171 réponses à ce sujet

[TK514]

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) Companion interactive scenes.
The scenes are so much more varied than in DAO, often featuring more than one companion plus Hawke. That does not extend to companion banter, which was more varied in DAO.

(3) Companion characterization and banter. I like both sets of companions, but DA2's were more one-dimensional. There's also more varied banter in DAO.

Could you define what you mean by 'banter'?  When I see that, I think of the unprompted conversations while wandering the world.  Not only did I find these very memorable in DA2, I thought they were fantastic at helping characterize the participants, both for the player as 3rd party observer and in relation to each other.

By contrast, the only 'open world' convo I can recall from DA:O, having played them back to back recently, is Morrigan/Alistair at the beginning of the game, and only because I was just on DA Wiki and they use a phrase from it in their spoiler tags.

[Twisted Path]

Things I liked about DA2:
- Giving rogues and warriors some slightly more versatile powers like crowd control and buffs so you could make some interesting builds.
- Faster movement speed during combat.
- Rogues having a lot of armor that looked like cool swashbuckler outfits instead of generic leather armor. Mages getting a couple of outfits with pants too (but not nearly enough.)

That's about it.

Edit: A sad thing about Dragon Age 2 that's often brought up is that the game had a ton of interesting ideas (time skips, the protagonist not being any sort of Chosen One, your reputation giving you extra options later in the game, the setting being an open City of Adventure,) that just never even came close to being halfway used. Those breaks from the Bioware formula are great and are in no way what made DA2 a bad game.

Modifié par Twisted Path, 23 août 2013 - 07:26 .

[Ieldra]

TK514 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

(2) Companion interactive scenes.
The scenes are so much more varied than in DAO, often featuring more than one companion plus Hawke. That does not extend to companion banter, which was more varied in DAO.

(3) Companion characterization and banter. I like both sets of companions, but DA2's were more one-dimensional. There's also more varied banter in DAO.

Could you define what you mean by 'banter'?  When I see that, I think of the unprompted conversations while wandering the world.  Not only did I find these very memorable in DA2, I thought they were fantastic at helping characterize the participants, both for the player as 3rd party observer and in relation to each other.

By contrast, the only 'open world' convo I can recall from DA:O, having played them back to back recently, is Morrigan/Alistair at the beginning of the game, and only because I was just on DA Wiki and they use a phrase from it in their spoiler tags.

DAO and DA2 have the same style of banter - indeed those unprompted conversation, which are actually prompted by certain triggers, such as visiting location X for the first time after event Y with companions A and B in your party or suchlike. DAO has quite a lot of them, strange that you didn't notice. There may be fewer than in DA2 or the same number spread over a longer game, but they are much more variable. DA2's are more one-dimensional. Have Isabela take part and you can bet it's about sex, for instance. DA2's companion banter contributes significantly to the impression that DA2's characters are one-dimensional, created around one dominating trait, rather than being a little more rounded like DAO's companions.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 août 2013 - 07:28 .

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
DAO and DA2 have the same style of banter - indeed those unprompted conversation, which are actually prompted by certain triggers, such as visiting location X for the first time after event Y with companions A and B in your party or suchlike. DAO has quite a lot of them, strange that you didn't notice. There may be fewer than in DA2 or the same number spread over a longer game, but they are much more variable. DA2's are more one-dimensional. Have Isabela take part and you can bet it's about sex, for instance. DA2's companion banter contributes significantly to the impression that DA2's characters are one-dimensional, created around one dominating trait, rather than being a little more rounded like DAO's companions.

DA:O's banters are similarly one dimensional - each character interaction is about one thing, e.g. Alistair/Morrigain about their mutual dislike, Sten/Morrigain about her come-on and Sten's trolling, Alistair/Wynne about Alistiar looking for a mother figure ... the only pairing that I can think of that really had two themes to it was Morrigain/Leliana. 

[Nerevar-as]

In Exile wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
DAO and DA2 have the same style of banter - indeed those unprompted conversation, which are actually prompted by certain triggers, such as visiting location X for the first time after event Y with companions A and B in your party or suchlike. DAO has quite a lot of them, strange that you didn't notice. There may be fewer than in DA2 or the same number spread over a longer game, but they are much more variable. DA2's are more one-dimensional. Have Isabela take part and you can bet it's about sex, for instance. DA2's companion banter contributes significantly to the impression that DA2's characters are one-dimensional, created around one dominating trait, rather than being a little more rounded like DAO's companions.

