123 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

The problem with the Harrowing is that the rewards are minimal and the alternative is horrific.

If taking the Harrowing got you real freedoms and not taking it just meant that you didn't get those freedoms, rather than that you were Tranquilled, it wouldn't be so unreasonable.

[Evamitchelle]

MisterJB wrote...

Lee80alabama wrote...

The harrowing is just a symptom of the true problem. Mages are thought as somehow less then a "human/person". No matter how many examples there are of mages who live their whole life doing nothing but good, every time one goes over to the demon side that's all people choose to see. Never mind the fact that Templars get possessed too... Until they can gain the freedom and respect due to all human beings, things like the harrowing and worse will continue.

"The freedom due to all human beings" is an interesting concept. Let's take Western Civilization into account. In this form of society, we willingly allow our freedoms to be limited so society can exist. It's why laws that say what we can do and when we can do it exist.
Now, do these laws apply only to those who have harmed others? No, these laws apply to all citizens, from the most hardened criminal to the most innocent child. Why is that?
It is because humans have the possibility of being dangerous. The law is applied to all on the basis of what we can do rather than what we have done in the past. Without these limitations upon our freedoms, society could not exist, we would simply leave in a dog-eat-dog world. Even more, anyway.

Now, you can say "But those laws are applied equaly." And that's true but that is because on our world, all human beings are equal; through nature, if not through society. We all have the same basic abilities, we all have arms with which to wield weapons. to harm others.
In Thedas, this is not true. In Thedas, there is a class of people capable of killing others with a thought, of conjuring firestorms on a whim, etc and who are always subject to the whisperings of demons.
Do these people not have a greater responsability to society than those incapable of removing one's free will with a drop of blood? Does it seem fair to you to apply equal restrictions to those who are not equal?

Oh and the only cases of templars becoming possessed was when mages forced the demon into their bodies. Therefore, the mages is still at the root of the problem.

Mages are not always necessary for regular people to become possessed : i.e. Lady Harriman in the Exiled Prince DLC, who was controlled/possessed by a Desire Demon without any mage intervention. 

Besides, there are plenty of groups in Thedas who do not lock up their mages and are not overwhelmed by abominations or mind-controlled by blood magic. The Keepers of the Dalish mostly seem to do okay (and when they don't Merrill says that they are hunted and killed by their own clans), the Seers in Rivain allow themselves to be possessed and they were doing fine until the Chantry killed them all. 

[Star fury]

Lord Gremlin wrote...

Maybe it's because writers didn't put enough effort into it, but Harrowing is indeed pretty useless. Demons differ in power, if this one wasn't powerful enough to possess this mage, the other one will.
It's not even survival of the fittest. Harrowing is like taking a random gunshot at a person and then claiming that if gunshot wasn't fatal that person can resist bullets.
It's idiotic.

Agreed, it's also a matter of luck too. If you encounter a good spirit who will help you against demons. Or you escape attention of powerful demons like you wrote.

Lord Gremlin wrote...
If you ask me, the only reasonable way is having society ruled by mages. And when any kind of possession happens it's swiftly dealt with by powerful mages.
Anyway, anyone wanna proof they can resist bullets?

Tevinter Imperium is an example of society ruled by mages, very bad example. 

[MisterJB]

Evamitchelle wrote...
Mages are not always necessary for regular people to become possessed : i.e. Lady Harriman in the Exiled Prince DLC, who was controlled/possessed by a Desire Demon without any mage intervention. 

Controlled is not the same as possessed. Normal people can be mind controlled by demons without the intervention of mages, true, but they can't be possessed.

Besides, there are plenty of groups in Thedas who do not lock up their mages and are not overwhelmed by abominations or mind-controlled by blood magic. The Keepers of the Dalish mostly seem to do okay (and when they don't Merrill says that they are hunted and killed by their own clans), the Seers in Rivain allow themselves to be possessed and they were doing fine until the Chantry killed them all. 

The Dalish are a special case given their lower numbers and the fact the Keeper spends years training only one student which should allow for a deeper training but it's just not applicable in the Circles where hundreds of mages live.
I would hesitate before claiming the mages of a nation we've met a grand total of two representatives are "doing fine". We certainly don't know the number of magical-related casualties in Rivain.

What we do know is that, in these two societies where mages are free, they are also the rulers. Tevinter has the Magisters, the Dalish have their Keeper and Rivain has the Seers.
World of Thedas page 80 "All decisions involving the welfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic."

