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[Star fury]

"Among apprentices of the Circle, nothing is regarded with more fear than the Harrowing. Little is known about this rite of passage, and that alone would be cause for dread. But it is well understood that only those apprentices who pass this trial are ever seen again. They return as full members of the Circle of Magi. Of those who fail, nothing is known. Perhaps they are sent away in disgrace. Perhaps they are killed on the spot. I heard one patently ridiculous rumor among the Circle at Rivain, which claimed that failed apprentices were transformed into pigs, fattened up, and served at dinner to the senior enchanters. But I could find no evidence that the Rivaini Circle ate any particular quantity of pork."

--From In Pursuit of Knowledge: The Travels of A Chantry Scholar, by Brother Genitivi. 
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"The Harrowing is a test that every mage-apprentice must go through to become a full member of the Circle of Magi. Exactly what happens during the Harrowing is kept a secret from apprentices, and apprentices not given any warning when they are to face their Harrowing. 

First, the apprentice enters the Fade through ritual use of lyrium. Once across the Veil, the subject must face and overcome a demon that wishes to possess the apprentice's body and enter the living realm. The apprentice must then navigate whatever challenges have been set up and see through whatever ruse the demon (usually one of pride or desire) puts on. The demon itself would have been summoned by Circle mages to the same part of the Fade the apprentice enters, lured by the promise of a living body waiting for it. If the apprentice succeeds in resisting the demon, he or she earns the title and trappings of a mage, becoming a full member of the Circle. The Harrowing is thus more a test of will, common sense and the ability to resist temptation than one of magical ability.

However, if the apprentice is overwhelmed by the demon (or, some say, takes too long to complete the task), he or she is killed by templars who are standing by to prevent the tragedy of an abomination. One templar (who remains unidentified to the mages present) is assigned the killing blow in advance, while the rest keep danger at bay and weakened, each ready to replace the 'designated slayer' if necessary.

Because the preliminary ritual requires a significant amount of lyrium, only the most promising apprentices are deemed worthy of attempting it. After a certain time, those who either do not show enough promise or are deemed a liability are either made Tranquil, executed, or imprisoned. Apprentices may also volunteer to be made Tranquil. Since passing the Harrowing theoretically proves that a mage is capable enough to resist possession, Chantry law forbids mages from being made Tranquil after they pass."

© Dragon Age wiki.
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I think this is a very interesting point to discuss. What are your thoughts about it. In my opinion, Harrowing is a failed attempt to make the game more dark and realistic, instead it's just stupid. It's just stupid waste of rare talent, not even mentioning moral aspects.   

Modifié par Star fury, 22 août 2013 - 11:06 .

[leaguer of one]

I think you need to go back to the topic you started discussing this in.

[snackrat]

Mages are supposed to be forbidden to being made tranquil after they pass? I think a few templars should need to hear that.
Like probably all of them.

[Uccio]

Harrowing was proven useless in DA2 where demons come to thedas directly to take mages who sneeze or hit their finger with hammer. No need for fade or to give permission to the demon. All demons need is to come in and take over at will. Just a split second disturbance and in it goes. Who needs harrowing or fade when mages whole life is constant harrowing in itself?

[Clertar]

I liked it. Maybe you didn't plat the mage origin in DAO?

[Uccio]

I did. Thats why DA2 made no sense. In Origins you had to be in the fade to make a deal or give it a option invade mages mind. So in Origins Harrowing made sense.

In DA2 it all went out of the window. Suddenly demons can come into real world to invade mages who are distracted. No deals no fade, just demons jumping right in.

And that makes no sense. All young mages would be mind invaded the moment they hit the 'magic' age. Thedas would be swarming with hobbit size abdominations.

[Evamitchelle]

They never said being in the Fade was necessary to become possessed, or do you think all the mages in Kinloch Hold were in the Fade with Uldred ? It's especially clear in the final battle against him when they show you a mage turning into an abomination simply by saying "yes" to Uldred's proposition. There are also several codex entries that report mages turning into abominations when being cornered by templars.

[Lavaeolus]

Karsciyin wrote...

Mages are supposed to be forbidden to being made tranquil after they pass? I think a few templars should need to hear that.
Like probably all of them.

