186 réponses à ce sujet

[ziloe]

Being a year away, there's no doubt plenty of speculation to be had, considering what little we know. However, with the results of ME3's original ending debacle, it's no doubt left a bit of hesitancy in the many who played. Some joking half heartedly that maybe in the end, we'll again pick from three different colours. Maybe five.

Personally, I'd like to think developers have learned from what went on, but with a game so big and boasting so many choices and reactivity, it's no wonder most who make this sort of game, leave it to a more generic ending. After all, you can't please everyone. Even so, ME3 and DA2 left a sour taste in my mouth after hours of enjoyment, simply in the fact that reloading and picking an alternate choice, resulted in essentially the same outcome. Colours, or the same boss as it was in DA2; there was little deviation. 

One of my favourite endings was DA:O. Though, I appreciated the addition of Witchhunt for my romance with Morrigan too. All of which were due to closure. Another couple more epic examples would be what I think many games should aspire to: Final Fantasy IX's ending, or even Legend of Dragoon's climax. I remember watching them and being on the edge of my seat, only to later lay there with a sigh of happiness in how it turned out. Each of the important characters getting their own little moment, to show how it all worked out for each of them.

And if you're anything like me, knowing you're near the ending, you stay awake until 5AM, just to see how it all ends. And with weary eyes, it's just nice to sit back and watch all you've accomplished playout.

I think that's something any game developer, working with a story, needs to remember. We aren't here just for the combat or exploration; we want to be told a good story too. And an ending that matches that calibre, is just as important if not more, especially after hours and hours of emotional investment in the adventure and the characters we grew to love.


((Discuss))

 

Modifié par ziloe, 22 août 2013 - 01:46 .

[TheInquisitor]

Endings are very important to games in my opinion. They can make or break a game.

A good ending must include emotion, closure, tie up loose ends, let us know what has happened to all the characters and how our choices have played out through an epilogue sequence.

[Hilarystamp]

I really hope there is a good end this time.......and I want a boss who is actually a challenge again. Origins had it. DA2 did not, even on hard it was so easy. I want to be biting my nail by the end of the game. Bioware make it happen.

[Sanunes]

Hilarystamp wrote...

I really hope there is a good end this time.......and I want a boss who is actually a challenge again. Origins had it. DA2 did not, even on hard it was so easy. I want to be biting my nail by the end of the game. Bioware make it happen.

I don't even thing Origins had a good "end boss" the ending of a game always seems to be the stumbling block of any BioWare game I am able to remember.  The "boss fights" I remember the most and thinking they were neat were from Mass Effect 2 DLC: Lair of the Shadowbroker, they were a challenge and just didn't feel like a HP soak.

[riccaborto]

Not so much is required to do a good ending...
DAO's ending was perfect to me...

Some lines to tell what happened to this or the other character and the world of Thedas depending on your choices, an emotional background music and the magic is done.

[Fast Jimmy]

What I would really like to see? Little to no option offered at the end.

In DA:O, you killed the Archdemon. Blight ended. Sure, you had some choice about the Dark Ritual or the Ultimate Sacrifice, but, all in all, it was one solution - you took the Big Bad down. The endings were still wildly varied and ranged in consequences mainly because it reacted to your choices made throughout the game, not to one big one at the end.

That's what I'd hope to see. A few choices at the end, but no Big Choices at the end. Let the choices the player has been making all game define how the game ends and where the chips fall.

[Taleroth]

I'm worried that they may not have learned. The last I heard of the official stance on ME3's ending was that Bioware feels people love the extended cut. And while it was a separate team, I'm going to struggle with accepting the idea that it's not part of a shared culture and philosophy.

Dragon Age 2 has excuses for how it ended. The time issue. But whether or not that is truly to blame for the things in how it ended, we can only speculate. I'd like to think so, but, for me, the issue doesn't stop with just these two games. TOR had shades of it, too. I've in fact named it after TOR, I call it "the Gault problem."