The dangers of magic rest not solely in the danger of abominations but in the simple fact of mages outpacing normals and becoming an higher strata of society. Tevinter would still be an horrible place for non-mages to live even if all demons were to die.

[Wulfram]

It's not like the non-mage ruled nations of Thedas aren't pretty rubbish places to live if you're not part of the ruling elite. I mean, Fereldan is maybe the best, but still.

And it's not like the circle system can be said to be successfully keeping people safe from magic considering the chantry going boom and those giant holes in the sky.

[Evamitchelle]

MisterJB wrote...

The Dalish are a special case given their lower numbers and the fact the Keeper spends years training only one student which should allow for a deeper training but it's just not applicable in the Circles where hundreds of mages live.

The Keeper trains a First for years, but that doesn't mean that there are only ever 2 mages in any given clan. Merrill was "transferred" to the Sabrae clan because they didn't have any magical children while the Alerion clan had 3. Also in Zathrian's clan Lanaya mentions having to compete for the position of First. So yes, smaller groups of mages is good, which is another reason why the Circles are a bad idea.

MisterJB wrote...
I would hesitate before claiming the mages of a nation we've met a grand total of two representatives are "doing fine". We certainly don't know the number of magical-related casualties in Rivain. What we do know is that, in these two societies where mages are free, they are also the rulers. Tevinter has the Magisters, the Dalish have their Keeper and Rivain has the Seers.
World of Thedas page 80 "All decisions involving the welfare of most Rivaini communities rest solely with the eldest women. The most senior of these women are called seers, who freely practice magic."

The dangers of magic rest not solely in the danger of abominations but in the simple fact of mages outpacing normals and becoming an higher strata of society. Tevinter would still be an horrible place for non-mages to live even if all demons were to die.

When I say fine I don't necessarily mean no one ever dies, I rather mean that it's not like in Tevinter where everyone's who's not a mage is a 2nd class citizen and there aren't abominations 24/7 (unlike Kirkwall apparently). The Chasinds also have shamans, and aren't all under the thrall of demons and blood mages. All I'm saying is that putting hundreds of mages together in Circles where they are watched 24/7 by templars and routinely suffer abuse is probably one of the worst ways to handle the dangers of magic. 

(Also the Wiki says that Lady Harriman was a mage and I'm confused now). 

Modifié par Evamitchelle, 22 août 2013 - 11:34 .

[In Exile]

Wulfram wrote...

The problem with the Harrowing is that the rewards are minimal and the alternative is horrific.

If taking the Harrowing got you real freedoms and not taking it just meant that you didn't get those freedoms, rather than that you were Tranquilled, it wouldn't be so unreasonable.

But the Harrowing isn't mean to be training. It's mean to be the equivalent of a culling. Some mages are considered enough of a threat/problem that they're just made tranquil. The remainder get thrown in with a demon and, if they're not capable of resisting that demon, they get killed on the spot. 

In theory, I think, it's meant to be an easy way for the Chantry to get rid of mages that they see as most likely to get possessed at their first encounter with  a demon. 

Edit: All of this is morally horrible, of course, but the reality of the idea of a Harrowing isn't to teach mages about demons. Because the point of the Circle isn't really to teach mages. 

Modifié par In Exile, 22 août 2013 - 11:39 .

[Ozzy]

I'm curious about the Mage Warden's Harrowing from DAO actually. The Pride Demon seemed to be genuinely testing The Warden as if he had been set a task. There was no real malice to him. Had The Mages struck a deal with certain demons in order for the testing?

[MisterJB]

Evamitchelle wrote...
The Keeper trains a First for years, but that doesn't mean that there are only ever 2 mages in any given clan. Merrill was "transferred" to the Sabrae clan because they didn't have any magical children while the Alerion clan had 3. Also in Zathrian's clan Lanaya mentions having to compete for the position of First. So yes, smaller groups of mages is good, which is another reason why the Circles are a bad idea.

The only reason dalish elven man are so low in number is because there are very few dalish elves in the first place. This is not an option for human Circles.

When I say fine I don't necessarily mean no one ever dies, I rather mean that it's not like in Tevinter where everyone's who's not a mage is a 2nd class citizen and there aren't abominations 24/7 (unlike Kirkwall apparently). The Chasinds also have shamans, and aren't all under the thrall of demons and blood mages. All I'm saying is that putting hundreds of mages together in Circles where they are watched 24/7 by templars and routinely suffer abuse is probably one of the worst ways to handle the dangers of magic.

