186 réponses à ce sujet

[Linkenski]

If a leaked script is seen months ahead of release and it causes a backlash because fans hate the planned ending, I want Bioware to postpone the release half a year and do it properly instead this time. I want Bioware to be satisfied with it as much as I'd like their fans to be the same. Bioware should know by this point that an ending can't be rushed at the final part of their story, or it's gonna ruin their franchise. Please Bioware, hear me. DO think everything through with this ending, and don't lock the David Gaider in a room with the director so the editing team or the senior writers can't follow your progress. The introduction is important for various reasons, but the ending of the final game in a franchise is not just the ending of that game. It's THE ending of that franchise, and if it's lackluster it's gonna potentially ruin everything within that franchise. I stress again. DO THINK IT THROUGH BW!

[Fast Jimmy]

^

It's not the final game of the series.

[ziloe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

^

It's not the final game of the series.

Ending of the series or not, they definitely should make sure they have all the right elements and so forth, before going ahead with the ending they may potentially have. 

I mean honestly, the fact that it's not the ending of the series, doesn't mean I want it to be left on a cliffhanger either. 

Modifié par ziloe, 25 août 2013 - 08:46 .

[Fast Jimmy]

I couldn't agree more.

[Get Magna Carter]

I think the term Cliffhanger is overused
Dragon Age 2 did not have a cliffhanger.
It concluded the story of Hawke's involvement in the incidents in Kirkwall and then had an epilogue setting up mysteries and plot points ready for further releases
That is not a cliffhanger
If they had ended with Hawke confronting Meredith that would have been a cliffhanger.
If they had shown Hawke with his friends and Hawke suddenly vanishing to a shocked reaction then that would be a cliffhanger.
What we got was vague indicating mystery rather than immediate danger so it was not a cliffhanger

[ziloe]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

I think the term Cliffhanger is overused
Dragon Age 2 did not have a cliffhanger.
It concluded the story of Hawke's involvement in the incidents in Kirkwall and then had an epilogue setting up mysteries and plot points ready for further releases
That is not a cliffhanger
If they had ended with Hawke confronting Meredith that would have been a cliffhanger.
If they had shown Hawke with his friends and Hawke suddenly vanishing to a shocked reaction then that would be a cliffhanger.
What we got was vague indicating mystery rather than immediate danger so it was not a cliffhanger

To be fair, the term cliffhanger became known for DA2 when we learned there was supposed to be DLC covering the last section. But people complained so much about it, the devs just didn't want to bother and they cancelled it.

[Twisted Path]

There was going to be an expansion to wrap up DA2's story but it got canceled because it wouldn't have sold well.

You know, a good ending to a game is always nice but I don't think it's that important. I have fond memories of Neverwinter Nights 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2 despite neither game really having an ending at all. I also just didn't like Mass Effect 3 from the start, and if I had enjoyed it as much as the previous two games I probably would have shrugged off the silly ending.

[Fast Jimmy]

Twisted Path wrote...

There was going to be an expansion to wrap up DA2's story but it got canceled because it wouldn't have sold well.

You know, a good ending to a game is always nice but I don't think it's that important. I have fond memories of Neverwinter Nights 2 and Knights of the Old Republic 2 despite neither game really having an ending at all. I also just didn't like Mass Effect 3 from the start, and if I had enjoyed it as much as the previous two games I probably would have shrugged off the silly ending.

I disagree. As counter to logic as it may seem, I think the key to replayability is a solid, varied ending. And replayability is the number one draw for a guy like me.

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I disagree. As counter to logic as it may seem, I think the key to replayability is a solid, varied ending. And replayability is the number one draw for a guy like me.

I think branching content in-game is what matters (ala TW2). A varied ending is like a functional UI - the game will be a lot worse without it, but having it there doesn't make the game replayable. 

[Herr Uhl]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I disagree. As counter to logic as it may seem, I think the key to replayability is a solid, varied ending. And replayability is the number one draw for a guy like me.

I think branching content in-game is what matters (ala TW2). A varied ending is like a functional UI - the game will be a lot worse without it, but having it there doesn't make the game replayable. 

I agree, the problem with focusing on only varied endings is that the difference isn't necessarily there for most of the game, making most of it a retread.