I wanted to kill that guy so bad. It's all I wanted from Tattooine. It's the entire reason I was on Tattooine. And every time he shows up, I just wanted to kill him a little more. Did I get to? No. I had to help him out and defraud the people my character worked for. Why? Because they decided to not let you kill companions. Did they change the writing so that the event made sense? No, they did not.

When the deadline looms, when they're still implementing choices and endings, when they finally get this idea of their heads that has been there for months tearing away at brain matter to be expressed, will they question it? Will they ask "is this what these events foreshadowed? Is this what the players intended to accomplish? is the work of the other writers on the project contributing to the themes and ideas without conflict?" If they don't ask that question, then it's tossup for if it'll be a good ending. If they do ask that question and they find the answer wanting, will they even have the chance to change it?

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 août 2013 - 02:07 .

[SpunkyMonkey]

Choice is the key thing, and if BW haven't learned this after ME3 then something's seriously wrong.

Good, bad, bitter-sweet etc. - it really should all boil down to a significant reaction to player choices throughout the game.

Personally I enjoy endings with an after-ending where I can roam around and explore a bit.

[Fast Jimmy]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm worried that they may not have learned. The last I heard of the official stance on ME3's ending was that Bioware feels people love the extended cut. And while it was a separate team, I'm going to struggle with accepting the idea that it's not part of a shared culture and philosophy.

Dragon Age 2 has excuses for how it ended. The time issue. But whether or not that is truly to blame for the things in how it ended, we can only speculate. I'd like to think so, but, for me, the issue doesn't stop with just these two games. TOR had shades of it, too. I've in fact named it after TOR, I call it "the Gault problem."

Will the practical changes necessary for design support player agency?

When the deadline looms, when they're still implementing choices and endings, when they finally get this idea of their heads that has been there for months tearing away at brain matter to be expressed, will they question it? Will they ask "is this what these events foreshadowed? Is this what the players intended to accomplish? is the work of the other writers on the project contributing to the themes and ideas without conflict?" If they don't ask that question, then it's tossup for if it'll be a good ending. If they do ask that question and they find the answer wanting, will they even have the chance to change it?

Brent Knowles, Creative Lead for DA:O, said that, as unfortunate as it is for game development, endings are often the last things created and more often than not, deal with the shortest supply of resources.

For instance, for DA:O, did you know that originally there was no Dark Ritual offered by Morrigan, but a questline to go find a magical weapon that the Grey Wardens used to kill the Archdemon? There was no death of a Warden involved originally. The change to the Sacrifice/Ritual dichotomy wasn't added until later in the development phase. Yet many feel it was a perfectly done choice, one that the entire tone of the series matched.

Point being, if an ending is usually the last thing settled on, it can be difficult to make sure it has plenty of time for review and seemless integration, since the chances to go back and hook previous story and plot elements to do things like foreshadowing and themes. 

I think we'd all like it if endings were decided, written in stone, about a year before the game was signed off on, to make sure the story from beginning to end is seamless and strong for the player from all viewpoints. But this doesn't seem to be the case for how most game development works.

[Darth Death]

The destination is far more important than the journey imo.

[fchopin]

If the journey is not good then I never see the ending.

Modifié par fchopin, 22 août 2013 - 02:20 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Darth Death wrote...

The destination is far more important than the journey imo.

I agree. A game can be immensely enjoyable, but it is still a challenge. A representation of time, work and passion on the part of the player. To have them wind up in a place that they find reprehensible is terrible planning.

It's like going on a 100 mile bike ride. You could enjoy the challenge, feel great about doing it, enjoy it with others, admire the scenery along the way... but if your reward is to show up and get smacked in the face, you aren't going to be happy about it.

[ziloe]

Taleroth wrote...

I'm worried that they may not have learned. The last I heard of the official stance on ME3's ending was that Bioware feels people love the extended cut. And while it was a separate team, I'm going to struggle with accepting the idea that it's not part of a shared culture and philosophy.

