348 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Well without blood magic the world would have been completely consumed by the Blight.... so that one really good thing.

And please don't try and retort by saying blood magic caused the Blight because we know the Chantry story is a lie because the city was already tainted before the Magisters go there.

Except the Magisters did become the first darkspawn and spread the taint to Thedas...

We know that they became darkspawn but we don't know that they were the first or that they were the ones that spread it. Didn't ever seem strange to you that the darkspawn first appeared in the deep roads? Sort of strange seeing as the Magisters live on the surface yet the darkspawn were only seen in the deep roads. Odd.

I say the Dwarves created the darkspawn when they found Red Lyrium and started to mess around with it. That would explain why the Darkspawn appeared in the deep roads first.

[DPSSOC]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Short answer yes. Serrated blades, hollow point bullets, and mustard gas are all tools but their use is generally considered morally repugnant, because they cause excessive and/or unnecessary harm in accomplishing what they do. Blood magic is much the same in my eyes because even in a best case scenario where you use your own blood without intent to hurt anyone you've done unnecessary harm to pull it off.

I am given to understand that cops are issued hollow rounds due to the fact that they don't exit the victim and hurt innocents.

Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, could have swore it was hollow point, the round is designed to enter, mushroom, and make a particularly nasty exit wound.  Will look into it.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.

That doesn't follow. One can use one's own blood without viewing others as just batteries.

But that can only take you so far, and by the time you reach that limit what's borrowing a little blood from a willing volunteer, then a little more, and a little more, then what's a life from a willing volunteer to go even further.  Alternatively remarkably few people put their well being as lower than others, so if you're willing to harm yourself for power odds are you're not going to have many qualms harming others.  It's like I say to coworkers, I'm not concerned with my own health and safety what makes you think I care about yours.

[leaguer of one]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

One thing I hear people say is blood magic is evil because it can control minds or summon demons,however would'nt be fair to say that blood magic isn't evil just the person who uses it for bad things?Blood magic can be used for good and I don't really see the point in demonizing something that is a tool at best.

The problem with blood magic is that it's a shortcut, a shortcut that holds no obvious neccessary advantages.  Because it's a shortcut, it attracts people who are impatient or desperate, and that's not a good formula where demons are involved.  It's also possibly addictive, or rather the power it grants is addictive.  Given that there is no obvious reason it's *needed* above and beyond normal magic, it seems like filling a balloon with hydrogen when helium will do just fine.  And the hydrogen balloon is probably being held by either a desperate child or a pyromaniac. That doesn't do a lot to persuade me in favor of its use.  

I see it more like the ak-47 of the magic world. Reguardless, both our examples come to the same conclusion.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Obrusnine wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.

So how did creating the Grey Wardens turn out bad?

[Dermain]

[quote]Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.[/quote]

That doesn't follow. One can use one's own blood without viewing others as just batteries.

[/quote]

Technically they could also use the blood of people already wounded in a battle. Sadly, we never get to do that in any of the games.

[leaguer of one]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Obrusnine wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.

So how did creating the Grey Wardens turn out bad?

Blood magic with out regulation alway turn out bad and all cases end with harm or death.

[leaguer of one]

Myrkale wrote...



Technically they could also use the blood of people already wounded in a battle. Sadly, we never get to do that in any of the games.

Reavers do that.

Modifié par leaguer of one, 27 août 2013 - 01:25 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

leaguer of one wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Obrusnine wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.

So how did creating the Grey Wardens turn out bad?

Blood magic with out regulation alway turn out bad and all cases end with harm or death.

I was unaware that you were personally aware of every single instance of unregulated blood magic ever to have taken place within the lore of Dragon Age, by all means I retract my false claims.

Course you know there's the Warden that uses unregulated blood magic to save the world from the Blight... and all the other blood mage Wardens who have done the same exact thing for centuries.... No let's not bring evidence to this argument.

[leaguer of one]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Obrusnine wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.

So how did creating the Grey Wardens turn out bad?

Blood magic with out regulation alway turn out bad and all cases end with harm or death.

I was unaware that you were personally aware of every single instance of unregulated blood magic ever to have taken place within the lore of Dragon Age, by all means I retract my false claims.

Course you know there's the Warden that uses unregulated blood magic to save the world from the Blight... and all the other blood mage Wardens who have done the same exact thing for centuries.... No let's not bring evidence to this argument.

But Warden do use regulated blood magic to end blights. They themselves regulate the blood magic. They are an order are alowed legaly to use blood magic.
Added, every warden is doomed to die, hence the " end with harm or death" part.

[Thomas Andresen]

Karlone123 wrote...

Isn't it very corrupting to the user?

No more than any other form of power, proportionally speaking. The greater the power, the more easily it corrupts you, magic or no.

What makes blood magic dangerous in that regard is the consequences if someone does get corrupted.

In my opinion, it's a whole conversation on power versus responsibility. Some people may be fit to hold that power, but certainly others are more easily corrupted.

[BlueMagitek]

Thomas Andresen wrote...

Karlone123 wrote...

Isn't it very corrupting to the user?

No more than any other form of power, proportionally speaking. The greater the power, the more easily it corrupts you, magic or no.

