727 réponses à ce sujet

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

My opinion of Elthina has nothing at all to do with the story "saying" she was keeping Meredith in line. There's a LOT more to characters in a story than what comes out of their mouths or what other characters say about them.

This is true. But generally, alternate interpretations are supported by the story itself. Not something you just make up to try and make your position better. Elthina being secretly evil and wanting to murder the mages or side with Meredith is not supported by anything in the actual game itself. And in fact, the game's story contradicts it.

And my interpretation IS supported by the story, so we're good.  The fact that you don't agree with my assessment of Elthina hardly means that my interpration is not supported by the story and I just made it up.  Especially since I've already pointed to examples--you can hardly claim I made them up, being as how they're in everyone's game.

I should point out that I never said Elthina was evil.  I do think it's pretty damned clear that she supports Meredith, but it doesn't necessarily follow that she actively hates mages and wants them dead.  I don't claim to know precisely what Elthina was up to and why, but I nevertheless think the game paints a clear picture that she was serving her own interests in some way that involved keeping Meredith in power.

Modifié par Silfren, 11 octobre 2013 - 12:34 .

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

I have yet to see any evidence from any codex entry, character dialog, or even word from Gaider that supports it. Sorry.

Elthina's flaw was that she was too compromising to both parties instead of putting her foot down. Not that she was secretly in league with the templars.

*shrug* Dude, it's up to you how you interpret the lore.  But the examples I've given ARE in the game, so you don't get to claim I've made anything up. 

[Br3admax]

I would also like the interpretation that is given on why we should blow up people.

[Master Warder Z_]

Not in my playthroughs filthy robe

got what he deserved for his act of madness.

[Silfren]

Morocco Mole wrote...

Well post them then.

LOL, I already did, as I JUST pointed out. I'm not going to re-iterate things I've already said just because you missed them the first time.  Go back a page or two and look.

[schalafi]

Wow...I just stopped in for a peek at what was going on. What ever happened to the topic of Anders appearing in DA:I???

[Master Warder Z_]

Silfren wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Well post them then.

LOL, I already did, as I JUST pointed out. I'm not going to re-iterate things I've already said just because you missed them the first time.  Go back a page or two and look.

I missed a big majority of this but from what i have skimmed from the past few pages you defend Anders killing the inhabitants of the Kirkwall chantry in that act of terror?

[Master Warder Z_]

schalafi wrote...

Wow...I just stopped in for a peek at what was going on. What ever happened to the topic of Anders appearing in DA:I???

Things go off the rails constantly on the BSN.

[Br3admax]

Well you should know that the Grand Cleric does not clearly support Meredith based on any of that. Fallicitic logic doesn't get you anywhere, especially considering that most people go to her to keep Meredith calm and less extreme; however, you'll remove this evidence because it doesn't support your argument that clearly Elthina supports being insane contrary to the belief of everyone else. Also, Elthina supports Hawke more than anyone else, she'll decide the way you decide.

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...

The question I have for you is, why are you oblivious to the fact that at any point, Elthina could have sent to the Divine if she thought she didn't have the power on her own to stop Meredith, and requested assistance?  Or, if she didn't think she could do anythng about it, why didn't Elthina step down and give her position over to someone who actually would exercise the authority and power granted to the title of Grand Cleric.  Even if it were true that Elthina couldn't do anything about Meredith herself, nothing about that excuses her response of throwing up her hands and letting the situation go on unabated.

She didn't wish to take a side and simply want to appeal both side instead. Take out Meredith mean she sided
with Mages and probably cause a doubt among Templar.

Elthina can do anything about Meredith but that mean she can't remain neutral and had to take a side. She didn't
step down because she believe that she can stop violance between mage and templar (and it's true, Anders had
to take her out in order to cause a war "I remove a chance to compromise").

Also, the Divine is already led to believe Kirkwall is in danger to fall in to mages, she even had an idea of march
the divine army to Kirkwall. Why do you think she gonna listen about Knight Commander go over authority when
a mage threat seem real enough to justify Knight Commander action?

