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[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

d-boy15 wrote...

Just because you like to think Elthina had some kind of evil conspiracy in your head canon doesn't
mean it's true for DA lore.

Her story in DA2 is a middle man who stand between the tension of mage and templar waiting to go
all out war. She is people who trying to favor both sides and make them to agree on something they
refuse to understand or make a compromise. Which end up cost her life because Anders is enough
of all this and decide to drag everyone to his own ideal of fighting.

If you think there only right or wrong side in this stupid conflict then it's either writers fail to create a
grey conflict or you are bias.

Doesn't mean it's NOT true, either.  At no point is the game EVER conclusive on whether Elthina was a sweet old lady trying to maintain peace and just being terrible at it, or whether she was manipulating the parties involved.  Your interpretation is no more conclusively supported than mine or anyone else's.  

It's not an interpretation, it's from what characters said in game and Elthina herself.

- Elthina seek to maintain peace, she said that in game. Some main character said that too.
- Anders said it himself that he want mage to go all out war or die trying.
- Remove Elthina and both side show their true colors. (Meredith invoke anulment, Circle is
really practice blood magic) It's clearly show the only thing that stop them from kill each other
is her. 

Just because the story only mention that she is ineffective to keep Meredith in line doesn't mean
she had some evil conspiracy as you wanted to be.

My opinion of Elthina has nothing at all to do with the story "saying" she was keeping Meredith in line.  There's a LOT more to characters in a story than what comes out of their mouths or what other characters say about them.  That Elthina was unquestionably the greatest authority in the city and yet was letting Kirkwall go to hell around her is the very reason that people should look at her inaction and wonder about it.  I used to think she was easily dismissed as a doddering old woman who'd outlived her usefulness as Grand Cleric, but having re-examined her character I don't see this at all.  

I would hope you do realize that just because a character says something, doesn't make it true.  Plus, I'm not talking about Anders at all for the purpose of this discussion, which is about whether or not Elthina was truly a sweet but otherwise ineffective old woman trying and failing to do the right thing, or a shrewd and calculating woman down her core. 

I am also not at all saying that Elthina was a mustache twirling villain up to some evil conspiracy.  I'm not saying she had a deep, dark dastardly plan and was secretly in league with Meredith's plan to abuse mages.  I simply think that she was manipulating events for her own reasons--probably, in my view, simply to maintain her own power and influence.  And yes, the game does indeed support this interpretation.

Elthina manages to be trusted by most of the different factions.  Aside from a codex mentioning her opponents wanting her removed for being old and ineffective, we see that she is well regarded by the templars, the mages, and the nobility.  For that matter, she's BFFs with a scion of the ruling familiy of Starkhaven.  This is, frankly, a politically shrewd position to cultivate.  Especially since Elthina seems to be good at being far enough removed from events to avoid being blamed:  I think it's likely she was involved in the poisoning of the previous viscount.  I also think it's quite impossible for her not to have known about Petrice's plotting. 

In fact, the entire plot involving Petrice, is, for me, the most visible evidence that Elthina wasn't just some old woman trying to do her best by playing at peacemaker.  Petrice managed to get ahold of the Grand Cleric's seal.  It could have happened that Petrice got it without Elthina knowing, but I don't buy that.  Petrice is blunt about having preached anti-Qunari sermons from the pulpit, so it's clear that Elthina definitely was not unaware of Petrice's opinions on the matter.  And don't forget that after Petrice tried to set up a situation where the Qunari killed innocent people, she was promoted.  Sure, again, Elthina could have been completely unaware of Petrice's actions, but I don't think so.  Not when you see the way she turns her back on Petrice and the latter seems completely taken aback by this reaction.  Moreover, Elthina doesn't seem even slightly upset or even surprised if the scene works out so that Petrice is shot in the face right inside the Chantry itself.  In fact, she doesn't react at all, she just keeps on walking right up the stairs. 