The abuses; which are not routine; are something that must be dealt with, certainly, but keeping mages under the constant supervision of normals specifically trained to combat magic  in a place where abominations and blood mages have no acess to victims and where the templar response is two minutes away given the fact they're just down the corridor strikes me as the best solution.

(Also the Wiki says that Lady Harriman was a mage and I'm confused now). 

According to her daughter, the demon made her a mage.
Weird.

[In Exile]

AstusOz wrote...

I'm curious about the Mage Warden's Harrowing from DAO actually. The Pride Demon seemed to be genuinely testing The Warden as if he had been set a task. There was no real malice to him. Had The Mages struck a deal with certain demons in order for the testing?

The Pride demon isn't part of your Harrowing. DA:O had a lot of cut features. One of them was going to be that each origin gave us a personal nemesis that would feature as part of the game and then eventually contract into the main story. You see elements of that in the HN origin with Howe, for example.

My guess was that the Pride demon would have somehow tied into the Circle takeover and would have hounded you as a mage to try and take you over. 

[Star fury]

MisterJB wrote...
The Dalish are a special case given their lower numbers and the fact the Keeper spends years training only one student which should allow for a deeper training but it's just not applicable in the Circles where hundreds of mages live.

It's only your assumption that the Dalish elves have only two mages per clan. We don't know exactly how many mages elves have. If "one mage can destroy a city", why the Dalish elves are still alive without Circles and Harrowing?

MisterJB wrote...
What we do know is that, in these two societies where mages are free, they are also the rulers. Tevinter has the Magisters, the Dalish have their Keeper and Rivain has the Seers.

 You say that like it's a bad thing.   

[TheKomandorShepard]

Star fury wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The Dalish are a special case given their lower numbers and the fact the Keeper spends years training only one student which should allow for a deeper training but it's just not applicable in the Circles where hundreds of mages live.

It's only your assumption that the Dalish elves have only two mages per clan. We don't know exactly how many mages elves have. If "one mage can destroy a city", why the Dalish elves are still alive without Circles and Harrowing?

In zathrian clan are at least 3 mages
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lanaya
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elora

[Evamitchelle]

MisterJB wrote...

When I say fine I don't necessarily mean no one ever dies, I rather mean that it's not like in Tevinter where everyone's who's not a mage is a 2nd class citizen and there aren't abominations 24/7 (unlike Kirkwall apparently). The Chasinds also have shamans, and aren't all under the thrall of demons and blood mages. All I'm saying is that putting hundreds of mages together in Circles where they are watched 24/7 by templars and routinely suffer abuse is probably one of the worst ways to handle the dangers of magic.
The abuses; which are not routine; are something that must be dealt with, certainly, but keeping mages under the constant supervision of normals specifically trained to combat magic  in a place where abominations and blood mages have no acess to victims and where the templar response is two minutes away given the fact they're just down the corridor strikes me as the best solution.

(Also the Wiki says that Lady Harriman was a mage and I'm confused now). 

According to her daughter, the demon made her a mage.
Weird.

I'd say the abuses really are routine in most Circles. Some are worse than others (Kirkwall vs Ferelden), but all of them have not so good things happening in them. For one thing all children are taken away from their mage parents as soon as they are born (Wynne's son), mages are forcibly taken away from their families, solitary confinement as a punishment, not being allowed outside, being watched 24/7 etc. The list goes on.

Also I find it very telling when you say "in a place where abominations and blood mages have no access to victims". What about all the other mages who are not possessed or blood mages and have never done anything wrong ? What about all the kids ? Are they not victims too just because they have magic ?

Modifié par Evamitchelle, 22 août 2013 - 12:02 .

[Star fury]

MisterJB wrote...
The abuses; which are not routine; are something that must be dealt with, certainly, but keeping mages under the constant supervision of normals specifically trained to combat magic  in a place where abominations and blood mages have no acess to victims and where the templar response is two minutes away given the fact they're just down the corridor strikes me as the best solution.

Kirkwall templars dissapprove -100. Even Ferelden templars disobeyed direct order of their king and tried to get Anders. So no, all rebelling Circles in Thedas show that it is not " the best solution". 

Modifié par Star fury, 22 août 2013 - 12:34 .

[Star fury]

TheKomandorShepard wrote...