Dragon Age 2 has excuses for how it ended. The time issue. But whether or not that is truly to blame for the things in how it ended, we can only speculate. I'd like to think so, but, for me, the issue doesn't stop with just these two games. TOR had shades of it, too. I've in fact named it after TOR, I call it "the Gault problem."

I wanted to kill that guy so bad. It's all I wanted from Tattooine. It's the entire reason I was on Tattooine. And every time he shows up, I just wanted to kill him a little more. Did I get to? No. I had to help him out and defraud the people my character worked for. Why? Because they decided to not let you kill companions. Did they change the writing so that the event made sense? No, they did not.

When the deadline looms, when they're still implementing choices and endings, when they finally get this idea of their heads that has been there for months tearing away at brain matter to be expressed, will they question it? Will they ask "is this what these events foreshadowed? Is this what the players intended to accomplish? is the work of the other writers on the project contributing to the themes and ideas without conflict?" If they don't ask that question, then it's tossup for if it'll be a good ending. If they do ask that question and they find the answer wanting, will they even have the chance to change it?

The time issue is exactly why I mentioned it now, and not when the game was already in alpha, haha. At least right now, they can stop and think, "Hey, wait a minute..."

Unfortunately, I didn't get into ToR. There were some bugs I just couldn't get passed, like my character freezing after combat and being unable to move. 

That aside, I totally agree. These questions need to be asked. Otherwise, what's the point of making a grand story, if you don't know how you're going to finish it? It's my understanding they have an idea for five games and how it all plays out, but each game is also its own entity, and in that, it needs its own proper sendoff too. 

Modifié par ziloe, 22 août 2013 - 02:41 .

[Vapaa]

Darth Death wrote...

The destination is far more important than the journey imo.

The journey needs to be great too, it doesn't matter if you end up in superb beach in Vanuatu if you get there in a worn out caravel while carriying scurvy....But it's also doesn't matter if you're travelling along in a luxourious yaucht full of gold and white onyx if you end up feeding the fish, two miles deep in the ocean.

The journey matters as much as the destination, I don't think you can totally dissociate those two intricate concepts.

[Bfler]

Hilarystamp wrote...
...and I want a boss who is actually a challenge again. Origins had it...

The Archdemon is rather easy, when you call your allies and when one of your rogues (because of the repairs) operates the ballistae.

The most difficult fight in the game is, i think,  the Harvester in Amgarrak. 

Modifié par Bfler, 22 août 2013 - 02:50 .

[Dagr88]

... Multi-stage boss battle.

First you fight boss in his/her/its ''human form''.
Then you fight overgrown form.
And lastly a big 3xDragon size monstrosity. Your allies (Companions / Mayor NPCs) help you fight ''it'', while allied armies try hold constantly summoned minions and help you fight it with alterary of spells and catapults.

Maybe use some artifacts that you found throughout the game to slice about 20% of ''its'' HP (or not use it and do something else with it after the battle is won).
The whole thing is mix of God of War (with slightly obvious weak point, but without QTEs) and Final Fantasy Last Boss Battles.

SpunkyMonkey wrote...
Personally I enjoy endings with an after-ending where I can roam around and explore a bit.

I would like to see those too, with some small post-ending story.

Modifié par Dagr88, 22 août 2013 - 02:49 .

[Wulfram]

I think video game endings are kind of tough. Though Bioware's been on a little bit of a bad run lately, I think.

But they've generally been bad in different ways, so it's hard to draw much in the way of conclusions or useful feedback from that. Though I'd ask them to treat it as more of the ending of a series with an ensemble cast and less like the end of a movie - I want to know about all the party and about some of the major side plots, not just that the Hero beat the main bad guy.

[ziloe]

SpunkyMonkey wrote...

Personally I enjoy endings with an after-ending where I can roam around and explore a bit.

Just as long as it's not like Skyrim, where after I win on either side of the stormcloaks or imperials, the game barely acknowledges the victory. 