Anders mentions it in Awakening. Despite having escaped 7 times, they could only keep capturing and bringing him back because they weren't allowed to Tranquilize post-Harrowing mages.

When it comes to Kirkwall, Knight-Commanders also aren't really supposed to take over cities either.

[Star fury]

Karsciyin wrote...

Mages are supposed to be forbidden to being made tranquil after they pass? I think a few templars should need to hear that.
Like probably all of them.

That didn't stop at least Kirkwall templars from "tranqulising" a mage who was a friend of Anders.

[Uccio]

Evamitchelle wrote...

They never said being in the Fade was necessary to become possessed, or do you think all the mages in Kinloch Hold were in the Fade with Uldred ? It's especially clear in the final battle against him when they show you a mage turning into an abomination simply by saying "yes" to Uldred's proposition. There are also several codex entries that report mages turning into abominations when being cornered by templars.

That's why Harrowing is useless. For any mage their entire life is just constant Harrowing. Why go to Fade when demons can come to you when you are taking a dump? For any mage reaching adulthood is initself a proof that he can keep demons out. Otherwise he would be running around as a teen age monster.

[dorianpervus]

Perhaps going into the fade and getting possessed is the most often used method of becoming possessed? So mages have a lesser risk of getting possessed by proving they cannot at least by going through the fade, hence the Harrowing? Mages are getting more and more desperate as time goes on so more rare cases of possession are becoming more frequent now (as in DA2).


That's my guess.

[Evamitchelle]

Ukki wrote...

Evamitchelle wrote...

They never said being in the Fade was necessary to become possessed, or do you think all the mages in Kinloch Hold were in the Fade with Uldred ? It's especially clear in the final battle against him when they show you a mage turning into an abomination simply by saying "yes" to Uldred's proposition. There are also several codex entries that report mages turning into abominations when being cornered by templars.

That's why Harrowing is useless. For any mage their entire life is just constant Harrowing. Why go to Fade when demons can come to you when you are taking a dump? For any mage reaching adulthood is initself a proof that he can keep demons out. Otherwise he would be running around as a teen age monster.

Obviously it's not a fool-proof method, otherwise there would never be any abominations. But they had to come up with some kind of test, so they figure that if a teenager can resist a demon after being dragged in the Fade in the middle of the night without warning or explanation it's an indication that in normal circumstances they won't get possessed. 

And you are exaggerating how easy it is to possess a mage. You don't get possessed because you had a micro-second of inattention, you get possessed when you agree to let a spirit/demon in. 

[Star fury]

Evamitchelle wrote...

Obviously it's not a fool-proof method, otherwise there would never be any abominations. But they had to come up with some kind of test, so they figure that if a teenager can resist a demon after being dragged in the Fade in the middle of the night without warning or explanation it's an indication that in normal circumstances they won't get possessed. 

And you are exaggerating how easy it is to possess a mage. You don't get possessed because you had a micro-second of inattention, you get possessed when you agree to let a spirit/demon in. 

The problem Harrowing is that it is a survival of the fittest. Some mages who with little help could resist demons, or just had a moment of weakness get possessed and killed. 

The absense of harrowing wasn't that bad for Morrigan, Bethany and mage-Hawke. Dalish mages don't have it, somehow elves are not wiped out by abominations. 

[Dave of Canada]

The Harrowing throws mages is a trial by fire, one of many which mages will experience throughout their lives and establishes the mage isn't completely useless against demons. They don't send mages off into the Fade to die, they've been training them and throw them in when they feel the student is prepared. Should the mage fail their Harrowing, they're slain before they can harm anyone else.

Having a "safer" alternative would promote lax behavior, why bother doing the Harrowing properly if you've got the safety net? The player's Harrowing--assuming all are similar--takes the player into the Fade, has them experience a demon hunting them down and fully explores the mistrust of the Fade.

Hell, it can't be too much of a problem that Harrowing can end up with a mage's death, we hear apprentices be afraid about it and senior mages have no issue with it, we don't hear anyone complain about the mass disappearances or deaths of other mages.

Those who are too afraid of the Harrowing have alternatives, tranquility is a nice and easy way for you to skip out of the Harrowing and you're even allowed to return back home to your family.