DA:O's banters are similarly one dimensional - each character interaction is about one thing, e.g. Alistair/Morrigain about their mutual dislike, Sten/Morrigain about her come-on and Sten's trolling, Alistair/Wynne about Alistiar looking for a mother figure ... the only pairing that I can think of that really had two themes to it was Morrigain/Leliana. 

Leliana hitting on Morrigan was gold, Characters in Origins were more complex though, in DA2 they were what you saw, or worse, with Isabella for instance going from "Has sex with anything that moves" to "gets half of KW razed and scotts free". But Fenris is just a dark angry guy, Anders another kind of dark angry guy (girls really like that kind of characters?), Merrill goes back an forth between sweet naivete and bloody idiot, and so on.

[Nyneve]

Nerevar-as wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
DAO and DA2 have the same style of banter - indeed those unprompted conversation, which are actually prompted by certain triggers, such as visiting location X for the first time after event Y with companions A and B in your party or suchlike. DAO has quite a lot of them, strange that you didn't notice. There may be fewer than in DA2 or the same number spread over a longer game, but they are much more variable. DA2's are more one-dimensional. Have Isabela take part and you can bet it's about sex, for instance. DA2's companion banter contributes significantly to the impression that DA2's characters are one-dimensional, created around one dominating trait, rather than being a little more rounded like DAO's companions.

DA:O's banters are similarly one dimensional - each character interaction is about one thing, e.g. Alistair/Morrigain about their mutual dislike, Sten/Morrigain about her come-on and Sten's trolling, Alistair/Wynne about Alistiar looking for a mother figure ... the only pairing that I can think of that really had two themes to it was Morrigain/Leliana. 

Leliana hitting on Morrigan was gold, Characters in Origins were more complex though, in DA2 they were what you saw, or worse, with Isabella for instance going from "Has sex with anything that moves" to "gets half of KW razed and scotts free". But Fenris is just a dark angry guy, Anders another kind of dark angry guy (girls really like that kind of characters?), Merrill goes back an forth between sweet naivete and bloody idiot, and so on.

Meh, you can generalze every character in that way. Alistair was an awkward virgin (with a dark past), Morrigan was the Ice Queen (with a dark past), Leliana was the girly girl (with a dark past), Sten was the stoic warrior guy (with guess what) etc. I found them to be just as complex as the DA2 companions. Companion interaction was limited in DA2, I'd have liked to be able to speak with them whenever, but that doesn't mean they're not as complex.

[ghost_ronin]

Approximately 87% of the combat mechanics, 90% of the fancy animations, 0% more auto-attack and 104% chest-hair.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Twisted Path wrote...

Edit: A sad thing about Dragon Age 2 that's often brought up is that the game had a ton of interesting ideas (time skips, the protagonist not being any sort of Chosen One, your reputation giving you extra options later in the game, the setting being an open City of Adventure,) that just never even came close to being halfway used. Those breaks from the Bioware formula are great and are in no way what made DA2 a bad game.

I completely agree.  I hope BioWare knows that there were some genuinely good ideas in DA2 - they just weren't implemented very well.

[Realmzmaster]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

[Me personally I despise almost every aspect about it. It's just so far detatched from what a D&D style FRPG should be that it leaves a foul taste in my mouth. 70's kung fu action? Really? I don't advocate personal abuse towards BW staff, but whoever decided to make the game walk that path should be contributing a portion of their wage to the other, better mambers of the team for sure.

What is a D & D style FRPG?  By that reasoning DAO was just as much a departure as DA2 especially in comparison to BG1 and BG2.
Kung Fu action? I do remember that it is D & D that has a monk class. If you are talking about the rogue animinations they are just that animations.

I liked DA2 it has lots of good ideas. The implementation was flawed in places.

I like the combat in DA2 compared to DAO.
Cross class combos
Mage melee and spell attacks are vastly improved over DAO.
The skill trees in DA2 were better implemented than the ones in DAO.
The rogue was actually interesting to play and light years ahead of DAO's rogue. The animations do not bother me.
A storyline that was different from previous Bioware storylines.
Voiced protagonist
The companions in DA2 were just as deep and interesting as the ones in DAO..
I like the graphics better in DA2 than DAO.
The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

I even like the wave combat, but it should be used sparingly and where appropriate.
The unstructured narrative.
I do not want the typical set encounters seen in DAO.