In zathrian clan are at least 3 mages
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lanaya
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Elora

We will be told that Elora is an exception.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

AstusOz wrote...

I'm curious about the Mage Warden's Harrowing from DAO actually. The Pride Demon seemed to be genuinely testing The Warden as if he had been set a task. There was no real malice to him. Had The Mages struck a deal with certain demons in order for the testing?

The Pride demon isn't part of your Harrowing. DA:O had a lot of cut features. One of them was going to be that each origin gave us a personal nemesis that would feature as part of the game and then eventually contract into the main story. You see elements of that in the HN origin with Howe, for example.

My guess was that the Pride demon would have somehow tied into the Circle takeover and would have hounded you as a mage to try and take you over. 

I alwasy felt that the Pride Demon that possessed Uldred being the demon you talked with would have been a cool touch. A line like "Don't you remember me? You promised me you would get me out of the Fade... well here I am."

Similarly, I think they could have done something with the Tevinter slavers in Denerim so that it would have tied to the Landsmeet section, just like Howe did. 

I like the idea of an Origin-specific nemesis. That would have been a blast to play.

[Fast Jimmy]

Star fury wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The abuses; which are not routine; are something that must be dealt with, certainly, but keeping mages under the constant supervision of normals specifically trained to combat magic  in a place where abominations and blood mages have no acess to victims and where the templar response is two minutes away given the fact they're just down the corridor strikes me as the best solution.

Kirkwall templars dissapprove -100. Even Ferelden templars disobeyed direct order of their king and tried to get Anders. So no, all rebeling Circles in Thedas show that it is not " the best solution". 

Yet these rebelling Circles have not shown one ounce of a better system.

I'd very much like to see in DA:I the Mage side have serious problems with Abominations popping up in their ranks and hurting them in battle. Maybe even being forced to engage in tactics to control their forces that make the Templars look tame.

THAT would be an interesting development. Everyone who talks about mage freedom seems to think that with freedom comes an instant removal of the Abomination problem. Yet it is quite possible it could only seriously exacerbate it.

[Fast Jimmy]

krul2k wrote...

god i tried sooo hard to get possessed its embarrassing to own up to it lol

LOL I think that is a cool option, but could have only been a non-standard Game Over screen or something. 

As fun as it sounds, the idea that you play a secretly possessed abomination the entire story of DA:O would be incredibly difficult to explain, especially in the numerous romps to the Fade in the game which would have likely revealed your demonic self.

[phantomrachie]

 My main issue with the Harrowing is this: - Mages go through it because they are seen as dangerous and the Harrowing weeds out the weak NOT because the Templars in general care for or respect  Mages and the Harrowing is a test a Mage needs to pass to become a full member of the circle. I think that is an important distinction. 

Mages are told they have to pass the Harrowing, if they don’t pass they are killed, if they don’t take it they are made tranquil or if the Templars don’t think you can pass it you are made tranquil. Think of the pressure that puts these young apprentices under coupled with the fact that they are told their magic is a curse; it’s no wonder some Mages simply volunteer to be made tranquil.

I’m not saying that testing a young Mage is a bad idea but I think that the environment they are taught in could be changed significantly and there would be less pressure and more would pass.Think of what a Mage could accomplish if they were taught in an environment where they aren’t feared or told they are a curse  - where they get words of encouragement not words of warning. I know some Enchanters do this but it doesn’t out way the mostly negative affect the Templars presences has on Mages.

Dalish Keepers, Rivaini Seers and Chasind Shaman are all important parts of their community and they seem to be less prone to turning into abominations then Circle Mages. Seers even let sprits possess them and they seem to be fine. While all three of these traditions may have their own version of the Harrowing, there is no indication that they do.

The root issue here is why do Circle Mages seem to be so prone to possession? And I think it is all down to how society views them.

Keepers, Seers and Shaman are important to their societies and they are treated with respect not fear.  Most of the Circle Mages that we’ve seen possessed became possessed because it was there only way to survive being attacked or hunted by Templars. In DA:O Mages turned to Blood Magic to try and escape the oppression of the Templars.

I’m not excusing these actions but they are understandable.

The Harrowing is a symptom of a society who in trying to deal with dangerous Mages has only increased the likelihood of Mages becoming abominations. 

[TTTX]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet these rebelling Circles have not shown one ounce of a better system.

