310 réponses à ce sujet

[Yrkoon]

What, you didn't enjoy sacrificing Isolde?

Sometimes instead of consequences,  great Feel-Good Rewards will do in a pinch!

Modifié par Yrkoon, 21 août 2013 - 09:20 .

[David7204]

The player character being competent is not a Get-out-of-Jail-Free card.

Some of the worst moments in games are where I've been forced with a supposedly awful choice that could have and should have been easily solveable if my supposedly powerful, persuasive, capable player character were a little more competent. Or could bring up a point that the game doesn't allow. Or ask questions to clarify an issue that needs to be clarified. Thankfully, Mass Effect did an outstanding job steering clear of that. Not so sure about Dragon Age.

Modifié par David7204, 21 août 2013 - 09:24 .

[Kidd]

Didn't Gaider once say that if there was one thing he would change if he could go back, it was to change the everybody wins-scenario at Redcliffe? Don't quote me on that however, but if somebody has an idea if I'm referring to something real, then please share and prove I'm not dreaming =)

[RenegadeXV]

Yeah, I kind of agree with you. I'd have preferred having less 'optimal' outcomes, for example, if the Dalish Elves/Werewolf situation had no third option.

Of course, I don't want every decision being between the lesser of two evils. I liked how ME3 handled the Geth/Quarian situation, where additional work was required to achieve peace (Even if my 'canon' playthough sides with the Geth).

[Savber100]

You mean like the Mass Effect 3 ending? Where the players get screwed either way?

[Zack_Nero]

I agree, I would also like to get some kind of consequence to a deeper level, even if it is the right choice.

[wright1978]

I don't have issue with circle path being the best path. However imo it either needed a higher hurdle such as the da2 companion restricted moments(having the circle mage wynne in your party already to suggest it) or some sort of negative consequence even if it was no where near as severe as the other paths.

[Taleroth]

A good choice is about predictable tradeoffs. A particularly interesting choice is one that makes you figure out what you're willing to trade. The mages are a bit of a shame in that situation, as it invalidates the trade of all other choices.

[Il Divo]

David7204 wrote...

The player character being competent is not a Get-out-of-Jail-Free card.

There's nothing competent about leaving a powerful demon capable of mind control on its own while the player makes a run to the Circle Tower and dealing with all the assorted problems there.

That's not competency, that's stupidity. Bioware just didn't program a suitable consequence for the player's choice. It was in fact a get out of jail free card.

[Wulfram]

I think you need to be careful. It's a shame to lose a good dilemma to an easy way out, but it's also annoying to have an obvious 3rd option ignored because the writers wanted there to be a "touch choice". Though of course you should also avoid the golden mean fallacy - the compromise doesn't have to be the best option, necessarily.

I'd also say I'd prefer it if my game isn't an endless succession of Pyrrhic victories, because the writers are determined to add a downside to every positive. Sometimes you should just plain win and feel good about yourself. No second guessing, no "at what cost", just a win. And then after that you can hit the player in the gut, it'll hurt more.

[Kidd]

wright1978 wrote...

I don't have issue with circle path being the best path. However imo it either needed a higher hurdle such as the da2 companion restricted moments(having the circle mage wynne in your party already to suggest it) or some sort of negative consequence even if it was no where near as severe as the other paths.

The village should've been sacked, with Isolde and Connor both alive at the end, imho.

[Fast Jimmy]

David7204 wrote...

The player character being competent is not a Get-out-of-Jail-Free card.

Some of the worst moments in games are where I've been forced with a supposedly awful choice that could have and should have been easily solveable if my supposedly powerful, persuasive, capable player character were a little more competent. Or could bring up a point that the game doesn't allow. Or ask questions to clarify an issue that needs to be clarified. Thankfully, Mass Effect did an outstanding job steering clear of that. Not so sure about Dragon Age.

You have zero idea what you are talking about. You know nothing of the choice that is being discussed. 

It is not at all a competent choice to leave a castle occupied by a possessed Mage child who had already slaughtered all the castle residents and most of the town (until your character arrived to save them) to his/its own devices while you spend weeks venturing to the nearest Circle, complete its long quest (shorter in time only to the Deep Roads section), return back with the help needed and expect nothing bad to happen. After weeks of terrorizing and killing, the demon's entire killing spree is suspended for over a month and then picked back up again as if nothing had happened. That is the anti-thesis of competent choice.

Please stop talking about Dragon Ave games as if you'be played them. Your experience with ME games gives you about as much credence on the subject as your experience with Pac-Man.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Correct me If I'm wrong but if you support the templars then you don't get to save Connor and Isolde.

