123 réponses à ce sujet

[Boycott Bioware]

Demons can appear everywhere in the mortal world, i don't see any cause for them to possess anyone just because want to see and live in mortal world

Anyway, Mages should be trained to control demons, as well as fight them. I don't see such thing in DA world.

[dragonflight288]

Qistina wrote...

Demons can appear everywhere in the mortal world, i don't see any cause for them to possess anyone just because want to see and live in mortal world

Anyway, Mages should be trained to control demons, as well as fight them. I don't see such thing in DA world.

Demons can't appear anywhere in the world. Only in areas where the veil is thin or torn...or if they're summoned by a mage. And if you think mages should be trained to control demons.....well I wish you the absolute best of luck, have a host of templars standing by, alongside highly experienced mages, and a complete lack of idiots who would make a deal.

[septembervirgin]

Evamitchelle wrote...
Then in -395 Ancient "in secret, a group of the most powerful Tevinter magisters open a gate into the Golden City, entering it physically. They are cast violently back into the physical world twisted and corrupted - the first darkspawn", which is in accordance with what the Band of Three found out. 

Considering that Corypheus is just outside Kirkwall, I'm pretty convinced Kirkwall is where the magisters entered the Golden City. 

If so, perhaps one of the earlier settlements upon where Kirkwall is built might have been structured to resemble a fanciful "Golden City".  Of course, areas cry out to be experienced, wasn't that the saying?  So people build and rebuild cities on the same sites...

[Medhia Nox]

Fantasy escalation made the Harrowing less relevant.

Pity - I found it far more compelling than the cliche that is blood magic.

[draken-heart]

I never understood the harrowing or Circles.

Mages get locked up because the Chantry brainwashes people into believing that mages are monsters that need to be locked up, and the mage if they pass a harrowing (which is dumb), they are mage, while if they fail, they die.

IF mages are pure evil, why not kill them all when they are found out? The Chantry wants them as artillery, is why.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Mages get locked up because Chantry doctrine and "conventional wisdom" is that they are too dangerous to allow to go free. Not because they are thought to be inherently evil, although many may also think that.

[Evamitchelle]

septembervirgin wrote...

Evamitchelle wrote...
Then in -395 Ancient "in secret, a group of the most powerful Tevinter magisters open a gate into the Golden City, entering it physically. They are cast violently back into the physical world twisted and corrupted - the first darkspawn", which is in accordance with what the Band of Three found out. 

Considering that Corypheus is just outside Kirkwall, I'm pretty convinced Kirkwall is where the magisters entered the Golden City. 

If so, perhaps one of the earlier settlements upon where Kirkwall is built might have been structured to resemble a fanciful "Golden City".  Of course, areas cry out to be experienced, wasn't that the saying?  So people build and rebuild cities on the same sites...

Well Emerius/Kirkwall was founded a long time ago so I don't think there'd be any major settlements there before. But the Band of Three guy did say that the city itself makes a strange pattern so who knows. Maybe getting into the Fade was always their intention and it just took them a long time to do it. 

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus was captured after the First Blight. I don't think there's too much you can read into the fact that he was imprisoned in Kirkwall 200 years after he breached the Golden (or Black) City. I can't imagine he stayed in the whole place while the entire continent was at war for that whole time.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 24 août 2013 - 04:38 .

[draken-heart]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Mages get locked up because Chantry doctrine and "conventional wisdom" is that they are too dangerous to allow to go free. Not because they are thought to be inherently evil, although many may also think that.

still brainwashing to me.

[Cainhurst Crow]

draken-heart wrote...

I never understood the harrowing or Circles.

Mages get locked up because the Chantry brainwashes people into believing that mages are monsters that need to be locked up, and the mage if they pass a harrowing (which is dumb), they are mage, while if they fail, they die.

IF mages are pure evil, why not kill them all when they are found out? The Chantry wants them as artillery, is why.

