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[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Lord Raijin wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Wrong, she wouldn’t have denied Meredith’s request to use the ROA earlier if she did, and she would’ve approve the Tranquil Solution as put forth by another Templar in Act 2. She did neither and kept out of the conflict, only stepping in when she thought it necessary to keep the two side from killing one another. Something Anders took note of as he killed her to prevent her from doing just that.

Elthina is the Commander and Chief of the templars in Kirkwall. She makes the final decisons. She denied Meredith's request like a President can reject his military Generals plans to infilrate a compound yard during war. It's techically the same thing. She probably rejected the ROA due to lack of evidence, and her excuse was probably gibberish. The old woman should've acknowledge a potential red flag that perhabs her Knight-Commander is a lose cannon? Knight-Commander Greagoir had valid reasons to request ROA to the Circle tower; Abominations and other demons that were summoned by weak mages were roaming free.

That is not Elthina's job. Also what you are describing is more like the Divine, not Elthina. Also, Meredith is in control. You can deny it all you want, but the people in Kirkwall obviously know a lot more than you do about this subject. And even if your straw grasping made any sense, what does this have to do with Anders?

Sorry, I'm missing something. what exactly are you saying is not Elthina's job?  As the Grand Cleric, she is indeed Meredith's superior and it is her responsibility to keep the Knight Commander in line.  Yes, the Divine is over her in authority, but Elthina herself is the Chantry authority in Kirkwall.

Go read the codex. It doesn't matter what we think should happen, Elthina does not have the authority to do anything to Meredith. While she technically should have had authority, Meredith is in control. This is obvious to anyone that actually looks for even the smallest of moments. Yes, Elthina should have not given Meredith power, but once it was given there's nothing else that can be done. Finally, you still fail to answer the question of how that justifies murdering her. 

No, Elthina's authority remains, regardless.  She may not have have power to back up that authority, but the authority itself was never in question.  And to say that nothing could have been done is ridiculous. Elthina was THE highest authority in the Free Marches, and in the Chantry's entire chain of command, literally the only person above her was the Divine herself.  Elthina had plenty of options at her disposal.

You should probably have told her that. Certainly everyone else in Kirkwall doesn't know what you know. Think of it this way. Congress had the "authority" and the most "power" to stop the US government from taking land from the Native Americans. They told Jackson to stop. They told our armies to stop. Did that stop us? No. Expecting it to work for Elithina anymore than Congress is a bit unfair, don't you think? 

I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything. 

[Silfren]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Silfren wrote...
, I celebrate it.

Yay for terrorism that causes a continent wide war that is most assuredly going to lead to the deaths of thousands upon thousands of innocents!

Yay freedom for the mages... just the mages though those evil non-mages should learn their place!

Yeah, I thought that might ruffle a few feathers. 

[Nohvarr]

I don't understand what you're arguing against here. What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power. As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact. By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her. I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game. That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in. It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.

Considering the events of Asunder, I' going with "lacked the power to do so"

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything.

The loyalty of Meredith's 'army' is not to her, but to their faith. They answer to Elthina before they answer to her. Them's the rules. The Chantry hires Templars based on the strength of their zealotry, their loyalty to the Chantry. If Elthina says Meredith isn't fit to lead, a significant portion of the Templars would turn on Meredith.

Meredith doesn't have as much 'support' as you imagine. She has critics and even outright rebels among the commoners, the nobility, the guard, and her own men. In fact, there was a conspiracy to have her ousted.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:14 .

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything.

The loyalty of Meredith's 'army' is not to her, but to their faith. They answer to Elthina before they answer to her. Them's the rules. The Chantry hires Templars based on the strength of their zealotry, their loyalty to the Chantry. If Elthina says Meredith isn't fit to lead, a significant portion of the Templars would turn on Meredith.

Meredith doesn't have as much 'support' as you imagine. She has critics and even outright rebels among the commoners, the nobility, the guard, and her own men. In fact, there was a conspiracy to have her ousted.

From the few Templars we talk to, this isn't true at all. Most of them say that they support Meredith out of loyalty or fear.  Not one of them says, "Because the Maker says so." 

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything. 

Regardless, Elthina was the ranking Chantry official, and the Chantry is (was) in charge of its templars.  Elthina did have the authority, and that authority gave her options to rein Meredith in.  You keep saying that she couldn't have, couldn't have, couldn't have, but I see no evidence in the game anywhere that she tried and failed.  What I do see tells me that Elthina had no interest in reining Meredith in, that she simply chose not to.  I see nothing in the game anywhere that tells me poor ol' Elthina just helplessly stood by and watched Meredith destroy the city.  Had that been the case, Elthina would have been no less responsible for putting a stop to it, by appealing to the Divine if nothing else.  But it's not what the game presents to us at all.

