348 réponses à ce sujet

[General Malor]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

General Malor wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Grey Wardens use blood magic against the darkspawn, it's not a problem for them. Why should it be problem for me? Duncan is fairly neutral and pragmatic about warden mages killing darkspawn with anything they have. 

Because the Blight is far more dangerous than any one blood mage. It's like a murderous gangster vs a sadistic serial killer, they are both bad, but if the ganster will fight the serial killer then they're useful for a time.

Lesser evil doesn't mean that it's not evil.

Valid point.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have Word of Gaider that the magic is not inherently evil, and that the only corruption comes from the person wielding it letting the power go to his/her head. I'm still waiting on his word on the Maker.

We do? Where? I've not seen it, and I don't doubt you very much, so I would love to see this. It would pretty much settle the discussion.

It will if people read it. There's people doing so, you included obviously, but there's also people on this forum who don't read the case against their arguments.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/631964/1#638830

My biggest problem with blood magic and people who argue for it is I don't see many instances where they show an NPC using blood magic for anything good. Ever. In any of the games or books I can't think of an instance where it has been a positive, as I've said earlier. It doesn't mean it's not out there, just that I can't think of it. The player's use of it doesn't really matter because they don't use blood magic to achieve good ends that are directly of and the sole effect from blood magic. Killing the Archdemon doesn't count, because everyone does that if they beat the game, so it's not dependent on blood magic.

It requires the Joining, and the cost is defrayed by Morrigan's ritual. That's blood magic twice.

Interesting, so blood magic isn't evil, from Gaider himself. I'm settled on it. But I will maintain that most who use it are quite evil. Yay, discussion resolved. Blood magic isn't evil! Only people are evil! So it's a gun, good to know.

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead. 

Also the dark ritual I think you're talking about with Morrigan and I'm not sure that's blood magic either. Both of those have to do with souls and spirits, and you can interact with spirits without using blood magic.

I think I'd have to see a case for a clear distinction from blood magic and magic that involves blood.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm not entirely convinced on the case for blood magic v Archdemon.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

General Malor wrote...
Interesting, so blood magic isn't evil, from Gaider himself. I'm settled on it. But I will maintain that most who use it are quite evil. Yay, discussion resolved. Blood magic isn't evil! Only people are evil! So it's a gun, good to know.

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead.

Duncan notes that he'd used mages to prepare it, and Alistair notes that it requires some form of magic besides the lyrium and the blood. So, it's definitely magical alchemy that requires additional magic and draws its efficacy from blood. One might argue that that's not blood magic, but things that are more tenous than this still apparently qualify.

Also the dark ritual I think you're talking about with Morrigan and I'm not sure that's blood magic either. Both of those have to do with souls and spirits, and you can interact with spirits without using blood magic.

She flat out admits that theres's a case for calling it blood magic, and rather than try to argue that it isn't she tries to appeal-to-flattery the Warden into ignoring that point. I think that probably means its blood magic.

I think I'd have to see a case for a clear distinction from blood magic and magic that involves blood.

I'm not saying your wrong, but I'm not entirely convinced on the case for blood magic v Archdemon.

Gaider stated outright that the phylacteries are blood magic, apparently. I'd get you a source but apparently this was at a con. Point is, if the Dark Ritual and the phylacteries are both blood magic, I'd argue that the Joining probably is too, since Morrigan's ritual doesn't really even involve blood.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 août 2013 - 07:29 .

[Ieldra]

General Malor wrote...
Interesting, so blood magic isn't evil, from Gaider himself. I'm settled on it. But I will maintain that most who use it are quite evil. Yay, discussion resolved. Blood magic isn't evil! Only people are evil! So it's a gun, good to know.

Nice to see that confirmed by Gaider. Here's the quote again for those who couldn't be bothered to click the link:

David Gaider wrote...
Blood magic isn't inherently evil, but the temptation to do evil when you have the power to bend others to your will must be insidious.

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead.

IIRC it doesn't require lyrium. As for the definition of blood magic, I'd say it's "any magic that uses the power inherent in the substance of life" (accepting that blood literally is that in this universe). The Joining may not be blood magic according to that definition, but the phylacteries are blood magic, since nothing else can link as effectively to a person than their own substance of life.   

Also the dark ritual I think you're talking about with Morrigan and I'm not sure that's blood magic either. Both of those have to do with souls and spirits, and you can interact with spirits without using blood magic.