The chantry doesn't teach people mages are evil, that's propoganda terrorist like anders use to promote their extremist points of kill all the people who worship andraste and belive the teachings.

Mages are sent to the circle because their magic is extremly powerful, and they need a place where they can be trained, that doesn't risk the whole population of a villiage in doing so. When mages become abominations, they slaugher people in the dozens. Conner killed hundreds of people, meredith's sister slaughter 74 men, woman, and children. Than you have to protect them from insane individuals like wynnes parents who try to kill their kids. You can try to argue a chicken or the egg deal with that, but it's still hate that exist and probably would exist regardless of the circle teachings due to tevinter and their constant slaving ways and continuous middle finger to the whole of thedas promoting hatred for them abroad. Circles probably saved more lives, mage and human, than any other effort put forward.

Dalish elves still promote the killing of mages who fail to prove themselves, and every other country with "free" mages has a all mage controlled goverment in place.

But that's not the point. The harrowing is to make the mage apprentices know first hand what it is to be tempted by demons and need to fend them off in the fade. They are taught and trained to fend off demons already in courses, but they need to show they can handle themselves on their own. It's a test of the mages will and character, because magic is a dangerous thing, and having weak willed individuals be granted even more power than they already possess when they can, suddenly and without warning, be attacked by spirits and demons looking to take their body for a massacuring joyride. And when that happens they won't have their enchanters to come bail them out of trouble, they need to stand up for themselves and stand on their own two feet.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Dalish elves still promote the killing of mages who fail to prove themselves, and every other country with "free" mages has a all mage controlled goverment in place.

Link?

[draken-heart]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I never understood the harrowing or Circles.

Mages get locked up because the Chantry brainwashes people into believing that mages are monsters that need to be locked up, and the mage if they pass a harrowing (which is dumb), they are mage, while if they fail, they die.

IF mages are pure evil, why not kill them all when they are found out? The Chantry wants them as artillery, is why.

The chantry doesn't teach people mages are evil, that's propoganda terrorist like anders use to promote their extremist points of kill all the people who worship andraste and belive the teachings.

Mages are sent to the circle because their magic is extremly powerful, and they need a place where they can be trained, that doesn't risk the whole population of a villiage in doing so. When mages become abominations, they slaugher people in the dozens. Conner killed hundreds of people, meredith's sister slaughter 74 men, woman, and children. Than you have to protect them from insane individuals like wynnes parents who try to kill their kids. You can try to argue a chicken or the egg deal with that, but it's still hate that exist and probably would exist regardless of the circle teachings due to tevinter and their constant slaving ways and continuous middle finger to the whole of thedas promoting hatred for them abroad. Circles probably saved more lives, mage and human, than any other effort put forward.

Dalish elves still promote the killing of mages who fail to prove themselves, and every other country with "free" mages has a all mage controlled goverment in place.

But that's not the point. The harrowing is to make the mage apprentices know first hand what it is to be tempted by demons and need to fend them off in the fade. They are taught and trained to fend off demons already in courses, but they need to show they can handle themselves on their own. It's a test of the mages will and character, because magic is a dangerous thing, and having weak willed individuals be granted even more power than they already possess when they can, suddenly and without warning, be attacked by spirits and demons looking to take their body for a massacuring joyride. And when that happens they won't have their enchanters to come bail them out of trouble, they need to stand up for themselves and stand on their own two feet.

Bethany and the Dalish mages are proof that Circles are not needed to train mages right. I still say the circles are there only because the Chantry wants mages to themselves.

The Circles would not have been created if the Chantry did not preach that mages without the Circle=Tevinter reborn.

[Evamitchelle]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Corypheus was captured after the First Blight. I don't think there's too much you can read into the fact that he was imprisoned in Kirkwall 200 years after he breached the Golden (or Black) City. I can't imagine he stayed in the whole place while the entire continent was at war for that whole time.