Elthina's authority didn't come from Meredith or any of the citizens of Kirkwall, it came from the Chantry.  There is no reason at all to think that Elthina couldn't have done something.  We do not know that the templars would have rejected her if she had issued orders direct to them--as was her right, being an authority that could override Meredith at any point.  But even so, as the Grand Cleric Elthina did indeed have the means of bringing Meredith to heel.  If her efforts had met with rejection, she could have and should have gone to the Divine for aid.  But, once again, that she did not, does not, I think, point to her lack of power, but to her willful choice to let Meredith do as she pleased.

[Plaintiff]

Br3ad wrote...

From the few Templars we talk to, this isn't true at all. Most of them say that they support Meredith out of loyalty or fear.  Not one of them says, "Because the Maker says so." 

Then they are traitors to the Chantry also, and can be punished accordingly.

All Elthina ever had to do was send a letter to the Divine saying 'Yo, Meredith is flouting Chantry authority and thinks God lives in her sword. Might wanna nip that in the bud. Send guys, ploxthx.'

There are only three reasons for failing to do so, and they are cowardice, malice, or sheer laziness.

Modifié par Plaintiff, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:20 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

In rides Mr.Bigotry himself!

This is gonna be good.

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything. 

Regardless, Elthina was the ranking Chantry official, and the Chantry is (was) in charge of its templars.  Elthina did have the authority, and that authority gave her options to rein Meredith in.  You keep saying that she couldn't have, couldn't have, couldn't have, but I see no evidence in the game anywhere that she tried and failed.  What I do see tells me that Elthina had no interest in reining Meredith in, that she simply chose not to.  I see nothing in the game anywhere that tells me poor ol' Elthina just helplessly stood by and watched Meredith destroy the city.  Had that been the case, Elthina would have been no less responsible for putting a stop to it, by appealing to the Divine if nothing else.  But it's not what the game presents to us at all.

Elthina's authority didn't come from Meredith or any of the citizens of Kirkwall, it came from the Chantry.  There is no reason at all to think that Elthina couldn't have done something.  We do not know that the templars would have rejected her if she had issued orders direct to them--as was her right, being an authority that could override Meredith at any point.  But even so, as the Grand Cleric Elthina did indeed have the means of bringing Meredith to heel.  If her efforts had met with rejection, she could have and should have gone to the Divine for aid.  But, once again, that she did not, does not, I think, point to her lack of power, but to her willful choice to let Meredith do as she pleased.

Regardless, Congress should have stopped Jackson. They had the power to control the army on paper so they should have stopped him. They should have marched right into his face and then say, "Stop shooting Indians." Congress is to blame and it's only justified that.....

[d-boy15]

Plaintiff wrote...
The loyalty of Meredith's 'army' is not to her, but to their faith. They answer to Elthina before they answer to her. Them's the rules. The Chantry hires Templars based on the strength of their zealotry, their loyalty to the Chantry. If Elthina says Meredith isn't fit to lead, a significant portion of the Templars would turn on Meredith.

Meredith doesn't have as much 'support' as you imagine. She has critics among the commoners, the nobility, the guard, and her own men. In fact, there was a conspiracy to have her ousted.

And Chantry and Divine hold higher authority than Elthina. Did that help them stop Templar from
rebelled after DA2?

Did the Divine authority stop Lambert? Was "King" title of Cailan bring Loghain army to charge? 

Plaintiff wrote...
All Elthina ever had to do was send a letter to the Divine saying 'Yo, Meredith is flouting Chantry authority and thinks God lives in her sword. Might wanna nip that in the bud. Send guys, ploxthx.'

There are only three reasons for failing to do so, and they are cowardice, malice, or sheer laziness.

That must really works, since the Divine already make up her mind that Kirkwall is a potential threat and
possibly fall in to mages extremist even become next Tevinter.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:29 .

[Br3admax]

Plaintiff wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

From the few Templars we talk to, this isn't true at all. Most of them say that they support Meredith out of loyalty or fear.  Not one of them says, "Because the Maker says so." 

Then they are traitors to the Chantry also, and can be punished accordingly.

All Elthina ever had to do was send a letter to the Divine saying 'Yo, Meredith is flouting Chantry authority and thinks God lives in her sword. Might wanna nip that in the bud. Send guys, ploxthx.'