What makes blood magic dangerous in that regard is the consequences if someone does get corrupted.

In my opinion, it's a whole conversation on power versus responsibility. Some people may be fit to hold that power, but certainly others are more easily corrupted.

There's also the tidbit that the more evily you get the blood for your magic, the more potent your magic is!  So while you can cut yourself or willing allies quickly and as painlessly as possible, the guy cutting other people with a rusty spork is always several steps ahead powerwise.

[In Exile]

leaguer of one wrote...

But Warden do use regulated blood magic to end blights. They themselves regulate the blood magic. They are an order are alowed legaly to use blood magic.
Added, every warden is doomed to die, hence the " end with harm or death" part.

The Wardens use blood magic to the same extent that the Chantry sanctioned Circles do (what do you think a phylactery is?), so I'm not sure this is a good parallel. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.

That doesn't follow. One can use one's own blood without viewing others as just batteries.

But that can only take you so far, and by the time you reach that limit what's borrowing a little blood from a willing volunteer, then a little more, and a little more, then what's a life from a willing volunteer to go even further.  Alternatively remarkably few people put their well being as lower than others, so if you're willing to harm yourself for power odds are you're not going to have many qualms harming others.  It's like I say to coworkers, I'm not concerned with my own health and safety what makes you think I care about yours.

Okay, but that's not the same as the initial steps being bad. The fact that a mage might waste the life of a willing volunteer doesn't mean it was wrong to use the blood of another. The first act might be a worthwhile thing. And just because you later used others to spare yourself pain doesn't mean it was wrong to use your own blood previously.

[leaguer of one]

In Exile wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

But Warden do use regulated blood magic to end blights. They themselves regulate the blood magic. They are an order are alowed legaly to use blood magic.
Added, every warden is doomed to die, hence the " end with harm or death" part.

The Wardens use blood magic to the same extent that the Chantry sanctioned Circles do (what do you think a phylactery is?), so I'm not sure this is a good parallel. 

They use it more so but it's never out of control.

[Alejandrawrr]

Only read the first two pages, so apologies if someone made this point, but I don't see the mind control aspect as inherently evil. In some comic settings like X-Men, some of the main protagonists pretty much have that as their general forte. The team's "Chick" Jean Grey has been shown as the paragon of virtue throughout her time on the team, as well as "The Mentor/Big Good" Professor X. IIRC they did have a "code" of mind reading/control which pretty forbids them from targeting someone without their consent. Considering they are squeaky clean superheroes while our guys are in less scrupulous organizations tasked with ending the blight/doing whatever Hawke did/resolving the mage-templar war and the veil tear at all costs, I don't think it would be hugely damning if their moral standards were lowered just a bit.

Same thing with the other BM spells. I remember on one of my DA2 playthroughs playing a good guy as a blood mage, and from an RP perspective simply avoided the blood sacrifice spell completely. The other damage dealing spells are no more inherently evil than roasting your opponents alive in flames or zapping their eyeballs out with electricity.

Though now that I think on it (thought I was done with the X-Men references ) even Blood Sacrifice on a willing participant reminds me a bit of Rogue occasionally draining her teammates for their abilities. It's been years since I read one of the books or seen TAS, but I remember it having a weakening/dizzying effect on them, almost killing someone when her powers first manifested. I also remember at least one of her teammates volunteering to let her do it to them, thinking Wolvie. A low level Blood Sacrifice probably isn't much worse.

So I personally don't see blood magic as inherently evil. Would  be wary around a known blood mage claiming to be a good guy? Sure, but I'd have been just as wary around Zevran, Morrigan, Shale, and a few more possible companions the first time around as well. That being said, the methods of acquiring blood magic probably are mostly evil. As I remember there were two ways of gaining the BM specialization in DA:O: Accepting the demon's offer for a young boy's soul, or purchasing the manual in Awakenings. The latter, I always saw as gameplay-story segregation, and the former is pretty reprehensible unless you find the tiny loophole, intimidating the Desire Demon to learn the specialization and not sell the boy. Considering that would require the mage in question to be powerful enough that they could intimidate the demon to back off, power-hungry(+stupid) enough to want to learn a form of magic they've been indoctrinated to believe is evil their whole life, yet compassionate(+smart) enough that they would find some balance instead of saying "'kay, I learned what I needed, you can have him"... I don't find it likely that there would be a many at all who could find a method of learning the specialization without selling their own soul or someone else's to a demon. The only way around that would be if Spirits could teach it.

[Dermain]

leaguer of one wrote...

Myrkale wrote...



Technically they could also use the blood of people already wounded in a battle. Sadly, we never get to do that in any of the games.

Reavers do that.

Reavers do that, but they're not really blood mages. Through gameplay bloodmages are not able to use the blood of their enemies to fuel their spells, they're only able to use their own, and their allies blood to heal themselves.

leaguer of one wrote...

Added, every warden is doomed to die, hence the " end with harm or death" part.

Except that the warden doesn't die because of using blood magic, the warden would die from the taint. They're completely unrelated.

Modifié par Myrkale, 27 août 2013 - 04:45 .