[Wulfram]

Marten Stroud wrote...

Yeah, they should have made the civil war part of the main quest.

I don't know, I appreciated the ability to let my character stay neutral.

[KennethAFTopp]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Brent Knowles, Creative Lead for DA:O, said that, as unfortunate as it is for game development, endings are often the last things created and more often than not, deal with the shortest supply of resources.

For instance, for DA:O, did you know that originally there was no Dark Ritual offered by Morrigan, but a questline to go find a magical weapon that the Grey Wardens used to kill the Archdemon? There was no death of a Warden involved originally. The change to the Sacrifice/Ritual dichotomy wasn't added until later in the development phase. Yet many feel it was a perfectly done choice, one that the entire tone of the series matched.

Dayum, that really saved their Bacon at that time. I really like the ending we got.

Wulfram wrote...

I don't know, I appreciated the ability to let my character stay neutral.

I wouldn't really call it being neutral.
Oh! We're talking Skyrim. sorry.

Modifié par KennethAFTopp, 22 août 2013 - 03:15 .

[ziloe]

Wulfram wrote...

Marten Stroud wrote...

Yeah, they should have made the civil war part of the main quest.

I don't know, I appreciated the ability to let my character stay neutral.

Most playthroughs, I remained neutral, but only because there was no significant change to picking either side. I was hoping for some DLC to deal with the Thalmor, but Bethesda backed off from their claim of three major DLCs.

And I scoff if they think Hearthfire actually counts. Ugh.

[cindercatz]

Really, all I care about for the ending are that it's well written/presented, that my choices throughout the game are reflected (much more than having a big last choice), that it's consistent with what came before thematically, and that there is a kick@ss epilogue sequence that tells me where things lie and what's immediately in store for my character, their companions, allies, etc.

I also really, really love kind of a down key wrap-up like DA:O had, or like RDR finding the last loose thread and having one last quickdraw duel. Just something to send you off satisfied and tie up immediate loose ends.

I honestly don't even care if there is a last boss fight. Y'know, I love that little quickdraw duel, I love kind of the just sitting there for ten minutes deciding if I want to interrupt the guy's monologue in, I think it was Fable 2. That kind of thing, so long as it follows everything before it, I enjoy that stuff just as much as any boss fight. If there is a boss fight, I think my favorites have been the Archdemon in DA:O, Sephiroth in FF7, the various duels in the Metal Gear games, the end of Bayonetta where everything just escalates exponentially, Malak in KoTOR , and Saren in ME1. So, all different kinds of things, but it's most important that they be consistent and flow from the story, not the other way around. Those are the ones that are satisfying to me. Gameplay mechanics are secondary to story in any ending.

edit: a few more good ends ;-)
edit 2: My absolute favorite ending ever is in Heavy Rain, even if it's not something you can really apply to Dragon Age. The last sequence is wildly different depending on what came before it, changes drastically based on spontaneous choices and how successful you are at accomplishing whatever it is you're trying to do, and leaves you with wildly different, full epilogue scenes that touch every major character in the game. Everything wraps up beautifully. So that's the ideal, but again, I don't know how much you can apply it to DA.

Modifié par cindercatz, 22 août 2013 - 03:51 .

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Bfler wrote...

Hilarystamp wrote...
...and I want a boss who is actually a challenge again. Origins had it...

The Archdemon is rather easy, when you call your allies and when one of your rogues (because of the repairs) operates the ballistae.

The most difficult fight in the game is, i think,  the Harvester in Amgarrak. 

The bolt can only be repaired a few times on normal and above. Though, yes, it's still easy if you have lots of potions.

[Maria Caliban]

Find bad guy. Kill bad guy. Be a big god damn hero.

And if you tease me with blue babies, I better live to have them.

cindercatz wrote...

I honestly don't even care if there is a last boss fight.

For DA:O, the entire battle of Denerim up to the Archdemon was just me typing killallhostiles.

Thank goodness for being on PC.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 août 2013 - 03:50 .