Edit: We can use Witcher 1 as an example here, the changes were very slight and only affected the end of chapters (and the last one to a small degree) whereas in Witcher 2 you got an almost entirely different experience.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 26 août 2013 - 03:29 .

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I disagree. As counter to logic as it may seem, I think the key to replayability is a solid, varied ending. And replayability is the number one draw for a guy like me.

I think branching content in-game is what matters (ala TW2). A varied ending is like a functional UI - the game will be a lot worse without it, but having it there doesn't make the game replayable. 

To me, branching content doesn't wind up satisfying me nearly as much as a 15 second epilogue slide at the end. I guess I'm really weird like that.

With brancing content, I'm always like "more, more, more!" If you give me two options, I want to take both of them on subsequent playthroughs. But I'm going to keep looking for more options underneath those options, and options underneath those as well.

When it's the end, I know that's it. And that brings a lot closure, especially when the ending itself varies based on what I did in game. 

For instance, a letter (or email, if this is the ME series) talking about how much I helped a certain character does next to nothing for me. I'm 100% of the time like "meh." But if you put that same letter as an epilogue slide after the game is over? I'll cherish it. There's something special about endings. Content is content - but endings are your parting gift for the time you spent on your playthrough.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 août 2013 - 03:46 .

[In Exile]

Herr Uhl wrote...
I agree, the problem with focusing on only varied endings is that the difference isn't necessarily there for most of the game, making most of it a retread.

Depending on how low the bar for what satisfies players is, you could have a lengthy epilogue for every single choice made in-game with radically different outcomes for each choice. It'll cost more, but in the grand scheme of things, that sort of ending is way cheaper than branching content - no animations, no VO, etc. Just scripting. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To me, branching content doesn't wind up satisfying me nearly as much as a 15 second epilogue slide at the end. I guess I'm really weird like that.

...

When it's the end, I know that's it. And that brings a lot closure, especially when the ending itself varies based on what I did in game.  

...

There's something special about endings. Content is content - but endings are your parting gift for the time you spent on your playthrough.

I just find the epilogue contrived, because it's obviously a design choice to avoid creating any different worldstate in-game. I feel about it the same way you do about the importing mechanism. 

I agree with you that the endings are important, and that content for the ending has a different weight than in-game content for part of the feeling you take away. It's just not something that makes me want to replay the game past a certain point. 

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
I agree, the problem with focusing on only varied endings is that the difference isn't necessarily there for most of the game, making most of it a retread.

Depending on how low the bar for what satisfies players is, you could have a lengthy epilogue for every single choice made in-game with radically different outcomes for each choice. It'll cost more, but in the grand scheme of things, that sort of ending is way cheaper than branching content - no animations, no VO, etc. Just scripting. 

Which is why I think DA:O had one of the best ending concepts in the history of gaming.

And I'm not speaking in hyperbole... I think the DA:O ending format should be taught in game desing schools. It does EVERYTHING right. Pacing, connection, closure, reactivity, cinematics... it is all BEYOND well done. It is brilliant.

I've written 1,000+ word posts talking about how the format of the entire ending sequence, from arriving in Denerim at the Landsmeet until the credits roll is one of the best climaxes and crescendos in gaming. I won't do so again here, but I will say that using epilogue slides in this fashion is a fantastic move (no voice over, no cinematics, just text and maybe a graphic) that helps leverage player choice in a mammoth way.

[Taleroth]

As long as they don't try to twist the ending up too much, it shouldn't be a problem.

Players like to establish their goals pretty early so they feel proactive. When you start changing up their goals at the final moments, then is when they feel like they're strung along and only reacting. Especially should they not be given the chance to fulfill their initial goal.

That's where ME3 and DA2 really mess up their endings. It's not the lack of variety and choices that matter. It's that what the player was told to expect in the beginning was completely different from what they were told to do at the end. And even what they expected to do an hour before the ending became grossly different from the actual end.

As long as they keep the thread on the veil tear, I think they can do fine. But if you want to be skeptical and afraid that, an hour before the ending, it changes from "veil tear" to "all magic is dangerous" or something, feel free to do so.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...
To me, branching content doesn't wind up satisfying me nearly as much as a 15 second epilogue slide at the end. I guess I'm really weird like that.