I find it extremely convenient the way so many things seem to happen right under Grand Cleric Elthina's nose without her being aware.  It's just coincidence, I suppose, that she manages to maintain enough distance from everything that nobody ever thinks to blame her. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:02 .

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

And as far as the Tranquil Solution idea is a complete and utter joke. Even the Pro Chantry/ Pro Templars here could agree with that. Nobody with half the mind would agree to this plan, not unless if they're insane.

Now I know you’re just ignoring things you don’t like. Meredith points out that the Grand Cleric was beginning to view the Knight-Commander as unreasonable. I also pointed out a scene where in she stops the conflict between Orsino and Meredith from getting worse by separating them and giving them time to calm down. Meredith knew she couldn’t enact the ROA without support from the Grand Cleric and knew that without evidence that support would never come. Yet you still claim Elithina was firmly supporting Meredith despite blocking her more dangerous excesses again and again.

I don't make it a habit of ignoring things that I don't like so I don't know why you would even point that out. I wish you could stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I ever say that Elthina was "supporting" Meredith. She was enabling her to contuine to do the things that she did. That is why I am calling her an enabler. She didn't seem to stop Meredith from what she was doing to the city. Elthina should know that the Templar Order should never get involved in city polities. They're there to deal with mages and protect the Chantry, thats all. Meredith pervented an election of a new Viscount. During that scene if you mention about becoming the new Viscount Meredith was quick to reject the idea because it would mean that she would lose some power over the city.

You can claim she misjudged the situation, you can even say she didn’t do enough to stop Meredith (though that is debatable since having power on paper is very different than having it in actuality.) However saying she deserved to die because she was evil and manipulating events is not supported by what is seen. You keep pointing to the part of the codex that says the GC had control over the Knight-Commander. Yet the Templars abandoned the Divine when they were not allowed to kill mages as they wanted. Elthina was in the same boat. Sure she had some power over Meredith, but Meredith had the trained soldiers and the weapon meaning Elithina could only push so far.

Can you send me the codex of this "Yet the Templars abandoned the Divine when they were not allowed to kill mages as they wanted."? was this prior to Kirkwall or after? I assume that this is Asunder were talking about? The Templars were very much loyal to the Chantry during Kirkwall days. Meredith may of had trained soldier, but those highly trained soldiers under Meredith wouldn't hesitate to side with Elthina had she demoted her from her duty as Knight-Commander, and made a fuss over it. The fact that they obeyed her ordered when she told them to take Orsino back to the Circle is evidence right there.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

And as far as the Tranquil Solution idea is a complete and utter joke. Even the Pro Chantry/ Pro Templars here could agree with that. Nobody with half the mind would agree to this plan, not unless if they're insane.

I'm pro-mage, despite the negative stigma that respones ike the one's you give have colored the rest of us sane people. I think that tranquility is always an option, especially when it is asked for. Not everyone can handle the power that they weild.

Now I know you’re just ignoring things you don’t like. Meredith points out that the Grand Cleric was beginning to view the Knight-Commander as unreasonable. I also pointed out a scene where in she stops the conflict between Orsino and Meredith from getting worse by separating them and giving them time to calm down. Meredith knew she couldn’t enact the ROA without support from the Grand Cleric and knew that without evidence that support would never come. Yet you still claim Elithina was firmly supporting Meredith despite blocking her more dangerous excesses again and again.

I don't make it a habit of ignoring things that I don't like so I don't know why you would even point that out. I wish you could stop putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I ever say that Elthina was "supporting" Meredith. She was enabling her to contuine to do the things that she did. That is why I am calling her an enabler. She didn't seem to stop Meredith from what she was doing to the city. Elthina should know that the Templar Order should never get involved in city polities. They're there to deal with mages and protect the Chantry, thats all. Meredith pervented an election of a new Viscount. During that scene if you mention about becoming the new Viscount Meredith was quick to reject the idea because it would mean that she would lose some power over the city.