I'd forgotten that Corypheus was captured so long after the Black City, but if he was walking around for 200 years after that it's a bit weird that he doesn't seem to remember any of it. 

Darth Brotarian wrote...
The chantry doesn't teach people mages are evil, that's propoganda terrorist like anders use to promote their extremist points of kill all the people who worship andraste and belive the teachings. 

Mages are sent to the circle because their magic is extremly powerful, and they need a place where they can be trained, that doesn't risk the whole population of a villiage in doing so. When mages become abominations, they slaugher people in the dozens. Conner killed hundreds of people, meredith's sister slaughter 74 men, woman, and children. Than you have to protect them from insane individuals like wynnes parents who try to kill their kids. You can try to argue a chicken or the egg deal with that, but it's still hate that exist and probably would exist regardless of the circle teachings due to tevinter and their constant slaving ways and continuous middle finger to the whole of thedas promoting hatred for them abroad. Circles probably saved more lives, mage and human, than any other effort put forward. 

I remember that Wynne's parents abandoned her, not that they tried to kill her. And those kind of parents seem to be the majority in Thedas : Anders's father was afraid of him, Cole's father thought he was cursed and beat him, Jowan's mother called him "that thing" and a "demon child", Wynne's parents abandoned her and her adoptive family locked her up once they discovered what she was, Isolde was ashamed that Connor was a mage etc. Finn is pretty much the only mage we've met who had a good relationship with his non-mage parents. 

We've also met a lot of people who were afraid of mages, or thought magic was a curse : Keili, a devout Andrastian mage who wants the templars to "cleanse" the mages during the Broken Circle quest, Ser Jory is extremely uncomfortable if you tell him you're a mage, the Lothering bandit that runs away screaming if you tell him you're a mage (he doesn't do that when you tell him you're a Grey Warden), that mob in Asunder wants to "Burn your curse out of this world once and for all" in the name of the Divine etc.

I don't think the common people of Ferelden and Orlais have enough contact with Tevinter (and especially Tevinter magisters) to derive their fear and hatred of magic from them.

[In Exile]

draken-heart wrote...
Bethany and the Dalish mages are proof that Circles are not needed to train mages right. I still say the circles are there only because the Chantry wants mages to themselves.

The Circles would not have been created if the Chantry did not preach that mages without the Circle=Tevinter reborn.

The Dalish, however, have a mage leader with each contigent of their people. Humans are more numerous and spread out. It's inevitable that you'll have (at least) boarding schools for mage children where those children are raised apart from their parents as a matter of sheer medieval (and Thedosian) logistics, unless you're arguing that each village leader should be a mage? 

"Circles" (the prison like institutions) might not be needed to train mages, but what the Dalish do isn't workable for most of Thedas. 

[Ozzy]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
I had the exact opposite thoughts. The demon was stroking the player's ego, congratulating it on managing to kill a Rage demon (which you do nearly a hundred more times over the course of the game). I think the demon was puffing up your pride because it is... well, a pride demon. And when it's vessel begins to feel prideful is when its power and influence is greatest.

Sure, he congratulates the player on defeating a Rage demon but isn't that just part of the test? When the player pushes him and realises that all isn't what it seems, Mouse acknowledges the ruse, transforms into his true form and leaves the player with a warning. He warns the player to always be on his guard in the Fade and to beware of 'pride'. 

[KR4U55]

I've read 2 pages and nobody have mentioned 2 facts (I'll get sources later) that change circunstances a lot.

1.- Templars become utterly insane by lyrium: As we know, the guardians of mages need lyrium to fight mages, that means each one of them eventually will become extremely paranoid and unable to fulfill his/her duties, including the Knight-Commander. This is horrifying for mages, knowing that every templar could be already a paranoid waiting the smallest sign of disobedience to kill them all. An experienced Knight-Commander has also been in contact with lyrium for longer and he might be cunning enought to cover abuses and mental problems until tragedy ocurrs. Meredith was pretty insane in Act 3. It's a bit fallacious to send Templars, who in spite of their abilities will become unstable, to guard mages.