...

When it's the end, I know that's it. And that brings a lot closure, especially when the ending itself varies based on what I did in game.  

...

There's something special about endings. Content is content - but endings are your parting gift for the time you spent on your playthrough.

I just find the epilogue contrived, because it's obviously a design choice to avoid creating any different worldstate in-game. I feel about it the same way you do about the importing mechanism. 

Yet I feel like good choices shouldn't occur in the game. The time frames for the events in the game are, not surprisingly, limited. We can't hang around long enough for Dagna to become an adult and write her book on how lyrium vapors might control the magic supply of the world. We wouldn't stand by in Orzammar as Bhelen overthrew the Assembly and made his own personal army of golems using topsiders. We wouldn't even be able to tell you what happened to your companions after the last scene played, because it would be all so far removed from the events of the game as to seem weird.

And I don't think you can do this cinematically, either. And not just from a cost perspective... how would you tell, cinematically, that the boy who you borrowed the sword from in Redcliffe and returned back to him wound up becoming an adventurer? How would you show that Harrowmont became an ineffective leader that became mired in the plots of the Assembly? How would you show that Shianni became an advisor to the crown and that she helped put down a violent conflict?

These types of things would not only be impossible to show in game, but also very difficult and confusing to tell visually. Some things just work better as text. I think showing visually, as a format, is a highly overrated and limited medium in many cases.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 26 août 2013 - 03:53 .

[ManchesterUnitedFan1]

@Fast Jimmy

Although that was rendered pointless by DG saying that most things in the Epilogue probably didn't even happen, so...

For example, in my game, Cullen went berserk. Apparently, this didn't actually happen.

[Fast Jimmy]

ManchesterUnitedFan1 wrote...

@Fast Jimmy

Although that was rendered pointless by DG saying that most things in the Epilogue probably didn't even happen, so...

For example, in my game, Cullen went berserk. Apparently, this didn't actually happen.

I don't have a problem with that, honestly. Mostly because I think the Save Import is a misguided idea for a game feature.

[ziloe]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I disagree. As counter to logic as it may seem, I think the key to replayability is a solid, varied ending. And replayability is the number one draw for a guy like me.

I think branching content in-game is what matters (ala TW2). A varied ending is like a functional UI - the game will be a lot worse without it, but having it there doesn't make the game replayable. 

To me, branching content doesn't wind up satisfying me nearly as much as a 15 second epilogue slide at the end. I guess I'm really weird like that.

With brancing content, I'm always like "more, more, more!" If you give me two options, I want to take both of them on subsequent playthroughs. But I'm going to keep looking for more options underneath those options, and options underneath those as well.

When it's the end, I know that's it. And that brings a lot closure, especially when the ending itself varies based on what I did in game. 

For instance, a letter (or email, if this is the ME series) talking about how much I helped a certain character does next to nothing for me. I'm 100% of the time like "meh." But if you put that same letter as an epilogue slide after the game is over? I'll cherish it. There's something special about endings. Content is content - but endings are your parting gift for the time you spent on your playthrough.

I was never crazy about the emails in ME, I felt it would have been nicer to encounter those characters while traveling around the places I'd met them and having them say something instead. Even with epilogues, I'm a very visual kind of person. I don't want to be told, "this character is now happy or sad," I want to be shown that.

[ziloe]

Taleroth wrote...

As long as they don't try to twist the ending up too much, it shouldn't be a problem.

Players like to establish their goals pretty early so they feel proactive. When you start changing up their goals at the final moments, then is when they feel like they're strung along and only reacting. Especially should they not be given the chance to fulfill their initial goal.

That's where ME3 and DA2 really mess up their endings. It's not the lack of variety and choices that matter. It's that what the player was told to expect in the beginning was completely different from what they were told to do at the end. And even what they expected to do an hour before the ending became grossly different from the actual end.

As long as they keep the thread on the veil tear, I think they can do fine. But if you want to be skeptical and afraid that, an hour before the ending, it changes from "veil tear" to "all magic is dangerous" or something, feel free to do so.