Actually, that's exactly what you said. Also, youre contradicting yourself.

You can claim she misjudged the situation, you can even say she didn’t do enough to stop Meredith (though that is debatable since having power on paper is very different than having it in actuality.) However saying she deserved to die because she was evil and manipulating events is not supported by what is seen. You keep pointing to the part of the codex that says the GC had control over the Knight-Commander. Yet the Templars abandoned the Divine when they were not allowed to kill mages as they wanted. Elthina was in the same boat. Sure she had some power over Meredith, but Meredith had the trained soldiers and the weapon meaning Elithina could only push so far.

Can you send me the codex of this "Yet the Templars abandoned the Divine when they were not allowed to kill mages as they wanted."? was this prior to Kirkwall or after? I assume that this is Asunder were talking about? The Templars were very much loyal to the Chantry during Kirkwall days. Meredith may of had trained soldier, but those highly trained soldiers under Meredith wouldn't hesitate to side with Elthina had she demoted her from her duty as Knight-Commander, and made a fuss over it. The fact that they obeyed her ordered when she told them to take Orsino back to the Circle is evidence right there.

/impying from nothing that Templars are loyal with evidence to the contrary. 
/impying that Elithina can appoint Templars.
/implying that Meredith didn't do this of her own accord.

[Nohvarr]

Can you send me the codex of this "Yet the Templars abandoned the Divine when they were not allowed to kill mages as they wanted."? was this prior to Kirkwall or after? I assume that this is Asunder were talking about?

From Asunder

Justine aids in the mages again by dispatching her agent, Leliana, and summoning Lord Seeker Lambert to her side to distract him at a critical time. The freed mages raise a revolt inside the White Spire, destroying their phylacteries and killing many templars. After regrouping at Andoral's Reach, mages from across Thedas renounce their ties to the Chantry

The story ends with Lord Seeker Lambert hosting a conclave with fifteen Knight-Commanders who agree with his proposals. An army is being raised to mount an attack on Andoral's Reach in three days time, and Lambert has written a letter to the Divine, stating that, due to the Divine's interference with his efforts and collusion with the escapee mages, Lambert declares the Nevarran Accord null and void: neither the Templar Order nor the Seekers of Truth will acknowledge the Chantry's authority, but will act to enforce the Maker's will as they see fit.

There you go, Justine, who I have pointed out was looking for a humane alternative to Tranquility, lost control of the Templars when she aided the mages. That shows you just how much power the Chantry really had over this military organization since the entire group abandoned the Chantry when they felt the Divine was impeding their ability to crack down on Mages.

That is why I am calling her an enabler. She didn't seem to stop Meredith from what she was doing to the city.

She did stop her from enacting ROA on the mage circle, and tried to encourage her treat the mages with respect (Chapter 3, when Orsino is speaking to the crowd), however Meredith had control of the Templars and as subsequent events have made clear Elithina’s power over them was tenuous at best. If she fires Meredith, other Knight-Commanders would likely have taken as a sign that the Chantry was unwilling to let them do what they felt was necessary. So now you have mass chaos across the land. A chaos that has come to pass now partly because Anders killed Elthina during DA2 and then the Divine aided the Mages in Asunder.

So there you are, a woman who was walking a tight rope and still at least trying to work towards some peace is killed by Anders to remove any possibility of peace and in hopes of starting a war across the entire land. And for this you want to praise Anders.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:16 .

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

Sorry, I'm missing something. what exactly are you saying is not Elthina's job?  As the Grand Cleric, she is indeed Meredith's superior and it is her responsibility to keep the Knight Commander in line.  Yes, the Divine is over her in authority, but Elthina herself is the Chantry authority in Kirkwall.

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

Sorry, I'm missing something. what exactly are you saying is not Elthina's job?  As the Grand Cleric, she is indeed Meredith's superior and it is her responsibility to keep the Knight Commander in line.  Yes, the Divine is over her in authority, but Elthina herself is the Chantry authority in Kirkwall.

Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

[Lord Raijin]

d-boy15 wrote...

Anders reason with her? LOL He just another one who try to use her reputation to gain adventage for his cause.
He is not different from Meredith, try using Elthina as thier tool.

Just because people didn't want to take side doesn't mean you have a right to kill them. In that case you 
should kill most citizen of Kirkwall because they do nothing to help mage. And don't tell me about  influence
or the power of title. If all people of Kirkwall just rise up to Meredith, she wouldn't stand a chance at all.

"How dare you to not risk you life to support my cause! If you not with me then you are with them..." that's actually
funny because that what most terrorist thinking.  

Also, the grand clearic might had an authority over knight comander but what really happen is who control the
biggest army hold the power which in this case, it's Meredith. Anyone who watched Game of Throne knows.

Yes Anders, a Mage Underground member, was actually going to reason with the Grand Claric. I guess it didn't went well since she probably used her repeated lines "I don't want to side with anyone, blah blah" and how exactly is Anders using Elthina's reputation to gain advantage for his cause? His cause is for the freedom of mages, which they have every right to be free as much as the non-mages.

LOL Anders is no different than Meredith huh? That is laughable since it is Meredith whos causing gief for the city, not him. Not sure why you even suggest it. I guess it was a non supporting empty argumentment.

Elthina is not just some regular citizen of Kirkwall. She was highly respected, and an authority figure. She has the power to arrest people, and to incarcerate them. Shes obligated watch over her Templars, and spot any corruption. Seekers of Truth maybe call on if theirs any corruption within the Order. That is the best possible solution that Elthina could of done that could've solve so many problems within the city.....

and besides I would pay to see :wub:Cassandra:wub: and <3Knight-Commander Meredith<3 dueling it up with each other at the end of ACT 3.

The fact that Elthina did nothing about Meredith tyrant behavior is a disgrace to the people of Kirkwall but it's also considered criminal. Don't you think the Grand Claric should be punished for not doing anything?  Especially denying us the right to see Cassanra and Meredith fight each other in the Gallows?

Oh and Game of Throne is not Dragon Age so it's irrelevant to this debate. Please stay on track and use DA related examples

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...
Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

Provide us with the Codex. So far you're not doing a good job proving your point.

[Lord Raijin]

Nohvarr , I've purposely ignored your post because I haven't read Asunder yet. I do not want to read any spoilers.

[ScarMK]

Lord Raijin wrote...
 Please stay on track and use DA related examples

Lord Raijin wrote...

Their would be a lot of blowing up churches if the Catholic church became like what the Chantry is at now, or was. Instead of imprisoning mages (Theirs no such thing as mages in RL) they would imprison the LGBT community in their catholic run prisons out of fear and hate. They would be preached about how much of an abomination that they are because of who they are, and how god wants them to become straight again. After so much systematic abuse the LGBT community would fight back and fight for their freedom.

Please follow your own advice.

[Lord Raijin]

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...
 Please stay on track and use DA related examples

Lord Raijin wrote...

Their would be a lot of blowing up churches if the Catholic church became like what the Chantry is at now, or was. Instead of imprisoning mages (Theirs no such thing as mages in RL) they would imprison the LGBT community in their catholic run prisons out of fear and hate. They would be preached about how much of an abomination that they are because of who they are, and how god wants them to become straight again. After so much systematic abuse the LGBT community would fight back and fight for their freedom.

Please follow your own advice.

Is this the part where I'm suppose to feel the burn? I did not.

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

Provide us with the Codex. So far you're not doing a good job proving your point.

-Meredith appoints the viscount
-many say that Elithina gave too Meredith too much power
-the codex entry on the factions

I'd bother with actual links, but your just going to twist what they say anyway, so I won't. If you don't know who really holds the power in Kirkwall after two years, you won't learn now. 

[Nohvarr]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr , I've purposely ignored your post because I haven't read Asunder yet. I do not want to read any spoilers.