There are only three reasons for failing to do so, and they are cowardice, malice, or sheer laziness.

Actually the normal people have been doing that for a while, according to Elthina's codex page. I don't think it's been working. 

I'm not disputing that she is at fault for how power mad Meredith became before Act III, but once that threshold has been passed, it's done. 

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything. 

Regardless, Elthina was the ranking Chantry official, and the Chantry is (was) in charge of its templars.  Elthina did have the authority, and that authority gave her options to rein Meredith in.  You keep saying that she couldn't have, couldn't have, couldn't have, but I see no evidence in the game anywhere that she tried and failed.  What I do see tells me that Elthina had no interest in reining Meredith in, that she simply chose not to.  I see nothing in the game anywhere that tells me poor ol' Elthina just helplessly stood by and watched Meredith destroy the city.  Had that been the case, Elthina would have been no less responsible for putting a stop to it, by appealing to the Divine if nothing else.  But it's not what the game presents to us at all.

Elthina's authority didn't come from Meredith or any of the citizens of Kirkwall, it came from the Chantry.  There is no reason at all to think that Elthina couldn't have done something.  We do not know that the templars would have rejected her if she had issued orders direct to them--as was her right, being an authority that could override Meredith at any point.  But even so, as the Grand Cleric Elthina did indeed have the means of bringing Meredith to heel.  If her efforts had met with rejection, she could have and should have gone to the Divine for aid.  But, once again, that she did not, does not, I think, point to her lack of power, but to her willful choice to let Meredith do as she pleased.

Regardless, Congress should have stopped Jackson. They had the power to control the army on paper so they should have stopped him. They should have marched right into his face and then say, "Stop shooting Indians." Congress is to blame and it's only justified that.....

You keep bringing this up as if it is in any way analagous or relevant, and it ain't.  Please cease and desist.  

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...
The loyalty of Meredith's 'army' is not to her, but to their faith. They answer to Elthina before they answer to her. Them's the rules. The Chantry hires Templars based on the strength of their zealotry, their loyalty to the Chantry. If Elthina says Meredith isn't fit to lead, a significant portion of the Templars would turn on Meredith.

Meredith doesn't have as much 'support' as you imagine. She has critics among the commoners, the nobility, the guard, and her own men. In fact, there was a conspiracy to have her ousted.

And Chantry and Divine hold higher authority than Elthina. Did that help them stop Templar from
rebelled after DA2?

Did the Divine authority stop Lambert? Was "King" title of Cailan bring Loghain army to charge?

None of this means anything in making whatever your point is.  We don't have a clue how the Chantry reacted to the Templars leaving, just like we don't know if all the templars followed Lambert or not.  Having a authority doesn't mean you have some magical ability to keep your people from rebelling.  It does, however, mean you have the legal right to put the rebellion down.

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...
Having a authority doesn't mean you have some magical ability to keep your people from rebelling.  It does, however, mean you have the legal right to put the rebellion down.

How you can put down rebellion if they not gonna listen to you? You can scream about legal right all you want
but it make no difference when you unarmed and face a guy with sword.

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Silfren wrote...


I don't understand what you're arguing against here.  What you're calling authority and saying she had none of, isn't authority at all, but power.  As far as authority goes, that is, yes, an indisputable fact.  By Chantry law, Elthina is Meredith's superior and by that law, Meredith is answerable to her.  I'm not making this up, this isn't my headcanon. This is the lore of the damned game.  That Elthina didn't rein Meredith in doesn't mean she didn't have the authority to do so, it means either that she lacked the power to do so, or, as is my personal view, chose not to rein Meredith in.  It is precisely this fact, that Elthina did indeed have ranking authority over Meredith, and does not at all appear to be weak and doddering, that makes me think she was acting for her own reasons.  

Let me put this in terms that even an Ander's supporter can't deny. It doesn't matter what power we are supposed to have in theory. You only have as much power as others give you. You see, unlike mages, might is not right here. Support gives strength. If Meredith has an army, who really has power. Ranking authority means nothing when it has no weight behind it. A punch of people saying, "Yay! Elthina!" does not change the fact that she cannot do anything. 

Regardless, Elthina was the ranking Chantry official, and the Chantry is (was) in charge of its templars.  Elthina did have the authority, and that authority gave her options to rein Meredith in.  You keep saying that she couldn't have, couldn't have, couldn't have, but I see no evidence in the game anywhere that she tried and failed.  What I do see tells me that Elthina had no interest in reining Meredith in, that she simply chose not to.  I see nothing in the game anywhere that tells me poor ol' Elthina just helplessly stood by and watched Meredith destroy the city.  Had that been the case, Elthina would have been no less responsible for putting a stop to it, by appealing to the Divine if nothing else.  But it's not what the game presents to us at all.