[Master Warder Z_]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The question I have for you is, why are you oblivious to the fact that at any point, Elthina could have sent to the Divine if she thought she didn't have the power on her own to stop Meredith, and requested assistance?  Or, if she didn't think she could do anythng about it, why didn't Elthina step down and give her position over to someone who actually would exercise the authority and power granted to the title of Grand Cleric.  Even if it were true that Elthina couldn't do anything about Meredith herself, nothing about that excuses her response of throwing up her hands and letting the situation go on unabated.

She didn't wish to take a side and simply want to appeal both side instead. Take out Meredith mean she sided
with Mages and probably cause a doubt among Templar.

Elthina can do anything about Meredith but that mean she can't remain neutral and had to take a side. She didn't
step down because she believe that she can stop violance between mage and templar (and it's true, Anders had
to take her out in order to cause a war "I remove a chance to compromise").

Also, the Divine is already led to believe Kirkwall is in danger to fall in to mages, she even had an idea of march
the divine army to Kirkwall. Why do you think she gonna listen about Knight Commander go over authority when
a mage threat seem real enough to justify Knight Commander action?

Grammatic soundness aside.

Agreed.

[Silfren]

Master Warder Z wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Morocco Mole wrote...

Well post them then.

LOL, I already did, as I JUST pointed out. I'm not going to re-iterate things I've already said just because you missed them the first time.  Go back a page or two and look.

I missed a big majority of this but from what i have skimmed from the past few pages you defend Anders killing the inhabitants of the Kirkwall chantry in that act of terror?

I do in fact, though I've actually spent the last few pages arguing about Elthina and not Anders at all.  But yes, I do support what Anders did, not least because I do NOT think it was an act of terrorism but the opening salvo as an act of war. 

I suppose now people will start screaming about what a horrific person I am and start trying to lecture me on what terrorism is and isn't, despite the fact that there isn't a singular definition for it and there never has been.

[Silfren]

Br3ad wrote...

Well you should know that the Grand Cleric does not clearly support Meredith based on any of that. Fallicitic logic doesn't get you anywhere, especially considering that most people go to her to keep Meredith calm and less extreme; however, you'll remove this evidence because it doesn't support your argument that clearly Elthina supports being insane contrary to the belief of everyone else. Also, Elthina supports Hawke more than anyone else, she'll decide the way you decide.

Uh, yeah, I'm not going to "remove" any evidence.  I may reach a different conclusion, and that seems to really bother you, but it's not the same thing as what you imply at all. 

I don't have to ignore evidence that doesn't support my argument about Elthina (though my argument about her is NOT what you claim, I can simply examine it and decide that my previous conclusion still makes more sense, which is perfectly reasonable. 

That said, I'm not gonna lie, a lot of your post is damn near incomprehensible.

[AresKeith]

schalafi wrote...

Wow...I just stopped in for a peek at what was going on. What ever happened to the topic of Anders appearing in DA:I???

Anders is a serious topic lol 

[Silfren]

d-boy15 wrote...

Silfren wrote...

The question I have for you is, why are you oblivious to the fact that at any point, Elthina could have sent to the Divine if she thought she didn't have the power on her own to stop Meredith, and requested assistance?  Or, if she didn't think she could do anythng about it, why didn't Elthina step down and give her position over to someone who actually would exercise the authority and power granted to the title of Grand Cleric.  Even if it were true that Elthina couldn't do anything about Meredith herself, nothing about that excuses her response of throwing up her hands and letting the situation go on unabated.

She didn't wish to take a side and simply want to appeal both side instead. Take out Meredith mean she sided
with Mages and probably cause a doubt among Templar.

Elthina can do anything about Meredith but that mean she can't remain neutral and had to take a side. She didn't
step down because she believe that she can stop violance between mage and templar (and it's true, Anders had
to take her out in order to cause a war "I remove a chance to compromise").

Also, the Divine is already led to believe Kirkwall is in danger to fall in to mages, she even had an idea of march
the divine army to Kirkwall. Why do you think she gonna listen about Knight Commander go over authority when
a mage threat seem real enough to justify Knight Commander action?