Why am I not surprised.

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

Sorry, I'm missing something. what exactly are you saying is not Elthina's job?  As the Grand Cleric, she is indeed Meredith's superior and it is her responsibility to keep the Knight Commander in line.  Yes, the Divine is over her in authority, but Elthina herself is the Chantry authority in Kirkwall.

Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

As for Elthina's murder, you never asked me that question, but I did provide my answer on the subject regardless.  The problem isn't that I haven't answered it but that you don't like my answer.  I do not think that Elthina was an innocent victim, nor were she and the Chantry itself civilian targets.  Too many people overlook the fact that Elthina was the highest representative of the Chantry in the area.  She may not have had adequate power, though I don't believe that for a moment, I think she had plenty...but her authority is indisputable.  And, again, I don't believe that Elthina was helpless, or that she was trying to broker peace, yada yada yada.  She was a shrewd, manipulative person acting for her own ends.  At the very least, there is no way she could have not known about the rampant systemic abuse going on before her eyes.  I don't just support Anders' murder of her, I celebrate it.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 05:51 .

[Lord Raijin]

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Br3ad wrote...
Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

Provide us with the Codex. So far you're not doing a good job proving your point.

-Meredith appoints the viscount
-many say that Elithina gave too Meredith too much power
-the codex entry on the factions

I'd bother with actual links, but your just going to twist what they say anyway, so I won't. If you don't know who really holds the power in Kirkwall after two years, you won't learn now. 

Are you using the "You're going to twist what they say" excuse not to provide links to your statements? OK. I won't take you seriously anymore if you refuse to put effort into your posts.

[Lord Raijin]

Silfren wrote...

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

If Elthina could throw a former Viscount in prison she could of done something to Meredith. Excuse after excuse and more excues that some people here would give this woman for her lack of action to protect the city against a crazy commander templar.

[ScarMK]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Are you using the "You're going to twist what they say" excuse not to provide links to your statements? OK. I won't take you seriously anymore if you refuse to put effort into your posts.

Is he wrong?  You've yet to be consistant in your own argument and have gone from "Anders was driven to this" to "Waaaaaah, Elthina is a mean old lady!"

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

Sorry, I'm missing something. what exactly are you saying is not Elthina's job?  As the Grand Cleric, she is indeed Meredith's superior and it is her responsibility to keep the Knight Commander in line.  Yes, the Divine is over her in authority, but Elthina herself is the Chantry authority in Kirkwall.

Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

You should probably have told her that. Certainly everyone else in Kirkwall doesn't know what you know. Think of it this way. Congress had the "authority" and the most "power" to stop the US government from taking land from the Native Americans. They told Jackson to stop. They told our armies to stop. Did that stop us? No. Expecting it to work for Elithina anymore than Congress is a bit unfair, don't you think? 

[Hellion Rex]

Lord Raijin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

If Elthina could throw a former Viscount in prison she could of done something to Meredith. Excuse after excuse and more excues that some people here would give this woman for her lack of action to protect the city against a crazy commander templar.

Well considering Meredith pretty much defeated Perrin Threnhold, Elthina didn't have to do much to throw him in prison.

[Lord Raijin]

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Are you using the "You're going to twist what they say" excuse not to provide links to your statements? OK. I won't take you seriously anymore if you refuse to put effort into your posts.

Is he wrong?  You've yet to be consistant in your own argument and have gone from "Anders was driven to this" to "Waaaaaah, Elthina is a mean old lady!"

And I'm suppose to sit here and say "Oh that **** Anders! How could he murder such a fragle old woman in cold blood?!? How dare he fight against the Chantry for his freedom and the freedom of all mages! What is wrong with mages anyways? Why do they want their freedom so much?!?! Are they mentally ill?"