Star fury wrote...

The problem Harrowing is that it is a survival of the fittest. Some mages who with little help could resist demons, or just had a moment of weakness get possessed and killed.

And those mages deserve to be killed, they're a threat to others. They've been trained until the Circle found them fit for the Harrowing, otherwise they'd be made tranquil.

The absense of harrowing wasn't that bad for Morrigan, Bethany and mage-Hawke.

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth one-on-one, Bethany and Mage Hawke were given a Harrowing by Malcolm.

Dalish mages don't have it, somehow elves are not wiped out by abominations. 

They don't deal with a large amount of enclosed mages, they have their own ways and any abomination is dealt with by the clan or the clan is wiped out and no-one hears of it.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 22 août 2013 - 08:53 .

[Uccio]

Maybe. DA2 seems to suggest that getting a papercut is a valid reason for possession.

And still Harrowing is useless. Going to Fade is in no way more dangerous since demon can approach mage in any moment of their life. Mage can be as tired, physically wounded or mentally occupied any time of the day which makes them easy pray.

Modifié par Ukki, 22 août 2013 - 08:55 .

[Star fury]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Those who are too afraid of the Harrowing have alternatives, tranquility is a nice and easy way for you to skip out of the Harrowing and you're even allowed to return back home to your family.

Right, being emotionally castrated "is a nice and easy way".

Dave of Canada wrote...
And those mages deserve to be killed, they're a threat to others. They've been trained until the Circle found them fit for the Harrowing, otherwise they'd be made tranquil.

This is the extreme form of social Darwinism, mildly saying.

Dave of Canada wrote...

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth one-on-one, 

So?

Dave of Canada wrote...
Bethany and Mage Hawke were given a Harrowing by Malcolm.

Source?

Dave of Canada wrote...
They don't deal with a large amount of enclosed mages, they have their own ways and any abomination is dealt with by the clan or the clan is wiped out and no-one hears of it.

That is your headcanon. All we see in the game that Dalish elves are safe living with mages without Circles and Harrowing. 

[fchopin]

We played the harrowing in DAO and we found nothing difficult in it op.

DA2 did not make sense as we already know what it is to be a mage and all the double talk in DA2 is just that ‘talk that makes no sense’.
You can not lie to a person who has lived the life as he or she has had the experience and knows.

[MisterJB]

First and foremost, "unprepared" is NOT the same as "untrained". The mages are roused from their beds in a random night and sent into the Fade; this is being unprepared and the reason this is done it's because if a mage is capable of facing a demon when they're at worst, that raises the chances of them being able to repeat the feat should there be a need for it. It's like if you were given a surprise test; if you still pass despite not knowing it was coming, chances are you know the subject by heart. Makes sense, right?

But that doesn't mean mages didn't spend years learning spells and studying demonic lore. Here we can see apprentices being taught by Senior Enchanters.




And we can see here that there two whole sections of the library dedicated to mage training and the Fade. One book is even named "How to resist demonic possessions".



So, obviously, the mages are trained for their Harrowing. (The images are a bit small but if you quote this post, you should be able to read them)


What reason could there possibly be for mages to be sent without training? I daresay that, if the Chantry truly wished to kill mages, they could do so very easily. Just don't send them to the tower, kill them when young,
easy enough, right? The reason mages are spared is because magic is a valuable natural resource. Basically, mages are too useful to just be rid of. Also, remember that lyrium is bloody expensive. The Order already Tranquilises those deemed too weak to even attempt the Harrowing so, what would be the point of spending lyrium to send someone into the Fade just to die when there are much less expensive manners of accomplishing
this?
If you're not willing to believe in the goodness of the Chantry and Templars, at least believe they're not willing to spend sovereigns just to kill mages nor are they willing to destroy natural resources any more than we would burn down newly discovered oil.

Modifié par MisterJB, 22 août 2013 - 10:21 .

[Lee80]

The harrowing is just a symptom of the true problem. Mages are thought as somehow less then a "human/person". No matter how many examples there are of mages who live their whole life doing nothing but good, every time one goes over to the demon side that's all people choose to see. Never mind the fact that Templars get possessed too... Until they can gain the freedom and respect due to all human beings, things like the harrowing and worse will continue.