I want the tactical camera back.
Bioware has already stated that the recycled environments will be gone.

As I stated DA2 had a lot of good ideas. I am not tied to the D & D style of FRPG. I am all for games based on T & T,  GURPS, Dragonquest, RuneQuest, Powers & Perils, and World of Darkness. I like crpgs that do not stick to the D & D formula.

[funmachine]

Nerevar-as wrote...

funmachine wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Heck of a lot of "No DA:2"

BW would do well to heed this IMO.

Yes, that's a wonderful idea. Ignore everything positive said about the game to appease the totally irrational rabid haters.

The problem with DA2 is that complaints about it are quite rational and grounded. Besides removing the combat strafing to get into position, it´s far worse than Origins in everything.

Personal opinion I guess... Just to be clear, Im not denying the game has glaring flaws. My reaction was more directed towards the OP who is outright ignoring every single thing people point out as improvement over DA:O just because he hates DA2 (which is why I threw "irrational" in there). That's complete BS if you start a topic asking people what features they'd like to see return to DA:I.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it... 

[Anomaly-]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I like the combat in DA2 compared to DAO.
Cross class combos
Mage melee and spell attacks are vastly improved over DAO.
The skill trees in DA2 were better implemented than the ones in DAO.
The rogue was actually interesting to play and light years ahead of DAO's rogue. The animations do not bother me.
A storyline that was different from previous Bioware storylines.
Voiced protagonist
The companions in DA2 were just as deep and interesting as the ones in DAO..
I like the graphics better in DA2 than DAO.
The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

It really is amazing how polarising DA2 is. I literally feel the exact opposite about everything you listed.

Modifié par Anomaly-, 23 août 2013 - 10:42 .

[Nerevar-as]

funmachine wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...

funmachine wrote...

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Heck of a lot of "No DA:2"

BW would do well to heed this IMO.

Yes, that's a wonderful idea. Ignore everything positive said about the game to appease the totally irrational rabid haters.

The problem with DA2 is that complaints about it are quite rational and grounded. Besides removing the combat strafing to get into position, it´s far worse than Origins in everything.

Personal opinion I guess... Just to be clear, Im not denying the game has glaring flaws. My reaction was more directed towards the OP who is outright ignoring every single thing people point out as improvement over DA:O just because he hates DA2 (which is why I threw "irrational" in there). That's complete BS if you start a topic asking people what features they'd like to see return to DA:I.

Or maybe I'm just reading too much into it... 

To me, even the things that sounded well on paper were botched in game. Take Rivalry, I think it stood for "don´t agree with you but respect you", but in game I just ended up thinking why the hell is that guy still following me around, as there was no real reason. And it´s sad, some relationships in Origins screamed for this option (mostly Morrigan and Sten).

[The Six Path of Pain]

Only real thing I liked about DA2 was that your companion more or less stayed around the same level as you, albeit a few XP points behind, but overall the same. Other then that, NO! I really want it closer in relation to Origins.

[Aaleel]

Are we talking about DA2 elements as they were in the actual game or DA2 how they should have or could have been. Because honestly, most of the things they tried in DA2 were executed horribly to say the least.

Since all I have to go off is how things actually were executed in the game, I don't want to see hardly anything carried over.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

As much as I might complain about the voiced protagonist or the paraphrases or the cinematic presentation, the Rock Wraith and Corypheus are everything that's wrong with modern games.

They were gimmicky.  They didn't fit within the game world.  They existed purely as a spectacle, rather than part of a coherent roleplaying experience.

I don't even like the concept of boss battles as a design element, but these were the worst of the lot.

[Nerevar-as]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

The frakking RW and Cory? One takes about 20 minutes to kill, and thanks to the camera work it usually knocks down all the party in one of its teleports. Thankfully I found a specific 2 mages build that reduced the fight on NM to Easy, but it´s not something you know in advance to finding it.

I gave up on Cory after the nth time 3/4 of my group were killed because of the worst pathfinding I can remember.

And then there´s Arishok´s so called duel, and Meredith´s anime antics.

To me, if a fight against an enemy takes longer than 5 minutes something´s gone wrong, and DA2 took far more time.

[lv12medic]

I want exactly 33.385479113% of DA2 into DA:I. With that said, I also want 31.7179573114% of DA:O in DA:I. I don't care how they fill this quota just as long a they fill it.

[Paul E Dangerously]

What I want out of DA2? Hm.

