5 réponses à ce sujet

[Rann]

A couple of years ago, I made a post which (alas) got little feedback, likely due to it being somewhat ponderous (like this post ), but the issue I brought up is something that I've been thinking about again recently while I've been reading about DA:I.  To recap that earlier post: it was about my recollection of an article in Dragon magazine back in the 80's about the ecosystem of dungeons in D&D, the point of which was that DMs should strive to make encounters make sense in context.  For example -- why are the monsters working together?  What, exactly, do these enormous monsters eat when adventurers aren't available?  And so on.

What got me thinking about the ecosystem again was a replay I've been doing of DA:O, DA:A, DA2, and all of the DLCs, which I'm setting up as my "official" save for DA:I to import.  My earlier post was on the order of "What do the spiders in Sundermount actually eat?  Where do all of these ninja-like bad guys come from, who clearly seem to make up a majority of the population -- how does that work in the context of an otherwise (relatively) stable urban population?"  and so on.

I have another spin on the ecosystem problem, which is "How come everyone is so powerful?" and it's something I think is worth pondering as DA:I is under development.  The thing that caught my attention this time was (and I apologize for the spoiler) Duke Prosper.  There's no obvious reason why he should be so tough, even discounting his pet.  He's a noble, he probably can't disappear for months at a time to stay in shape as an adventurer -- or if he does, then why isn't this remarked upon?  In the "ecosystem" of the nobility, this toughness doesn't make sense, and there are plenty of other examples where a noble is "tough" simply by the meta-reason of being the end boss.  (There are plenty of other examples, and even Hawke isn't immune -- he/she takes three-year breaks between adventuring sprees, with neither an increase in level nor a decrease in ability due to extended vacations.  I'm jealous, as I lose muscle tone just by skipping the gym for a couple of weeks...)

In a similar vein, even the thugs that Hawke or the Grey Warden (I will simply say "The Hero" from now on) end up fighting get tougher and tougher as Hawke levels up -- more health, better armor, etc.  So, where are these thugs earlier in the game? And how come people so powerful as any one of these thugs isn't in some major personality in the city, given their implied abilities?

Of course, I know that the metapoint is that The Hero needs tougher opponents to fight -- and of course, The Hero himself is ridiculously powerful beyond the baseline from which he/she started.  I "get" that part of the metaphor, but I can't completely suspend disbelief on that because it's self-contradictory (for example, an Act 3 grunt would effectively be borderline-equivalent to a boss, or at least a higher-level elite, in Act 1).  The Hero has to do amazing and, more importantly, *unique* feats of valor to gain all of those spiffy powers, so how are these other guys leveling up?  The Hero can't truly be a standout when so many human beings are near to his level, regardless of the plot line.  (And don't get me started about The Hero's unused companions also leveling up, which from a game mechanics point is a Very Good Thing, but from a story POV makes no sense at all, unless you just assume that they are there fighting other foes alongside you, having about the same success as you, somewhere behind that rock over there...)

I humbly suggest two things for DA:I:

• Backstories for major opponents which give insight into why they are so fierce -- and even codex entries would suffice.  "Rumors abound that Duke Prosper has some deal with Desire Demons which, in exchange for incredible health..." etc, etc.  Yeah, some could be mysterious as well -- but, frankly, most nobles should be wimps, relying on champions (though perhaps that's less satisfying from a story standpoint), so anything out of the ordinary should raise an eyebrow -- particularly if they are more powerful than The Hero.
  
• Opponent *types* should change as The Hero levels up, as a default.  This happens to some degree already, but at some point it doesn't make story sense for The Hero to go bashing folks who should have long since become relatively mundane opponents.  To some extent, increasing numbers of opponents can compensate (and I don't mean ninjas falling from the sky ), but that works best as a per-encounter tuning as opposed to mission-to-mission, in my opinion.  Also, increasing numbers of opponents can also stretch believability -- where do all of those thugs come from, how can such a large number of thugs possibly protect the secret of the lair's location with all of the coming and going that that would imply, and how do they all fit in that tiny little hideout at, for example, Company Meetings ?

Of course, I know that one can also explain it away in one phrase such as "It's Varric's embellishments,"  and also I know that the game represents no form of reality anyway.  Both points are fair, and frankly even my post is a bit tongue-in-cheek as you might gather -- there's only so much that game devs and writers can do, after all.  But at any rate, my opinion is that a fiction viewed through a secondary fictional lens becomes that much harder to relate to -- it pulls you that much farther out of the wonderful state of suspended disbelief necessary just to enjoy the game.  It's similar to how the best science fiction picks exactly one important thing to change about the world, and leaves everything else unchanged as a reference frame for the reader.  I'd love to think that DA:I encounters were as much about "does this encounter make sense" as much as "does this fight have the right difficulty."

Modifié par Rann, 22 août 2013 - 02:40 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

To be honest, I think the 'It's Varric's embellishments' angle is just a convenient excuse for some of the poorer aspects of DA2 (like enemies appearing out of nowhere).

Other than that, I don't have much to add. Great post and I completely agree!

[ladyiolanthe]

I wonder whether the "no level scaling" mentioned by the devs might be an attempt to address this? We are going to run in to creatures that are too powerful for us to fight at lower levels, with the idea being that we remember where they are and can go back later when we are powerful enough to deal with them. I'm not certain that it'll apply to all potential foes, or just a few, though.

[sandalisthemaker]

Gameplay/story segregation and gameplay mechanics cover pretty much all of your points.

As far as the creatures such as the spiders you mention:
Video game "ecosystems" tend to vastly over-represent predator species to the point where said ecosystems would be invalid in real life. There are often only one or two visible prey species (typically a type of deer) with all other animals being predators for the sole purpose of giving the player more enemies to kill.
Logically, in order for the predator species to survive, there would have to be a larger number and more varieties of prey species than what is typically shown.

[David7204]

As for opponents leveling up, it kind of breaks immersion to have a bunch of super-ultra-demons or whatever wandering around and no more regular demons. Cause regular demons should be a lot more common, right?

I remember in Oblivion when generic bandits started to carry the best daedric equipment available if you reached a high level. That was kind of interesting.

Modifié par David7204, 22 août 2013 - 03:22 .

[Flamingdropbear]

On the predator / prey mismatch, my theory is given the alarmingly suicidal tenancy of most predators to attack you and fight to the death (rather than running away if injured) is due to the lack of prey and the fact they are staving and have nothing to lose.
I realise that this probably wasn't the thought behind them, but it's a decent work around. A for the waves of disposable knight ninjas, they come from refugees.
Despite coming up with reasons for these niggles I would prefer them not to happen as well