Indeed, that's not blood magic. If anything, it's sex magic.

Edit: IIRC, David Gaider wrote that phylacteries are a "borderline case" of blood magic. I think it was on his blog, but I can't find it atm.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 23 août 2013 - 07:52 .

[General Malor]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Indeed, that's not blood magic. If anything, it's sex magic.

Edit: IIRC, David Gaider wrote that phylacteries are a "borderline case" of blood magic. I think it was on his blog, but I can't find it atm.

Honestly I think this is closer. Because after a night it's not yet a fetus it's just a fertilzed egg, so if anything its just the notion of it, but clearly sex plays a part in that. Still not enough to convince me it's blood magic. I think if she said you could make a case for it we shouldn't take it as there is a very strong case for it.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Gaider stated outright that the phylacteries are blood magic, apparently. I'd get you a source but apparently this was at a con. Point is, if the Dark Ritual and the phylacteries are both blood magic, I'd argue that the Joining probably is too, since Morrigan's ritual doesn't really even involve blood.

Maybe she just didn't want to call it sperm magic?

And given that we're trying to find definitive definitions I would tend to side whoever has more evidence.

While the joining, the phylacteries, and dark ritual might be blood magic I don't see enough evidence there.

For the joining it takes the Mages time to prepare the lyruim and other components, so they are directly working their magic on the lyrium and whatever else goes into the joining materials. You add in the darkspawn blood later, which completes it. So again this seems to me like potion making, and the rest of the process is more magical in nature, at least moreso enough to call it magic. The blood is an ingredient, yet a refined and focused version of the Taint in the blood is what they're after. Darkspawn blood carries it, it isn't the Taint though, which is what gives the Grey Wardens their powers.

The phylacteries seem to me again to be on the side of magic that involves blood and not blood magic. I can imagine that they use the blood to track down an apostate who's run off, but given that it's Templars and they aren't using the blood to power said tracking spell(since how could they, they're Templars) I don't think that falls under blood magic.

For the dark ritual... sex magic. I mean think about it. So the Warden's... uh... sample is what draws the attention of the Old God's soul, and draws it away from the Wardens who are present. Needless to say that magic goes into that, but we don't know of any direct blood being used as the fuel for said magic. So maybe Morrigan knew of a way to take the fertilzing egg and the taint that would be present in the sample from the Warden and just call out to the Old God and create a sort of trap. Cool? Yes. Magical? Definitely. Blood-magical? I don't think it is.

I'm not saying I'm surely right, but I'm just having a difficult time seeing the reverse. Blood magic is magic done by using blood as the fuel, and all of these seem to be magic that happens to involve blood, or in the case of the dark ritual; tainted sperm.

Modifié par General Malor, 23 août 2013 - 08:12 .

[Fredward]

^ All this talk of sperm magic reminds me of when my Hawke lamented the fact that she only ever meets blood mages. There are far worse things out there Hawke.

[Mecha Elf]

I don't know but whenever I play as a blood Mage I'm always playing as jerkface-mgee. Oh maker it REALLY DOES CHANGE PEOPLE! No but I wouldn't think so, I mean it's what the person does with it, I guess. Or if they try really hard enough to not get possessed. Merrill is sweet kind and innocent and she's not slaughtering people or controlling their minds, or at least I don't think so..

[DarthLaxian]

Jorina Leto wrote...

The chantry says blood magic is evil. This means blood magic is evil.

and the chantry is bull-crap! (so what does that say about their dogma/rules etc.?)

greetings LAX
ps: no, Blood-Magic is not evil (not in the slightest) - it tempts people, yes and it can be used in "evil" ways - but like Benjamin Frankling said: "...but if you want to test a man's character, give him (or her) power!" and there is your problem, many people will feel the rush of power and see what they can do now and then start using it to further their goals (!) and depending on the POV this can be evil (say a Templar sees a blood-mage controll a guard to let some mages flee) or good (same thing, this the person watching is another mage (or you see that from the POV of a jailed mage!)) so yes, it can be (if the user is evil) but all said and done blood-magic itself is neither good nor evil (same as a gun is neither good nor evil - you can go out and shoot people with it or take it to the range for target practice, the weapon stays just that, a weapon (meaning: a tool!))

[ScarMK]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead.

According to Finn, if a spell doesn't draw power from blood it's *technically* not blood magic.