Honestly, ME3 should have ended where Anderson and Shepard were sitting, watching out the window. And whether you had done good or bad in the assets department, would enable what you saw outside, whether it was victory or defeat. It was such a beautiful moment between the both of them, especially that bit that they cut out with Anderson talking to Shepard about having a family, etc.

But sadly, all of that was suddenly diminished by this awful scene with some god child who had no place in the series, whatsoever. 

Modifié par ziloe, 26 août 2013 - 11:05 .

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Which is why I think DA:O had one of the best ending concepts in the history of gaming.

And I'm not speaking in hyperbole... I think the DA:O ending format should be taught in game desing schools. It does EVERYTHING right. Pacing, connection, closure, reactivity, cinematics... it is all BEYOND well done. It is brilliant.  

I found it incredibly unsatisfying, and my first reaction putting down DA:O wasn't far removed form my first reaction putting down ME3. As for the epilogues, Bioware already used that idea in NWN:HoTU. 

[In Exile]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Yet I feel like good choices shouldn't occur in the game. The time frames for the events in the game are, not surprisingly, limited. We can't hang around long enough for Dagna to become an adult and write her book on how lyrium vapors might control the magic supply of the world. We wouldn't stand by in Orzammar as Bhelen overthrew the Assembly and made his own personal army of golems using topsiders. We wouldn't even be able to tell you what happened to your companions after the last scene played, because it would be all so far removed from the events of the game as to seem weird.

But that doesn't mean anything for me. Those choices don't have any value. Becuase I don't see them. Whether Bhelen is a tyrant that decorates his room with the skulls of his enemies, decorates all of Orzammar with flowers and declares every day free chocolate ice cream day, I don't see or experience any of it. It has no weight because I'm not there for it. 

More importantly, those choices most often don't have any impact on anything I - as a player - have come to care about. The majority of choices are just things I'm entirely divorced from and am dealing with entirely for short-term reasons. 

And not just from a cost perspective... how would you tell, cinematically, that the boy who you borrowed the sword from in Redcliffe and returned back to him wound up becoming an adventurer? How would you show that Harrowmont became an ineffective leader that became mired in the plots of the Assembly? How would you show that Shianni became an advisor to the crown and that she helped put down a violent conflict?

How do you show that [X] is an ineffective leader that became mired in political plots in-game? How do you show that [Y] is an advisor to the Crown and that [Y] put down a violent conflict? It's very obvious how you do it. The question is whether it's worth it.

I'm sure your response will be that these consequences are totally divorced from what the game is about. But that's just another one of my problems with DA:O .Much of the game is about generally irrelevant flavour subplots (compared to the main conflict of the game) which has the result of making it very hard to show any tangible consequences from your choices because of the time scale.

One example - using the anvil of the void - would be having squads pick up people in the street for conversion (often Bhelen's political enemies) and Bhelen saying that now is the time to bolster the army and create political stability to stand against the Blight. 

These types of things would not only be impossible to show in game, but also very difficult and confusing to tell visually. Some things just work better as text. I think showing visually, as a format, is a highly overrated and limited medium in many cases.

I think consequences don't have any weight unless the player experiences them. It's all abstract otherwise. 

[ziloe]

In Exile wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Which is why I think DA:O had one of the best ending concepts in the history of gaming.

And I'm not speaking in hyperbole... I think the DA:O ending format should be taught in game desing schools. It does EVERYTHING right. Pacing, connection, closure, reactivity, cinematics... it is all BEYOND well done. It is brilliant.  

I found it incredibly unsatisfying, and my first reaction putting down DA:O wasn't far removed form my first reaction putting down ME3. As for the epilogues, Bioware already used that idea in NWN:HoTU. 

Epilogue stills aside, the last section before you walk out the doors into a cheering crowd, that was great. It made you feel like a real hero. And I was still feeling that, when the stills came along.

[In Exile]

ziloe wrote...
Epilogue stills aside, the last section before you walk out the doors into a cheering crowd, that was great. It made you feel like a real hero. And I was still feeling that, when the stills came along.

Except for the fact that there is no crowd or cheering. But there are lots of other reasons that the ending doesn't work for me, part of it being my own issues with the typical save the status quo western fantasy plots, and part of it being the last minute shell-game that Morrigan and Suicide-by-Jumping play on you.