I'd very much like to see in DA:I the Mage side have serious problems with Abominations popping up in their ranks and hurting them in battle. Maybe even being forced to engage in tactics to control their forces that make the Templars look tame.

THAT would be an interesting development. Everyone who talks about mage freedom seems to think that with freedom comes an instant removal of the Abomination problem. Yet it is quite possible it could only seriously exacerbate it.

Well to be fair, the circles only rebelled after Lambert attacked them for no reason and it was only one vote it got decided that they rebelled.

I don't think the Templars would be so much better wither since they don't have access to their usual lyrium supply since that is controled by the Chantry. That's basically drug attics without their drugs a dangerous combanation.

But we'll find out when know more about the story and what they various orginations are doing and how they are doing at the time the Veil is torn asunder.

[Fast Jimmy]

phantomrachie wrote...

 My main issue with the Harrowing is this: - Mages go through it because they are seen as dangerous and the Harrowing weeds out the weak NOT because the Templars in general care for or respect  Mages and the Harrowing is a test a Mage needs to pass to become a full member of the circle. I think that is an important distinction. 

Mages are told they have to pass the Harrowing, if they don’t pass they are killed, if they don’t take it they are made tranquil or if the Templars don’t think you can pass it you are made tranquil. Think of the pressure that puts these young apprentices under coupled with the fact that they are told their magic is a curse; it’s no wonder some Mages simply volunteer to be made tranquil.

I’m not saying that testing a young Mage is a bad idea but I think that the environment they are taught in could be changed significantly and there would be less pressure and more would pass.Think of what a Mage could accomplish if they were taught in an environment where they aren’t feared or told they are a curse  - where they get words of encouragement not words of warning. I know some Enchanters do this but it doesn’t out way the mostly negative affect the Templars presences has on Mages.

Dalish Keepers, Rivaini Seers and Chasind Shaman are all important parts of their community and they seem to be less prone to turning into abominations then Circle Mages. Seers even let sprits possess them and they seem to be fine. While all three of these traditions may have their own version of the Harrowing, there is no indication that they do.

The root issue here is why do Circle Mages seem to be so prone to possession? And I think it is all down to how society views them.

Keepers, Seers and Shaman are important to their societies and they are treated with respect not fear.  Most of the Circle Mages that we’ve seen possessed became possessed because it was there only way to survive being attacked or hunted by Templars. In DA:O Mages turned to Blood Magic to try and escape the oppression of the Templars.

I’m not excusing these actions but they are understandable.

The Harrowing is a symptom of a society who in trying to deal with dangerous Mages has only increased the likelihood of Mages becoming abominations. 

This all may be very true... but the examples you gave of the Keepers or the Seers are roles with steeped traditions and methods. Giving Mages total freedom outside of any structure at all could be miles more destructive than the Circle system. Besides, the Keepr and Seers have static, dedicated Master/Apprentice roles. It is one-on-one training, which, in every field, discipline or subject, improves the likelhiood of success.

Those systems may very well completely fall apart when applied to the level of scale needed to train and teach every Mage across Thedas, which is the task the Circle and Chantry have - or, at least, had. I'm not saying I agree with the system, but I don't think it is fair to say there is a better one by giving the Keepers and Seers as examples.

[Ieldra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Star fury wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
The abuses; which are not routine; are something that must be dealt with, certainly, but keeping mages under the constant supervision of normals specifically trained to combat magic  in a place where abominations and blood mages have no acess to victims and where the templar response is two minutes away given the fact they're just down the corridor strikes me as the best solution.

Kirkwall templars dissapprove -100. Even Ferelden templars disobeyed direct order of their king and tried to get Anders. So no, all rebeling Circles in Thedas show that it is not " the best solution". 

Yet these rebelling Circles have not shown one ounce of a better system.

I'd very much like to see in DA:I the Mage side have serious problems with Abominations popping up in their ranks and hurting them in battle. Maybe even being forced to engage in tactics to control their forces that make the Templars look tame.

THAT would be an interesting development. Everyone who talks about mage freedom seems to think that with freedom comes an instant removal of the Abomination problem. Yet it is quite possible it could only seriously exacerbate it.

