yet another thing supporting my hypothesis that Elthina was secretly backing Meredith and approving of her actions.

Why the need for secrecy?

Because Justinia might take exception to Meredith's actions.

She'd find out how?

Just possibly the Seeker investigating the city.

Also, see my first post on this page for an edit.

So she has the seekers killed, or removed, or spun in circles on a wild goose chase. Why not that instead of pulling a palpatine?

Why not a palpatine? As well ask the writers why they chose to make any character act the way they did.  Beyond that, it's easy enough why she wouldn't have had the seekers killed, if she's trying to, y'know, avoid having the Divine turn her full attention on Kirkwall.  I agree with the premise that Elthina was up to something that involved tacitly supporting Meredith while maintaining plausible deniability.

I question the reason for the premise to even exist, or the grounds on which the assertion stands, since there is no reason for a conspiracy to even exist outside of trying to juke the players.

It's the indoctrination nonsense all over again.

It's just a matter of looking at all the lore pertaining to Elthina--codices that mention her, her dialogue, etc., and reading between the lines.  It's speculation, of course, but it is most assuredly NOT baseless.

So what your saying is it was all a dream, and shepard's going to wake up any second now. As soon as bioware makes that truth dlc.

Also time travel and a park bench are invovled somehow.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want a baras type villian, complete with all the arrogance or brovado.

DEFEND THE VOICE!!!

Yeah that could work, I'm hoping for a little Marr-ish dangerously genre savvy to go with it.

Either way it'd be better than "Lol time to turn into a harvester" and "BLUD MAEGS IZ EVULS MAGIK SWORD TELLS ME SO!".

[Lord Raijin]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

And it's still a horrible and unforgivable act when it happens, you don't just say it's okay because the guy you want to **** did it.

When terrible things are done to anyone that results in mass amounts of people dying, it's not a good act. Especially when it's done against non-military forces outside of war, with the justification being that war is a good thing to have. Had it been a extremist group of templars who blew up the chantry, it would be bad. A mage blowing up the chantry, that's also bad.

Why is it that you can't admit that? Why do you lack humanity?

If blowing up the chantry is horrible and an unforgivable act then why is it ok to arrest a mage who commit no crime, and take him to the circle where he essentinally becomes a prisoner of the Chantry? When a Circle mage delivers a child the templars takes the child away from the mage and never sees that child again.  You speak as if I lack of humanity... Do you think the Chantry is full of humanity? If so I like to know what drug you're taking because the Chantry is anti humanity, especially taking away newborn children away from the mothers of the circle.

The Chantry has brought all of this destruction and death onto themselves for the way they treated mages.

[Lord Raijin]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

That doesn't really support your point. At all.

Yes it does, you just don't want to accept it because it doesn't favor your argument at all.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Where in the lore does it state Elthina supported meredith indirectly. I'd love you to link that section of the codex/wiki.

Her actions speaks clearly and besides...

http://dragonage.wik..._Cleric_Elthina

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

So your allowing the speculation of people who are mainly claiming she's a senile old crone and want her replaced. Because their testimony would certainly be unbiased.

Additionally, she may very well be unsuited for her job because of her age. What you linked doesn't have evidence that supports your point of her being a mustache twirling, monicle polishing, grand manipulator. Especially when all the people you claim work for her never slip up and reveal anything, no notes or incriminating letters are ever found, literally nothing that would give the audience the ability to deduce these conclusions without wild and frankly, quite biased, interpretations.

[Silfren]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Silfren wrote...
It's just a matter of looking at all the lore pertaining to Elthina--codices that mention her, her dialogue, etc., and reading between the lines.  It's speculation, of course, but it is most assuredly NOT baseless.

So what your saying is it was all a dream, and shepard's going to wake up any second now. As soon as bioware makes that truth dlc.

Also time travel and a park bench are invovled somehow.

No.  I'm taking existing lore provided directly by the game, and interpreting what it could mean.  Again, I acknowledge that it is speculation, but by no means is it unreasonable, based on the information given.  Your mileage may vary, but mine is not invalid just because you don't personally agree with it.

ETA: Excised most of the quote tree because it was getting way out of hand.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:15 .

[d-boy15]

Just because you like to think Elthina had some kind of evil conspiracy in your head canon doesn't
mean it's true for DA lore.