2.- There are many, MANY ways of getting possesed: There has been some discussion on how exactly demonic possesion works. As we know these are facts:
*A mage can enter the Fade with a ritual involving lyrium. This might be pretty "safe" sonce it has not been stated that the ritual damages the Fade in any way.
*A mage can use Blood Magic to rip the Fade and let Demons enter the world of Thedas.
*There are Demons and Spirits sealed in the Thedas. There are totems, magical stones and other trinkets that have evil stuff sealed inside.
*Kirkwall has a super-thin Veil. There are a ton of mages and Demons. A circle there is necesary to control the mage population in that area.
*Possesion is not exactly a contract, it's a moment of weakness. A mage needs some willpower to resist Demonic influence. Like a Green Lantern ring, you need inmense willpower to operate the ring.

That being said, lets see some examples:
*Uldred might have been a Blood Mage. If he was, then he could contact any Demon he wanted. He might have contacted the Pride Demon some time before the Circle massacre and it just opened the Fade, letting everything out.
*Meredith had an iron grip on the Circle of Kirkwall. She was also stupidly evil. I mean, she knows the Veil is thin, meaning there are more Demons and Mages, and she is perfectly aware that she cannot turn post-Harrowing mages into Tranquils, but she does it a lot, meaning no mage is really safe after the Harrowing and many of them will try to defend themselves.

In conclusion, the Circles are a good idea with a terrible execution. A good Circle is somewhere mages can train their magic and learn to defend themselves against Demons, but they are ruled by paranoid fanatics that believe magic in inherently evil and will eventually go insane. Should the Circle be a prision or a tower? Of course not. Why not a closed village or a castle? That would be so much better, but noooo, put the mages on the prison with all the insane bastards, that will work out perfectly.

[Star fury]

KR4U55 wrote...

I've read 2 pages and nobody have mentioned 2 facts (I'll get sources later) that change circunstances a lot.

1.- Templars become utterly insane by lyrium: As we know, the guardians of mages need lyrium to fight mages, that means each one of them eventually will become extremely paranoid and unable to fulfill his/her duties, including the Knight-Commander. This is horrifying for mages, knowing that every templar could be already a paranoid waiting the smallest sign of disobedience to kill them all. An experienced Knight-Commander has also been in contact with lyrium for longer and he might be cunning enought to cover abuses and mental problems until tragedy ocurrs. Meredith was pretty insane in Act 3. It's a bit fallacious to send Templars, who in spite of their abilities will become unstable, to guard mages.

The more pressing concern is how Templars will survive without lirium after splitting from Chantry. Fighting mages can also be problematic with no lirium. It would be interesting how devs would address that.

As far as I can tell from both games, not all templars get their brains burned by lirium. Meredith was driven insane by idol(aka plot device).

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Dalish elves still promote the killing of mages who fail to prove themselves, and every other country with "free" mages has a all mage controlled goverment in place.

Link?

Marethari outright tells you that if Feynriel can't resist the demons, or if he is too dangerous, that hawke needs to kill him in the fade and make him tranquil. If that doesn't count as a harrowing ritual, I don't know what does. Than there's the reaction merrill's people have for her and making a deal with a demon to use blood magic. It seems pretty clear that the dalish do not tolerate those unable to resist the demons temptations.

[Cainhurst Crow]

draken-heart wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

I never understood the harrowing or Circles.

Mages get locked up because the Chantry brainwashes people into believing that mages are monsters that need to be locked up, and the mage if they pass a harrowing (which is dumb), they are mage, while if they fail, they die.

IF mages are pure evil, why not kill them all when they are found out? The Chantry wants them as artillery, is why.

The chantry doesn't teach people mages are evil, that's propoganda terrorist like anders use to promote their extremist points of kill all the people who worship andraste and belive the teachings.