Elthina's authority didn't come from Meredith or any of the citizens of Kirkwall, it came from the Chantry.  There is no reason at all to think that Elthina couldn't have done something.  We do not know that the templars would have rejected her if she had issued orders direct to them--as was her right, being an authority that could override Meredith at any point.  But even so, as the Grand Cleric Elthina did indeed have the means of bringing Meredith to heel.  If her efforts had met with rejection, she could have and should have gone to the Divine for aid.  But, once again, that she did not, does not, I think, point to her lack of power, but to her willful choice to let Meredith do as she pleased.

Regardless, Congress should have stopped Jackson. They had the power to control the army on paper so they should have stopped him. They should have marched right into his face and then say, "Stop shooting Indians." Congress is to blame and it's only justified that.....

You keep bringing this up as if it is in any way analagous or relevant, and it ain't.  Please cease and desist.  

Why is it never applicable when it's IRL with the exact same conditions? "It's not like real terrorism, because freedom." "It ain't the same because mage freedom."

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Having a authority doesn't mean you have some magical ability to keep your people from rebelling.  It does, however, mean you have the legal right to put the rebellion down.

How you can put down rebellion if they not gonna listen to you? You can scream about legal right all you want
but it make no difference when you unarmed and face a guy with sword.

For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  This would definitely be the course of events in Orlais, where the secular government and the Chantry are closely intertwined.

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:40 .

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...


For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.  

Turned out those monarch are too busy about their internal affair to take the throne. Ferelden ain't gonna
march their army in to freemarch, they still in rebuilding and it's not their lands. Tevinter didn't care for it.
Rivani is too far and Starkheaven still in fight.

We also known nothing about orlesian monarch stance on this conflict, they probably support Templar. 

All Templar didn't followed Lambert but it's enough to cripple to Chantry power, some Seeker still royal to
Divine and under Cassandra commands but still if they really desperate to seek Hawke help that means
ain't much of them left.

Modifié par d-boy15, 10 octobre 2013 - 06:50 .

[Reaverwind]

Silfren wrote...

For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  This would definitely be the course of events in Orlais, where the secular government and the Chantry are closely intertwined.

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.

I don't think so. I think it more likely the various monarchs have a vested interest in marginalizing the Chantry, which has historically always acted in the interests of Orlais. Some might even be open to cutting deals with the Templars to make it happen.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:03 .

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...


For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.  

Turned out those monarch are too busy about their internal affair to take the throne. Ferelden ain't gonna
march their army in to freemarch, they still in rebuilding and it's not their lands. Tevinter didn't care for it.
Rivani is too far and Starkheaven still in fight.

We also known nothing about orlesian monarch stance on this conflict, they probably support Templar. 

All Templar didn't followed Lambert but it's enough to cripple to Chantry power, some Seeker still royal to
Divine and under Cassandra commands but still if they really desperate to seek Hawke help that means
ain't much of them left.

.....The Orlesian monarch is not going to support Tevinter. That doesn't even make sense.  Never mind, I completely misread that statement.  Regardless, I seriously doubt that Celene would support the templars.  The Orlesian Chantry and the secular government of Orlais are very closely aligned.  It's ludicrous that Celene would withdraw her support from the Chantry to support the rogue templars instead.

Yes on all these points, but I was addressing the question as if under normal, non-world-descending-into-anarchy circumstances, and two, we don't know any of these things at the end of DA2.  It's getting far and away from the question of whether Elthina had the authority to do something about Meredith, which she did, full stop, and the relevant question on that point: did she not act against Meredith because she truly didn't have the power to, or did she not act against Meredith because she did not wish to.  Obviously, I take the latter view, because nothing in the game convinces me that Elthina was a frail and helpless old lady who wanted the best for everyone but just didn't have the power to do anything.  NOTHING about the game suggests this at all.  

The question I have for you is, why are you oblivious to the fact that at any point, Elthina could have sent to the Divine if she thought she didn't have the power on her own to stop Meredith, and requested assistance?  Or, if she didn't think she could do anythng about it, why didn't Elthina step down and give her position over to someone who actually would exercise the authority and power granted to the title of Grand Cleric.  Even if it were true that Elthina couldn't do anything about Meredith herself, nothing about that excuses her response of throwing up her hands and letting the situation go on unabated.