[d-boy15]

Lord Raijin wrote...
Yes Anders, a Mage Underground member, was actually going to reason with the Grand Claric. I guess it didn't went well since she probably used her repeated lines "I don't want to side with anyone, blah blah" and how exactly is Anders using Elthina's reputation to gain advantage for his cause? His cause is for the freedom of mages, which they have every right to be free as much as the non-mages.

Had Elthina support Mage is really an impact on his cause, Her word has weight and respected among peoples
in Kirkwall. Having her on his side gain his adventage. And you reason with is "you are with me or with them"

well, that pretty reasonable I guess.

LOL Anders is no different than Meredith huh? That is laughable since it is Meredith whos causing gief for the city, not him. Not sure why you even suggest it. I guess it was a non supporting empty argumentment.

I compared them for their action, both of them just want to use Elthina authority for their cause.

Elthina is not just some regular citizen of Kirkwall. She was highly respected, and an authority figure. She has the power to arrest people, and to incarcerate them. Shes obligated watch over her Templars, and spot any corruption. Seekers of Truth maybe call on if theirs any corruption within the Order. That is the best possible solution that Elthina could of done that could've solve so many problems within the city.....

Seekers of Truth answer only to Divine, and if you actually read Asunder (which you did not) you will known that
your method didn't work and Meredith probably get more allied.

The fact that Elthina did nothing about Meredith tyrant behavior is a disgrace to the people of Kirkwall but it's also considered criminal. Don't you think the Grand Claric should be punished for not doing anything?  Especially denying us the right to see Cassanra and Meredith fight each other in the Gallows?

Who say she didn't do anything? She only didn't do anything that favor one side. If Templar and Mage refuse to
compromise then she can do nothing about it. She already do something when the divine think Kirkwall need
an Exalted March.

Oh and Game of Throne is not Dragon Age so it's irrelevant to this debate. Please stay on track and use DA related examples

I'm sorry didn't I just saw someone using real world religion in a few previous pages? 

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:05 .

[Silfren]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

If Elthina could throw a former Viscount in prison she could of done something to Meredith. Excuse after excuse and more excues that some people here would give this woman for her lack of action to protect the city against a crazy commander templar.

Well considering Meredith pretty much defeated Perrin Threnhold, Elthina didn't have to do much to throw him in prison.

Well, it's not like anyone's saying Elthina swooped in and grabbed him.  The codex in question says that she was the one who had him tried and convicted. 

[Lord Raijin]

eluvianix wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Silfren wrote...

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

If Elthina could throw a former Viscount in prison she could of done something to Meredith. Excuse after excuse and more excues that some people here would give this woman for her lack of action to protect the city against a crazy commander templar.

Well considering Meredith pretty much defeated Perrin Threnhold, Elthina didn't have to do much to throw him in prison.

Elthina was the law back then and she still is, or was

[Br3admax]

Lord Raijin wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Are you using the "You're going to twist what they say" excuse not to provide links to your statements? OK. I won't take you seriously anymore if you refuse to put effort into your posts.

Is he wrong?  You've yet to be consistant in your own argument and have gone from "Anders was driven to this" to "Waaaaaah, Elthina is a mean old lady!"

And I'm suppose to sit here and say "Oh that **** Anders! How could he murder such a fragle old woman in cold blood?!? How dare he fight against the Chantry for his freedom and the freedom of all mages! What is wrong with mages anyways? Why do they want their freedom so much?!?! Are they mentally ill?"

No you should say, "God damn it, Anders! You made things worse for mages! You had a bunch of them killed and the Circle murdered. Becasue of you, many families will be torn apart. The land is ravaged by war. People are dying everywhere. You killed innocent people. How far did killing them get you? Are mages free now, because you blew up a building, or are they more plauged than they have been in the last thousand years? What the hell were you thinking?" That's the normal response. Not a pat on the back. 

Modifié par Br3ad, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:02 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Silfren wrote...
, I celebrate it.

Yay for terrorism that causes a continent wide war that is most assuredly going to lead to the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocents!

Yay freedom for the mages... just the mages though those evil non-mages should learn their place!