Mages are sent to the circle because their magic is extremly powerful, and they need a place where they can be trained, that doesn't risk the whole population of a villiage in doing so. When mages become abominations, they slaugher people in the dozens. Conner killed hundreds of people, meredith's sister slaughter 74 men, woman, and children. Than you have to protect them from insane individuals like wynnes parents who try to kill their kids. You can try to argue a chicken or the egg deal with that, but it's still hate that exist and probably would exist regardless of the circle teachings due to tevinter and their constant slaving ways and continuous middle finger to the whole of thedas promoting hatred for them abroad. Circles probably saved more lives, mage and human, than any other effort put forward.

Dalish elves still promote the killing of mages who fail to prove themselves, and every other country with "free" mages has a all mage controlled goverment in place.

But that's not the point. The harrowing is to make the mage apprentices know first hand what it is to be tempted by demons and need to fend them off in the fade. They are taught and trained to fend off demons already in courses, but they need to show they can handle themselves on their own. It's a test of the mages will and character, because magic is a dangerous thing, and having weak willed individuals be granted even more power than they already possess when they can, suddenly and without warning, be attacked by spirits and demons looking to take their body for a massacuring joyride. And when that happens they won't have their enchanters to come bail them out of trouble, they need to stand up for themselves and stand on their own two feet.

Bethany and the Dalish mages are proof that Circles are not needed to train mages right. I still say the circles are there only because the Chantry wants mages to themselves.

The Circles would not have been created if the Chantry did not preach that mages without the Circle=Tevinter reborn.

Bethany and hawke had the luck of having a skilled mage as a father, and the dalish only ever have 2 mages in their clans at any time, a keeper and a first. Both of those had the exceptional circumstance of recieving one on one, highly in depth training. Contrast that to the hundreds of mages who can be in a circle, and it becomes a lot more difficult to give that sort of attention to one student without making the others jeaulous and possibly open to desire demons.

Tevinter and Rivian have circumstances more similar to the whole of thedas, and they are both countries pretty much ruled by the mages as well. Unless you're saying that somehow, there exist well trained, highly encouraging, non-alterior motive having apostates just wandering around out there, waiting for the chance to train a new apprentice with no strings attached.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

To be fair I think it's because Feynriel is a special case.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Marethari outright tells you that if Feynriel can't resist the demons, or if he is too dangerous, that hawke needs to kill him in the fade and make him tranquil. If that doesn't count as a harrowing ritual, I don't know what does. Than there's the reaction merrill's people have for her and making a deal with a demon to use blood magic. It seems pretty clear that the dalish do not tolerate those unable to resist the demons temptations.

Ah, so it's only your assumptions. Okay.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Marethari outright tells you that if Feynriel can't resist the demons, or if he is too dangerous, that hawke needs to kill him in the fade and make him tranquil. If that doesn't count as a harrowing ritual, I don't know what does. Than there's the reaction merrill's people have for her and making a deal with a demon to use blood magic. It seems pretty clear that the dalish do not tolerate those unable to resist the demons temptations.

Ah, so it's only your assumptions. Okay.

And what is your proof, if we're exchanging sources like this.

[Star fury]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Marethari outright tells you that if Feynriel can't resist the demons, or if he is too dangerous, that hawke needs to kill him in the fade and make him tranquil. If that doesn't count as a harrowing ritual, I don't know what does. Than there's the reaction merrill's people have for her and making a deal with a demon to use blood magic. It seems pretty clear that the dalish do not tolerate those unable to resist the demons temptations.

Ah, so it's only your assumptions. Okay.

And what is your proof, if we're exchanging sources like this.

You wrote that "elves kill mages who fail to prove themselves", so you have to prove your statement.

[Cainhurst Crow]

How is what I typed not proof? Shall I link you to the youtube video? I dobut it would sway anything since a simple search of the night terrors mission can show it in plain english.

Modifié par Darth Brotarian, 24 août 2013 - 08:31 .