[The Six Path of Pain]

Jowan looked and acted plenty nice to me, though he was a bit mislead by Loghain. So I would definitely say the user/wielder of Blood Magic is evil and not the actual magic itself. Another example is Merril. While she was stupid she never turned evil.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

ScarMK wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead.

According to Finn, if a spell doesn't draw power from blood it's *technically* not blood magic.

And yet he still doesn't want it to become public knowledge that he did the spell that this was relevant to. And while I can't find the Gaider quote or even his exact words, apparently he came right out and says that yes, its still blood magic.

[Okamiden556]

@Darth Brotarian Blood magic is fueled by life force converted into mana, not pain and suffering.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

According to WoT, blood magic draws on the pain inflicted to power it. The more pain inflicted, the more powerful the things you can do with it.

[Alex1412]

Think of it like what catholic church says about gays "HOMOSEXUALS ARE AN ABOMINATION!" same thing goes for blood magic, is not that blood magic itself is evil, just that Andraste said so "BLOOD MAGIC IS EVIL!", Merrill says that blood magic was normal for her ancestors and I think in Tevinter they also use that.
I myself prefer blood magic over the "normal" one fueled by lyrium (I don't think that sh** is healthy), blood magic is fueled by one's life and is actually stronger, however like others, I do agree that that causes problems, you know what they say right? Power corrupts... or a demon.

[xnode]

Funny thing, reading this thread and some people want to know why this coming version of DA is the inquisition ?

((see this thread ))

Perfect example why, even here we debate the exact thing Thadus has for a long time now

Modifié par xnode, 25 août 2013 - 09:38 .

[JJDXB]

Alex1412 wrote...

Think of it like what catholic church says about gays "HOMOSEXUALS ARE AN ABOMINATION!" same thing goes for blood magic, is not that blood magic itself is evil, just that Andraste said so "BLOOD MAGIC IS EVIL!", Merrill says that blood magic was normal for her ancestors and I think in Tevinter they also use that.

The Catholic Church analogy isn't a very good one.  Without trying to bring in more politics and religion than necessary: for one, the Catholic Church does not say homosexuality is a sin.  In fact, they acknowledge that it isn't a choice and that homosexuals should not be treated any differently than regular people.  What they do say is sinful are homosexual acts.  Again, not because it is an abomination or against nature in of itself, but because any sexual acts outside marriage that aren't inherently for the purpose of reproduction is sinful.  Technically, anything that isn't run-of-the mill straight sex sans condom is sodomy. 

Thus, if this were a perfect analogy, the chantry would be saying that being a blood mage is alright so long as you don't actually perform any blood magic, which isn't the case.  As for Tevinter, they aren't exactly the best poster boys/girls for a 'good' outlook on blood magic, are they?  And Merill was rather... lacksadaisical with her use of blood magic as shown by what happened with Keeper Marethari and the demon.

Alex1412 wrote...
I myself prefer blood magic over the "normal" one fueled by lyrium (I don't think that sh** is healthy), blood magic is fueled by one's life and is actually stronger, however like others, I do agree that that causes problems, you know what they say right? Power corrupts... or a demon.

This, I think, is the strongest argument against it.  It unleashes such unimaginable power on the mortal plane that many (and probably most, even with the Dalish use of it) who attempt to use it are corrupted (and not necessarily by becoming an abomination, more generally as 'losing their humanity').  I have similar issues with Entropic magic, though that doesn't tend to lead to such catastrophes as blood magic does.  It's one of those things that even if you can use it safely, nobody will trust you.  If someone claimed to have knowledge about how to construct nuclear weapons at home and said that they could be trusted with it, I certainly wouldn't.  You could be in perfect control of it, but you can never prove that to them, since somebody who couldn't control it would lie.

So, no, tools aren't evil; the people are.  But, blood magic lends itself to 'evil' people much more than other types of magic.  It's not inherently bad, but, being a person that tries to judge by intent and not by action, I think that it finds itself being used for rather disagreeable purposes most of the time.  The intent behind their use is generally 'bad'.  I'm talking out of the context of the regular battles we see in the game.  I'm talking about the big uses of it; by magisters and the like.  Basically, I think of blood magic as a WMD.  A tool, but one that can have such terrible effects that nobody should be trusted with it.

I prefer playing as mages, but I can never bring myself to actually use blood magic, and generally avoid some of the psychological entropic spells.

Modifié par JBDXB, 25 août 2013 - 10:49 .