The interesting fact is that mages who have been apostates for their whole life rarely become abominations. Here's what I wrote about that in the voice of my main Warden (see my thread Of Dreams and Nightmares - A Mage Manifesto for more):

... it appears that the Circles do not prevent demonic possession so much as foster it, since every other case of possession I have witnessed or heard of has happened to Circle mages or those only recently escaped. Why would that be? Maybe it is simple and the Circle mages who attempt to escape feel that they have nothing to lose, and if they are to die, why not do everything to take as many of their oppressors’ lives with them? If so, then the blame for most cases of possession can be laid at the Circle’s feet. I suspect, though, there is a deeper cause. The teachings of the Chantry do not inspire confidence. Yet confidence, knowledge of our limits and mental strength are of primary importance when dealing with Fade spirits. Know thyself, may be the most important principle of a mage’s education. The Chantry rather teaches us to fear ourselves instead. Know the spirit world, may be the second most important principle, and knowledge of that is severely lacking. Instead, all the “knowledge” mages were taught is shrouded in religious metaphor, a sure way to obfuscate the true nature of things with a layer of prejudice. Perhaps it is no wonder that apostates are less prone to being possessed, with their knowledge shaped by experience rather than dogma. Perhaps it is no wonder that those who are treated as potential monsters in the Circles are more likely to become monsters in the end.

As for whether the Harrowing is necessary - some kind of test of a mage's control is necessary. I'd think that goes without saying, and the Harrowing certainly weeds out those stupid enough to try and bring something back from the Fade which they don't know nearly enough about. So...I don't know, it may be necessary. I contest, however, that it is in any way good to have such tests supervised by people ideologically predisposed to revile mages.

I also agree with what phantomrachie said.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 22 août 2013 - 12:46 .

[Ozzy]

In Exile wrote...

AstusOz wrote...

I'm curious about the Mage Warden's Harrowing from DAO actually. The Pride Demon seemed to be genuinely testing The Warden as if he had been set a task. There was no real malice to him. Had The Mages struck a deal with certain demons in order for the testing?

The Pride demon isn't part of your Harrowing. DA:O had a lot of cut features. One of them was going to be that each origin gave us a personal nemesis that would feature as part of the game and then eventually contract into the main story. You see elements of that in the HN origin with Howe, for example.

My guess was that the Pride demon would have somehow tied into the Circle takeover and would have hounded you as a mage to try and take you over. 

Really? That's interesting. It's fascinating just hearing about how much was cut. It was already an extensive game and you'd think that immensely long development time would have allowed them to essentially get in everything. 

Still, I never got the impression that the Pride Demon was antagonistic. I imagine it could have easily overwhelmed the Warden at that point had it any desire to but it seemed somewhat impressed by its efforts. I just got the impression that its appearance was somewhat coordinated due to the fact that it reveals itself as you're exiting your Harrowing. It would have been interesting to run into him down the track. 

[Fast Jimmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

... it appears that the Circles do not prevent demonic possession so much as foster it, since every other case of possession I have witnessed or heard of has happened to Circle mages or those only recently escaped. Why would that be? Maybe it is simple and the Circle mages who attempt to escape feel that they have nothing to lose, and if they are to die, why not do everything to take as many of their oppressors’ lives with them? If so, then the blame for most cases of possession can be laid at the Circle’s feet. I suspect, though, there is a deeper cause. The teachings of the Chantry do not inspire confidence. Yet confidence, knowledge of our limits and mental strength are of primary importance when dealing with Fade spirits. Know thyself, may be the most important principle of a mage’s education. The Chantry rather teaches us to fear ourselves instead. Know the spirit world, may be the second most important principle, and knowledge of that is severely lacking. Instead, all the “knowledge” mages were taught is shrouded in religious metaphor, a sure way to obfuscate the true nature of things with a layer of prejudice. Perhaps it is no wonder that apostates are less prone to being possessed, with their knowledge shaped by experience rather than dogma. Perhaps it is no wonder that those who are treated as potential monsters in the Circles are more likely to become monsters in the end.

That is all fair and good, but isn't worth a hill of beans right now in the DA world.

The time for changing the Chantry and the Circle is gone. That ship has now sailed. The Circles have rebelled and now have hundreds, if not thousands, of Mages to handle. How will they self-regulate? Will they just let every Mage roam free, able to do anything they want? That apostates raised outside the Chantry's influence may be more independent and self-reliant doesn't mean that hundreds of newly released Circle Mages will have that confidence or level-headedness because they are now apostates.

The Chantry still is going to teach Magic as a curse. The world will still view these Mages as mere gateways to demons and death. So nothing about the world or these Mages upbringing is going to be different, meaning they will be just as abomination prone as they were under the Templar's watch.

So... what now?