+ Mage animations are less pew-pew than in DAO.
+ Warrior animations are okay, but a bit -too- fast.
+ Better looking light armor
+ Faction outfits. It was a little odd how EVERYONE knew you were the Grey Warden, even when you have no real signs to mark you as such.

- Everything being so class-oriented. You will find the Act 1 class-specific armor piece at Point X, then another class-specific armor piece at point Y, and so on. I prefer things being stat-based other than class-based - if I want my mage to wear armor and use a sword, then they should be able to if the stats let me.
- Rogue animations were way too over the top. I get that they want to make it something that isn't Warrior with Lockpicking, but having teleporting ninjas is not really the solution.

[ScarMK]

Sopa de Gato wrote...
It was a little odd how EVERYONE knew you were the Grey Warden, even when you have no real signs to mark you as such.

To be fair, according to Serjeant Kylon, they have pictures of the warden's likeness and passed them out.  I wouldn't be surprised if they also passed those out to the common folk to report them.  There's also the case of Lothering where Logain's men also had your description and asked around about it.

[Nefla]

There were things I liked about DA2 such as helmet toggle and many of the armor designs.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

As much as I might complain about the voiced protagonist or the paraphrases or the cinematic presentation, the Rock Wraith and Corypheus are everything that's wrong with modern games.

They were gimmicky.  They didn't fit within the game world.  They existed purely as a spectacle, rather than part of a coherent roleplaying experience.

I don't even like the concept of boss battles as a design element, but these were the worst of the lot.

In my humble opinion I said those battles were fun. That is the primary reason I play games.As far as boss battles go those I had the most fun with. The High Dragon and the Arishok tie for third on the list. If I am not having fun I do care how well-designed the game. It will simply sit on my shelf.
I had fun with DA2.

[Realmzmaster]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

The frakking RW and Cory? One takes about 20 minutes to kill, and thanks to the camera work it usually knocks down all the party in one of its teleports. Thankfully I found a specific 2 mages build that reduced the fight on NM to Easy, but it´s not something you know in advance to finding it.

I gave up on Cory after the nth time 3/4 of my group were killed because of the worst pathfinding I can remember.

And then there´s Arishok´s so called duel, and Meredith´s anime antics.

To me, if a fight against an enemy takes longer than 5 minutes something´s gone wrong, and DA2 took far more time.

I play wargames both computerized and board. I am use to long battles. I am right now playing the campaign Battle of the Ardennes (Unternehmen Wacht am Rhein,  Battle of the Bulge). The American 28th Infantry Division is defending Bastonge. Twenty minutes for fight is a short amount of time.

I played the Gold Box games where a single fight could take an hour depending on the number of enemies. Cory and Rock Wraith were like a summer breeze over way to soon.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 24 août 2013 - 02:24 .

[KDD-0063]

Speaking of boss battles, I think phase mechanics is one of the most unimaginative ways to do it if not the most. (Talking about things like lightning dragon in DA:A, Cory and RW in DA2. There are many more in other games, Blizzard games are infested with those things)

Of course involving a bit is fine; for example, the most memorable boss fight for me was BG2's mod Ascension. There is a "phase change" where the boss spawns after you kill one or two of its five lieutenants, but you can deal with the boss in a lot of ways rather than fit into a completely fixed pattern.

Yes the phase 1 -> phase 2 -> ... -> phase x can be fun but it gets stale very, very quickly.

[Aaleel]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The boss battles in DA2 were more fun than DAO especially the Rock Wraith and Cory.

The frakking RW and Cory? One takes about 20 minutes to kill, and thanks to the camera work it usually knocks down all the party in one of its teleports. Thankfully I found a specific 2 mages build that reduced the fight on NM to Easy, but it´s not something you know in advance to finding it.

I gave up on Cory after the nth time 3/4 of my group were killed because of the worst pathfinding I can remember.

And then there´s Arishok´s so called duel, and Meredith´s anime antics.

To me, if a fight against an enemy takes longer than 5 minutes something´s gone wrong, and DA2 took far more time.

The length of the fight isn't the thing for me, if the fight is interesting or fun I don't mind.  But these two got boring after a few rotations of boss goes into invincible mode, clean out random fodder, go back to boss rinse and repeat.

The Arishock fight as I was a S & S warrior was just boring, tedious, long, long and long.  Wasn't fun at all, wasn't strategic, it was just long.

Meredith I'm indifferent to.

Modifié par Aaleel, 24 août 2013 - 02:49 .