[TTTX]

Ukki wrote...

Harrowing was proven useless in DA2 where demons come to thedas directly to take mages who sneeze or hit their finger with hammer. No need for fade or to give permission to the demon. All demons need is to come in and take over at will. Just a split second disturbance and in it goes. Who needs harrowing or fade when mages whole life is constant harrowing in itself?

Well, the 3 act of DA2 wasn't very well written, I'm sure there is going to be a joke or two about it from Varric in the party banter about how he didn't tell everything excatly how it happened in Kirkwall.

[Lord Gremlin]

Maybe it's because writers didn't put enough effort into it, but Harrowing is indeed pretty useless. Demons differ in power, if this one wasn't powerful enough to possess this mage, the other one will.
It's not even survival of the fittest. Harrowing is like taking a random gunshot at a person and then claiming that if gunshot wasn't fatal that person can resist bullets.
It's idiotic.
If you ask me, the only reasonable way is having society ruled by mages. And when any kind of possession happens it's swiftly dealt with by powerful mages.
Anyway, anyone wanna proof they can resist bullets?

[Evamitchelle]

fchopin wrote...

We played the harrowing in DAO and we found nothing difficult in it op.

Yeah but the Warden's Harrowing is apparently "the quickest, cleanest Harrowing" Cullen has ever seen, and the Warden is clearly not just an average mage.

And the Harrowing is supposed to account for normal circumstances I think, so not like Kinloch Hold with Uldred or the Gallows with Meredith. It's true that there were a bit too many bood mages and abominations in DA2, but the Circle there is especially awful (Harrowed mages being made Tranquil against the Chantry's laws, rape/sexual assault, whippings etc.)

And I do agree that the Harrowing does not serve its purpose well (as shown by the Dalish Keepers, the Rivaini Seers and many others), but I don't see how it's a "failed attempt to make the game more dark and realistic". I think it makes perfect sense from an in-game perspective that the Chantry would try to do something like this. 

[MisterJB]

Lee80alabama wrote...

The harrowing is just a symptom of the true problem. Mages are thought as somehow less then a "human/person". No matter how many examples there are of mages who live their whole life doing nothing but good, every time one goes over to the demon side that's all people choose to see. Never mind the fact that Templars get possessed too... Until they can gain the freedom and respect due to all human beings, things like the harrowing and worse will continue.

"The freedom due to all human beings" is an interesting concept. Let's take Western Civilization into account. In this form of society, we willingly allow our freedoms to be limited so society can exist. It's why laws that say what we can do and when we can do it exist.
Now, do these laws apply only to those who have harmed others? No, these laws apply to all citizens, from the most hardened criminal to the most innocent child. Why is that?
It is because humans have the possibility of being dangerous. The law is applied to all on the basis of what we can do rather than what we have done in the past. Without these limitations upon our freedoms, society could not exist, we would simply leave in a dog-eat-dog world. Even more, anyway.

Now, you can say "But those laws are applied equaly." And that's true but that is because on our world, all human beings are equal; through nature, if not through society. We all have the same basic abilities, we all have arms with which to wield weapons. to harm others.
In Thedas, this is not true. In Thedas, there is a class of people capable of killing others with a thought, of conjuring firestorms on a whim, etc and who are always subject to the whisperings of demons.
Do these people not have a greater responsability to society than those incapable of removing one's free will with a drop of blood? Does it seem fair to you to apply equal restrictions to those who are not equal?

Oh and the only cases of templars becoming possessed was when mages forced the demon into their bodies. Therefore, the mages is still at the root of the problem.

[Star fury]

Lee80alabama wrote...

The harrowing is just a symptom of the true problem. Mages are thought as somehow less then a "human/person". No matter how many examples there are of mages who live their whole life doing nothing but good, every time one goes over to the demon side that's all people choose to see. Never mind the fact that Templars get possessed too... Until they can gain the freedom and respect due to all human beings, things like the harrowing and worse will continue.

Uhm, don't think Thedas has a concept of equal rights yet. Humans have arictocracy, dwarves have castes which is even worse. Mages being opressed makes sense, even if you don't include blood magic, abominations, Tevinter into equation.