No, no, and no.  Removing Meredith to replace her with another templar would have just been Elthina exercising her right and it certainly didn't have to have anything to do with mages, as Meredith had overstepped her bounds quite aside from her treatment of mages.  There's no reason to think it would have caused doubt amongst the templars, whatever that means, especially when it looks like at least a few templars would have supported this, and she certainly would have had the support of the general populace. But the bottom line is that it's absurd to think that a Grand Cleric would be afraid of removing a Knight Commander from power because the templars might be given to doubt because of that.  The templars don't have anything to say about it, and if they do, then Elthina has the right to slap them all down with support from the Divine.

As for taking sides, by not taking a side, Elthina is effectively siding with Meredith and the templars. 

Modifié par Silfren, 11 octobre 2013 - 01:15 .

[AresKeith]

Silfren wrote...

As for taking sides, by not taking a side, Elthina is effectively siding with Meredith and the templars. 

This is why I don't take Pro-Mages (or Pro-Templars) serious at all

[Br3admax]

Silfren wrote...

Br3ad wrote...

Well you should know that the Grand Cleric does not clearly support Meredith based on any of that. Fallicitic logic doesn't get you anywhere, especially considering that most people go to her to keep Meredith calm and less extreme; however, you'll remove this evidence because it doesn't support your argument that clearly Elthina supports being insane contrary to the belief of everyone else. Also, Elthina supports Hawke more than anyone else, she'll decide the way you decide.

Uh, yeah, I'm not going to "remove" any evidence.  I may reach a different conclusion, and that seems to really bother you, but it's not the same thing as what you imply at all. 

I don't have to ignore evidence that doesn't support my argument about Elthina (though my argument about her is NOT what you claim, I can simply examine it and decide that my previous conclusion still makes more sense, which is perfectly reasonable. 

That said, I'm not gonna lie, a lot of your post is damn near incomprehensible.

That's exactly what you're doing. "She doesn't do this; therefore, she wants that. Forget all of this, when there's that right there" You're previous conclusion is that Elthina must suppor the Templar agenda set by Meredith because she doesn't  stop Meredith even though this 

a) Makes no sense by the actions she takes in game.
Goes agains the actions she displays in the codex
c) Goes against Meredith's own statements
d) is supported by nothing more than your opinion.

You can ignore it all you want, but nothing suggests that Elthina thinks that Meredith's actions are just. That's just another way that you try to justify her death, when really there is no way to justify it. You can pretend that you don't understand that, or you can face the truth: Elthina was a priest that took no part in the bickering between either sides and trusted that a peaceful outcome could be accomplsihed. She was a women known for her kindness to all and did not deserve to die the way that she did. 

[Hellion Rex]

AresKeith wrote...

Silfren wrote...

As for taking sides, by not taking a side, Elthina is effectively siding with Meredith and the templars. 

This is why I don't take Pro-Mages (or Pro-Templars) serious at all

Strictly neutral than? I can respect that.

[spirosz]

Who is this Anders we speak of?

[Br3admax]

spirosz wrote...

Who is this Anders we speak of?

The savior of all mage kind and a just freedom fighter. 

[d-boy15]

Silfren wrote...
No, no, and no.  Removing Meredith to replace her with another templar would have just been Elthina exercising her right.  There's no reason to think it would have caused doubt amongst the templars, whatever that means, especially when it looks like at least a few templars would have supported this, and she certainly would have had the support of the general populace. But the bottom line is that it's absurd to think that a Grand Cleric would be afraid of removing a Knight Commander from power because the templars might be given to doubt because of that.  The templars don't have anything to say about it, and if they do, then Elthina has the right to slap them all down with support from the Divine.

As for taking sides, by not taking a side, Elthina is effectively siding with Meredith and the templars. 

How? Meredith still operate under Chantry laws and the mage threat in Kirkwall is real, not a delusion.
The majority of templar in Kirkwall still support Meredith too. Only a few of them try to remove her from
power and that consider a traitor.

Also, the tempalr doubt is only my opinion and it's seem you don't understand about the different between
authority and power (or try not to).

Do I need to tell you again that the divine already make up her mind about Kirkwall?

You didn't want her to use her authority, you just need her to use authority to help mages, that's a different.

As for taking sides, by not taking a side, Elthina is effectively siding with Meredith and the templars. 

Ok, then that's mean the citizen of Kirkwall is siding with Meredith too right? they didn't do anything about it too?