Her story in DA2 is a middle man who stand between the tension of mage and templar waiting to go
all out war. She is people who trying to favor both sides and make them to agree on something they
refuse to understand or make a compromise. Which end up cost her life because Anders is enough
of all this and decide to drag everyone to his own ideal of fighting.

If you think there only right or wrong side in this stupid conflict then it's either writers fail to create a
grey conflict or you are bias.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:15 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I think we can all agree that DA2 badly needed a "Screw you guys I'm going home back to Ferelden" option.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want a baras type villian, complete with all the arrogance or brovado.

DEFEND THE VOICE!!!

Yeah that could work, I'm hoping for a little Marr-ish dangerously genre savvy to go with it.

Either way it'd be better than "Lol time to turn into a harvester" and "BLUD MAEGS IZ EVULS MAGIK SWORD TELLS ME SO!".

I would love it if he was a tevinter mage, it would just be too perfect. Or perhaps a dalish keeper.

"Don't mock me, Shemlen!"

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Just because you like to think Elthina had some kind of evil conspiracy in your head canon doesn't
mean it's true for DA lore.

Her story in DA2 is a middle man who stand between the tension of mage and templar waiting to go
all out war. She is people who trying to favor both sides and make them to agree on something they
refuse to understand or make a compromise. Which end up cost her life because Anders is enough
of all this and decide to drag everyone to his own ideal of fighting.

If you think there only right or wrong side in this stupid conflict then it's either writers fail to create a
grey conflict or you are bias.

Doesn't mean it's NOT true, either.  At no point is the game EVER conclusive on whether Elthina was a sweet old lady trying to maintain peace and just being terrible at it, or whether she was manipulating the parties involved.  Your interpretation is no more conclusively supported than mine or anyone else's.  

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want a baras type villian, complete with all the arrogance or brovado.

DEFEND THE VOICE!!!

Yeah that could work, I'm hoping for a little Marr-ish dangerously genre savvy to go with it.

Either way it'd be better than "Lol time to turn into a harvester" and "BLUD MAEGS IZ EVULS MAGIK SWORD TELLS ME SO!".

I would love it if he was a tevinter mage, it would just be too perfect. Or perhaps a dalish keeper.

"Don't mock me, Shemlen!"

Ooohh! And a Vowrawn inquisitorial ally!

"Is that coming from you or the creators/maker/ect Baras? It's rather hard to tell the difference."

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I think we can all agree that DA2 badly needed a "Screw you guys I'm going home back to Ferelden" option.

You do.

But like everything else in DA2 it doesn't work

Okay this was one of the few times where a Bioware cheap third way out would have fit the story.

Both sides are unlikable and I have no reason to support either.

So I'm going to pull a Sandor and peace out.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Doesn't mean it's NOT true, either. At no point is the game EVER conclusive on whether Elthina was a sweet old lady trying to maintain peace and just being terrible at it, or whether she was manipulating the parties involved. Your interpretation is no more conclusively supported than mine or anyone else's.

It actually is, since most evidence in the game supports it. Otherwise I can just say Elthina was secretly an apostate mage using blood magic to make everyone in DA2 really stupid.

Love it! Let's just run with that!

[MissOuJ]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Some claim that Elthina's advanced age has rendered her ineffective, and that she allows Knight-Commander Meredith more leeway with each passing year. Some are calling on the new Divine, Justinia V, to appoint a replacement-but they do so quietly, for Elthina is by far the most beloved priest the city has ever known.

That doesn't really support your point. At all.

It actually kinda does:

Meredith goes loony + Chantry keeps telling people Mages are dangerous and really really scary = "the voice of reason" Elthina gets more and more popular with the people. The more the two sides fight, the more important her role becomes (politically) --> giving Meredith leeway elevates the conflict, thus making Elthina more needed and her position more secure.

Sure it's just speculation, but it's not without reason or logic, either.

Also, on the topic of "Elthina was in board with Petrice" : Petrice says herself that where Varnel incited, she "reminded the faithful in sermon and prayer" - if you can pull that off in the Chantry right under Elthina's nose without her knowing about it, Elthina was a really inefficient, dumb, and probably senile, which is not the vibe I get from her at all. It is actually much more likely that she tolerated Petrice's BS because it helped to increase the Chantry's popularity with the citizens of Kirkwall (who were not particularly fond of the Qunari), but didn't believe the Qunari would actually escalate the situation beyond what she could handle. Hawke can actually go and warn her before the end of Act 2 that s/he believes the conflict will escalate (and talk about the Chantry's involvement in it) and Elthina is all like "not to worry, I'm sure it'll all work out for the best", which... yeah, not so much.