[dragonflight288]

Myrkale wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Myrkale wrote...



Technically they could also use the blood of people already wounded in a battle. Sadly, we never get to do that in any of the games.

Reavers do that.

Reavers do that, but they're not really blood mages. Through gameplay bloodmages are not able to use the blood of their enemies to fuel their spells, they're only able to use their own, and their allies blood to heal themselves.

Which is exactly what the Chantry describes as blood magic. Heck, they call anatomy studies blood magic. Any magical ritual that uses blood as a component, even if it doesn't power the spell, is considered blood magic by the Chantry (Finn.)

Evangeline in Asunder pretty much states that the Chantry's phylacteries are a form of blood magic in and of itself.

leaguer of one wrote...

Added, every warden is doomed to die, hence the " end with harm or death" part.

Except that the warden doesn't die because of using blood magic, the warden would die from the taint. They're completely unrelated.

Darkspawn blood. Archdemon blood in the joining. Used as components. blood magic as far as the chantry's concerned.

[Uccio]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

According to WoT, blood magic draws on the pain inflicted to power it. The more pain inflicted, the more powerful the things you can do with it.

So it's not blood magic it is nerve magic! 

Kind of lame attemp to make it 'teh EVIL' magic.

[Thomas Andresen]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Thomas Andresen wrote...

No more than any other form of power, proportionally speaking. The greater the power, the more easily it corrupts you, magic or no.

What makes blood magic dangerous in that regard is the consequences if someone does get corrupted.

In my opinion, it's a whole conversation on power versus responsibility. Some people may be fit to hold that power, but certainly others are more easily corrupted.

There's also the tidbit that the more evily you get the blood for your magic, the more potent your magic is!

You can say with absolute certainty that it is not a matter of the amount of blood?

That you're limited in potential due to only using your own blood is part of the responsibility question. That you can gain more by using the power irresponsibly is not a suitable excuse for doing so.

As a side note, that the phylacteries were borderline blood magic was pretty obvious already in Origins.

[elfdwarf]

power corrupt peoples, normal and magical but power can be use in uncorrupt way even blood magic can do this.

[Lotion Soronarr]

A tool cannot be evil or good. It is by definition amoral.

HOWEVER.

Anything that is extreemly tempting and prone to abuse is by definition corrupting.


So Blood Magic is kinda like heavy drugs. Not "evil", but best to stay far away from it.

[RedWulfi]

A regular mage who does not use blood magic can use their magic for evil. Same as a none mage.

[DPSSOC]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not to mention the slippery slope anyone using blood magic is walking. If blood magic is just a tool then blood is just a power source and people are just batteries.

That doesn't follow. One can use one's own blood without viewing others as just batteries.

But that can only take you so far, and by the time you reach that limit what's borrowing a little blood from a willing volunteer, then a little more, and a little more, then what's a life from a willing volunteer to go even further.  Alternatively remarkably few people put their well being as lower than others, so if you're willing to harm yourself for power odds are you're not going to have many qualms harming others.  It's like I say to coworkers, I'm not concerned with my own health and safety what makes you think I care about yours.

Okay, but that's not the same as the initial steps being bad. The fact that a mage might waste the life of a willing volunteer doesn't mean it was wrong to use the blood of another. The first act might be a worthwhile thing. And just because you later used others to spare yourself pain doesn't mean it was wrong to use your own blood previously.

And that's the slope.  Blood magic is about power, either the power to do more than you can without assistance or even with lyrium or the power to perform feats you just can't otherwise (mind control).  There are no shortage of excuses to need more power and as you go further down this particular path to power it becomes easy to justify what you have to do to acquire it.

Ultimately blood magic requires people to suffer to fuel it, and it has never been hard for people to justify others suffering for our benefit.

[Obrusnine]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Obrusnine wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from the past 2 Dragon Age games.

Blood Magic never turns out well.

So how did creating the Grey Wardens turn out bad?

Blood magic with out regulation alway turn out bad and all cases end with harm or death.

I was unaware that you were personally aware of every single instance of unregulated blood magic ever to have taken place within the lore of Dragon Age, by all means I retract my false claims.

Course you know there's the Warden that uses unregulated blood magic to save the world from the Blight... and all the other blood mage Wardens who have done the same exact thing for centuries.... No let's not bring evidence to this argument.

Even regulated blood magic regularly turns out poorly.

Just look at Soldier's Peak.

Either way considering magic is so powerful and there are so many other avenues of magic to pursue, the average mage wouldn't need to experience the dangers associated with using blood magic. It's pointless risk. And meanwhile, using blood magic in a moment of desperation usually ends up with the mage being possessed.

Blood Magic is an unnecessary risk that puts others in harms way and is usually used due to selfishness. The Chantry may be wrong about a lot of things, but their practices against the use of Blood Magic is definitely one I support. When Mage's already have so much power granted to them, there's no real point to taking the risk of consorting with demon's or causing suffering merely for a moment of power.

Mage's that would even resort to Blood Magic aren't usually the sort that actually have the humility or respect to wield it.

Modifié par Obrusnine, 28 août 2013 - 11:05 .