[Dave of Canada]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Didn't Gaider once say that if there was one thing he would change if he could go back, it was to change the everybody wins-scenario at Redcliffe? Don't quote me on that however, but if somebody has an idea if I'm referring to something real, then please share and prove I'm not dreaming =)

Yes. I was actually pleased he regretted it, I disliked very much the mage tower leading to happy-go-lucky hugs and kisses. Burn down the village.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 août 2013 - 09:36 .

[Zanallen]

Foshizzlin wrote...

I'm extremely surprised to say that I agree with this. I don't think providing options with positive endings = get out of jail free card. The Connor decision allowed you to bring in outside Mage help, like you'd be able to realistically. You still had plenty of other options, but in the end, at least they didn't provide a convenient excuse for why the Mages couldn't help; actually, they did, then you can go save them, fix the issue, and bring Mage help back. It was a fairly interesting thing.

The problem is that the whole situation at Redcliffe just paused while you went and got the mages. You spend a few more minutes of your time and get the perfect ending. There is absolutely no reason to choose any other option unless you already sided with the templars.

[David7204]

Also, having a 'tough' choice built on decent characters suddenly turning into jerks or idiots is something I utterly despise. Skyrim is the prime example of this. The big choice halfway through game just accomplished nothing but making me dislike the only friendly characters in the main storyline for being so utterly petty. And I just stopped caring. Any merit of the story vanished because I put down the controller and said to myself "I don't care what happens to these people."

House in New Vegas in another example. He seems like a decent guy worth siding with until he demands you murder the entire Brotherhood for reasons that just don't hold up.

Modifié par David7204, 21 août 2013 - 09:44 .

[Taleroth]

David7204 wrote...

The player character being competent is not a Get-out-of-Jail-Free card.

Some of the worst moments in games are where I've been forced with a supposedly awful choice that could have and should have been easily solveable if my supposedly powerful, persuasive, capable player character were a little more competent. Or could bring up a point that the game doesn't allow. Or ask questions to clarify an issue that needs to be clarified. Thankfully, Mass Effect did an outstanding job steering clear of that. Not so sure about Dragon Age.

Yes and no. Forced dilemmas definitely have this risk. But, for instance, the Conner situation wasn't resolved by spectacular competence. It was resolved by a tradeoff that went unrealized. Taking two days to go get the mages could have lead to consequences.

But, like I said, trying for it can be risky. Sometimes they do simply end putting you in situations that make you hate the options they  don't let you try. Dragon Age 2 has this problem near the end. So does Mass Effect 3.

[Il Divo]

Zanallen wrote...

Foshizzlin wrote...

I'm extremely surprised to say that I agree with this. I don't think providing options with positive endings = get out of jail free card. The Connor decision allowed you to bring in outside Mage help, like you'd be able to realistically. You still had plenty of other options, but in the end, at least they didn't provide a convenient excuse for why the Mages couldn't help; actually, they did, then you can go save them, fix the issue, and bring Mage help back. It was a fairly interesting thing.

The problem is that the whole situation at Redcliffe just paused while you went and got the mages. You spend a few more minutes of your time and get the perfect ending. There is absolutely no reason to choose any other option unless you already sided with the templars.

I think I would at least prefer it if the best case scenario required some sort of extra effort to reach its conclusion (Ex: Saving Malik in Deus Ex: Human Revolution). DA:O didn't even go that far. Any player has to get through the Circle Tower anyway.

[David7204]

Where does ME 3 have this problem?

[Taleroth]

David7204 wrote...

Where does ME 3 have this problem?

Most notably the final three choices. If Shepard were more competent, he would have had a plan to use the crucible. If he were more competent, he would have had an army of Quarian and/or Geth techs fly to aid in arming the thing. If he were more competent, he could have told the starchild to sit on it and do things best not mentioned in polite company.

No, he went in, by himself, and just hoped for the best.

Modifié par Taleroth, 21 août 2013 - 09:45 .

[Neon Rising Winter]

krul2k wrote...

Would it work that once you sort of get in to the "main theater" map everything on the map has all options/choices open to them but the longer you stay away from one the less choice in outcome you can have? or is that 2 messed up

I rather like that idea. At the start of the game all options are open, and you have plenty of time to achieve varied results, but as you complete ths story, the situation becomes more set and the options available for the remaining plot reduce. Which could be interesting in a game where it was very open what order you complete things in.

The sadist in me says, and factor in all your travelling time. Forget the towers of hanoi, let's have a loosened up version of the travelling salesman problem chugging along throughout the whole game.