[Dermain]

ScarMK wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

But is the joining really blood magic? It requires lyrium surely, and blood without a doubt, but is it blood magic really? If anything it's just getting tainted without dying immediately, and then at that I'd say it's like alchemy instead.

According to Finn, if a spell doesn't draw power from blood it's *technically* not blood magic.

I believe he says that such a spell is a "gray area", and that it should not be mentioned to any templars. 

[Elhanan]

I did not think so initially, but have since altered my perspective due to the bloodletting itself; have not been a fan of such even back in my PnP days with some rule sets.

And at best, it is foolish to consort with demons and invite them to be so close to taking possession. After all, the Harrowing indicates how dangerous and alluring such alliances can be.

[draken-heart]

There seems to be a normal consensus that Blood magic can be used for evil, but that it is not necessarily evil in and of itself.

Chantry wants to control people and making Blood magic look evil is the way to control mages into using the schools they want them to use.

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I consider my MageWaren a good blood mage. Destroyed the Anvil, saved Conner, made sure my companions were treated well.

In battle I never use blood sacrifice, only blood wound and control on enemies.

[DPSSOC]

Short answer yes. Serrated blades, hollow point bullets, and mustard gas are all tools but their use is generally considered morally repugnant, because they cause excessive and/or unnecessary harm in accomplishing what they do. Blood magic is much the same in my eyes because even in a best case scenario where you use your own blood without intent to hurt anyone you've done unnecessary harm to pull it off.

Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Well without blood magic the world would have been completely consumed by the Blight.... so that one really good thing.

And please don't try and retort by saying blood magic caused the Blight because we know the Chantry story is a lie because the city was already tainted before the Magisters go there.

[Shadow Fox]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Well without blood magic the world would have been completely consumed by the Blight.... so that one really good thing.

And please don't try and retort by saying blood magic caused the Blight because we know the Chantry story is a lie because the city was already tainted before the Magisters go there.

Except the Magisters did become the first darkspawn and spread the taint to Thedas...

[TuringPoint]

Up to a point... blood magic is just a tool. It enables moral quandaries that would not exist without blood magic. As long as it exists, people will use it. That in itself does not make it morally neutral, however.   Not in my "humble" opinion.

The only thing that would make blood magic tainted is if it has inherent negative consequences. Certain consequences seem to be inherent, such as a higher risk of possession by demons, or draining the life source of other beings, usually painfully. It's also worth considering that blood magic is frequently used by mages in extreme situations, which tends to lead them towards demonic possession even without blood magic, so who knows? I believe that would depend on the mage to varying degrees.

It may be worth considering that without people AND the tools they use, whether psychological, physical, or magical, there is no moral system inherent to the world.

Regardless of whether the tool or the person acts, the judgements on right and wrong are made by human consciousness. You can consider everything equally grey, and thus justify everything and nothing, or you can place moral value on events and people with some experience. I am inclined toward doing the latter when I can, but basic facts and reality of life must be accepted in order to be improved, altered, or ordered according to morality.

To bring this back to the game, any sort of unknown or forbidden magic has risks, and with magic in the Dragon Age verse, that means demons or spirits. People frequently don't differentiate. We see this with Justice/Anders, who may not be much different from any Abomination. Also, with Wynne. Any Spirit Healer is... seemingly, probably possessed in a similar way, but the emotion possessing them - the spirit of that emotion - is essentially ordered and kind.

While demonic possession is an extension of the mage's actions, once they are possessed they are seemingly out of their own control, and pulled or energized by increasingly perverse actions. Why is that? It's something we don't understand yet.  There is no real-world analogy for it.  It is a tool that, somehow, seems to possess the person.

Maybe if a world with magic becomes civilized, it will have less and less iniquity from magic?  Perhaps the elves found that somehow, but humanity "corrupted" this system that was balanced and working just fine.

Modifié par Alocormin, 26 août 2013 - 04:09 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

Short answer yes. Serrated blades, hollow point bullets, and mustard gas are all tools but their use is generally considered morally repugnant, because they cause excessive and/or unnecessary harm in accomplishing what they do. Blood magic is much the same in my eyes because even in a best case scenario where you use your own blood without intent to hurt anyone you've done unnecessary harm to pull it off.

I am given to understand that cops are issued hollow rounds due to the fact that they don't exit the victim and hurt innocents.

Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.

That doesn't follow. One can use one's own blood without viewing others as just batteries.

[Obrusnine]

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.