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:11 .

[Silfren]

Reaverwind wrote...

Silfren wrote...

For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  This would definitely be the course of events in Orlais, where the secular government and the Chantry are closely intertwined.

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.

I don't think so. I think it more likely the various monarchs have a vested interest in marginalizing the Chantry, which has historically always acted in the interests of Orlais. Some might even be open to cutting deals with the Templars to make it happen.

I don't think so, really.  I don't think any monarch would see it in their interest to support the templars.  It's true that some monarchs might want to lessen the Chantry's influence, but that's not necessarily going to be a given.  No nation would want to pit itself against Orlais and the Chantry unless it was damned certain of coming out ahead.  But the templars themselves are an unpredictable faction under Lambert.  They've made it clear they have no interest in submitting to authority, and they are the fanatical extreme of the Order.  I don't think any nation would be wise in cutting deals with them.

[Reaverwind]

Silfren wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Silfren wrote...

For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  This would definitely be the course of events in Orlais, where the secular government and the Chantry are closely intertwined.

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.

I don't think so. I think it more likely the various monarchs have a vested interest in marginalizing the Chantry, which has historically always acted in the interests of Orlais. Some might even be open to cutting deals with the Templars to make it happen.

I don't think so, really.  I don't think any monarch would see it in their interest to support the templars.  It's true that some monarchs might want to lessen the Chantry's influence, but that's not necessarily going to be a given.  No nation would want to pit itself against Orlais and the Chantry unless it was damned certain of coming out ahead.  But the templars themselves are an unpredictable faction under Lambert.  They've made it clear they have no interest in submitting to authority, and they are the fanatical extreme of the Order.  I don't think any nation would be wise in cutting deals with them.

Who said anything about pitting themselves against Orlais? Orlais is too busy dealing with internal strife, anyway. The Chantry has lost its army. Seriously, what can the Chantry do if one or more monarchs pulls a Henry VIII? Threaten to excommunicate? LOL

Modifié par Reaverwind, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:14 .

[Silfren]

Reaverwind wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Reaverwind wrote...

Silfren wrote...

For one thing, the secular governments of the world have a vested interest in not having a bunch of templars running about and tearing up the place, just like the Chantry can't afford to have its soldiers getting all uppity.  The first logical thing would be for the Chantry to ally with various monarchs and use their armies to beat the templars down.  This would definitely be the course of events in Orlais, where the secular government and the Chantry are closely intertwined.

Secondly, I must repeat myself often, it seems, I don't believe for a moment that all the Templars followed Lambert, just like we know for a fact that not all the Seekers did.  More than a few Templars would, as was pointed out, see the Chantry as their lord and master.  So I don't think that the Chantry would be completely without an army.

I don't think so. I think it more likely the various monarchs have a vested interest in marginalizing the Chantry, which has historically always acted in the interests of Orlais. Some might even be open to cutting deals with the Templars to make it happen.

I don't think so, really.  I don't think any monarch would see it in their interest to support the templars.  It's true that some monarchs might want to lessen the Chantry's influence, but that's not necessarily going to be a given.  No nation would want to pit itself against Orlais and the Chantry unless it was damned certain of coming out ahead.  But the templars themselves are an unpredictable faction under Lambert.  They've made it clear they have no interest in submitting to authority, and they are the fanatical extreme of the Order.  I don't think any nation would be wise in cutting deals with them.

Who said anything about pitting themselves against Orlais? Orlais is too busy dealing with internal strife, anyway. The Chantry has lost its army. Seriously, what can the Chantry do if one or more monarchs pulls a Henry VIII? Threaten to excommunicate? LOL

That remains to be seen, obviously.  Starting with the fact that I don't believe the Chantry lost its entire army.  I don't disagree with your point, but I also think that a few nations might have other things to worry about than trying to marginalize the Chantry, and I don't think at all that any nation with any sense would go making deals with lyrium addicted fanatical rogue soldiers.  Either way, I'm sleep deprived and trying to have two entirely different topics of discussion here...this discussion is getting away from me a bit, because my original focus was on the question of Elthina's authority under the state of affairs up to no later than the end of DA2.  I'd love to speculate on this other conversation, but somewhere else.  Fact is, we don't know what the world state is going to be when Inquisition comes out, and if I"m not mistaken, the book about Orlais will be coming out first. For all we know, the civil war may be resolved by then, to set up the state of Orlais prior to the release of DA:I. 

Modifié par Silfren, 10 octobre 2013 - 07:23 .