So I guess I believe Elthina is playing her own game and tragically underestimated the other players' hands what what they were willing to bet, and it ended up blowing in her face - quite literally.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

And it's still a horrible and unforgivable act when it happens, you don't just say it's okay because the guy you want to **** did it.

When terrible things are done to anyone that results in mass amounts of people dying, it's not a good act. Especially when it's done against non-military forces outside of war, with the justification being that war is a good thing to have. Had it been a extremist group of templars who blew up the chantry, it would be bad. A mage blowing up the chantry, that's also bad.

Why is it that you can't admit that? Why do you lack humanity?

If blowing up the chantry is horrible and an unforgivable act then why is it ok to arrest a mage who commit no crime, and take him to the circle where he essentinally becomes a prisoner of the Chantry? When a Circle mage delivers a child the templars takes the child away from the mage and never sees that child again.  You speak as if I lack of humanity... Do you think the Chantry is full of humanity? If so I like to know what drug you're taking because the Chantry is anti humanity, especially taking away newborn children away from the mothers of the circle.

The Chantry has brought all of this destruction and death onto themselves for the way they treated mages.

Because the circle's system is the only alternative that actually works for  the most people. The mages are kept out of reach by crazy andrastrian cults. They're kept in a place so that their dabbling in blood magic and turning into abomination in case of a horrible act or accident, like we saw in fereldans, doesn't cause the deaths of thousands of people. I mean, if a nuclear reactor was being built, would you want it to be in the center of a major city, and under the most lax amount of supervision, or would you have it in a isolated place where a accident could be contained realtively easily and where it's fully staffed at all times. Because that's the kind of situation you unfortunately have. And you thank make up stories about how mages aren't allowed to see their families, but there are characters who we meet who claim to meet their families and get along with them just fine, like Finn.
 
So is he a liar? Why would he lie? What reason is there in that, and if there is, why is the player never allowed to call them out on it? I personally think that the reason so many mages don't contact their families is either having no desire, whether out of apathy or contempt, or knowing their familiy doesn't want them.

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Just because you like to think Elthina had some kind of evil conspiracy in your head canon doesn't
mean it's true for DA lore.

Her story in DA2 is a middle man who stand between the tension of mage and templar waiting to go
all out war. She is people who trying to favor both sides and make them to agree on something they
refuse to understand or make a compromise. Which end up cost her life because Anders is enough
of all this and decide to drag everyone to his own ideal of fighting.

If you think there only right or wrong side in this stupid conflict then it's either writers fail to create a
grey conflict or you are bias.

Doesn't mean it's NOT true, either.  At no point is the game EVER conclusive on whether Elthina was a sweet old lady trying to maintain peace and just being terrible at it, or whether she was manipulating the parties involved.  Your interpretation is no more conclusively supported than mine or anyone else's.  

It's not an interpretation, it's from what characters said in game and Elthina herself.

- Elthina seek to maintain peace, she said that in game. Some main character said that too.
- Anders said it himself that he want mage to go all out war or die trying.
- Remove Elthina and both side show their true colors. (Meredith invoke anulment, Circle is
really practice blood magic) It's clearly show the only thing that stop them from kill each other
is her. 

Just because the story only mention that she is ineffective to keep Meredith in line doesn't mean
she had some evil conspiracy as you wanted to be.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:32 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

I want a baras type villian, complete with all the arrogance or brovado.

DEFEND THE VOICE!!!

Yeah that could work, I'm hoping for a little Marr-ish dangerously genre savvy to go with it.

Either way it'd be better than "Lol time to turn into a harvester" and "BLUD MAEGS IZ EVULS MAGIK SWORD TELLS ME SO!".

I would love it if he was a tevinter mage, it would just be too perfect. Or perhaps a dalish keeper.

"Don't mock me, Shemlen!"

Ooohh! And a Vowrawn inquisitorial ally!

"Is that coming from you or the creators/maker/ect Baras? It's rather hard to tell the difference."

"Your patron just ensured your suffering will be epic, youngster!"