348 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Blood magic is nothing but an alteration of blood into a magical fuel nothing more nothing less. If you only use your blood or if the blood you use is from a willing subject then there's no inherent evil in its use.

If you use Blood magic to kill someone they aren't more dead then if you had stabbed them with a sword. Dead is dead either by blood magic or pointy stick.

Can Blood Magic be used for evil of course it can but so can any other kind of power. Look at all the Exalted Marches that have been waged over the years I think its safe to say that more people have been harmed and killed by the sword and arrow then by magic.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Although, it is illogical to think that there is no absolute truth.

I don't think he said that. I think all he said was that you hadn't found it.

Edit: It would be an even greater good if one didn't have to give blood or organs and still be able to save those lives that need it, but we don't seem to be there yet.

Absolutely, but except insofar as we can get closer to that point, that good is currently moot.

The first part was just a thought being thrown in, not saying the previous poster opposed that thought.

As for the second part, if the cutting people open and taking their organs and blood was good, then why bother developing new tech to avoid it if it is good? The donating is good, the saving a life is good, but doing bodily harm doesn't need to be a good just because it is necessary to accomplish the other tasks which can be viewed as more important than minor pain. Edit: So, we can always strive to do better.

You seem to classify actions as good or evil more frequently than I do. Not being evil doesn't make an action good, and not being good doesn't make an action evil. There can be middle ground.

[Daerog]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You seem to classify actions as good or evil more frequently than I do. Not being evil doesn't make an action good, and not being good doesn't make an action evil. There can be middle ground.

Okay, some people believe that, I kinda do to an extent, but why would one want their actions to just be in the middle on this supposed scale? Wouldn't one wish to strive to go fully good? Ya, stuff that is considered gray has to be done and I don't wag my finger at those that do gray things or minor evil acts, but I don't see why people should be satisfied with it.

Blood magic, can do great things, is kind of on the gray side, sure. Why be content with gray when you can just go with creation spells to save a life if you can? If one has to resort to blood magic, okay I can see that arguably justifiable, but one should strive to be stronger and not have to resort to any harm.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You seem to classify actions as good or evil more frequently than I do. Not being evil doesn't make an action good, and not being good doesn't make an action evil. There can be middle ground.

Okay, some people believe that, I kinda do to an extent, but why would one want their actions to just be in the middle on this supposed scale? Wouldn't one wish to strive to go fully good? Ya, stuff that is considered gray has to be done and I don't wag my finger at those that do gray things or minor evil acts, but I don't see why people should be satisfied with it.

Where possible, yes. But at least insofar as organ transplants are concerned, the grey is all we have at the moment. It'd be great to do better, but we can't yet.

Blood magic, can do great things, is kind of on the gray side, sure. Why be content with gray when you can just go with creation spells to save a life if you can? If one has to resort to blood magic, okay I can see that arguably justifiable, but one should strive to be stronger and not have to resort to any harm.

Not only is that impractical in a fight, but blood magic does increase the power of creation magic to places it otherwise apparently can't go.

[Daerog]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not only is that impractical in a fight, but blood magic does increase the power of creation magic to places it otherwise apparently can't go.

Exactly. If one can't do better and the good greatly outweighs the evil in the mind of the user, then I won't condemn the user. Maybe a little criticism, asking if the user can just practice and get better at creation so not having to resort to blood magic in the future. It's idealistic, but it's the striving that counts.

If a mage must defend themselves and can only resort to blood magic to defend against a fatally aggressive Templar, I think it can be justified, but the mage is taking a great risk of possession and such (as well as taking on that temptation which has been discussed earlier).

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Not only is that impractical in a fight, but blood magic does increase the power of creation magic to places it otherwise apparently can't go.

If a mage must defend themselves and can only resort to blood magic to defend against a fatally aggressive Templar, I think it can be justified, but the mage is taking a great risk of possession and such (as well as taking on that temptation which has been discussed earlier).

As I've previously mentioned, I don't recall seeing any previous evidence of a strong coorelation between blood magic and possession. Demonic magic and possession are linked, you'd have to live in a cave not to know that. But I can't think of a blood mage who was ever possessed without drawing on a demon first.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 août 2013 - 03:25 .

[Daerog]

Well, I think it is mostly from the World of Thedas book saying that blood magic is stronger with pain and suffering, and initially pain and suffering is caused by blood magic, and the veil thins with great amounts of pain and suffering with magic.

While it may not be a huge leap in the risk, it is moreso than not doing blood magic. Maybe a .00000000000000000000000001% increase. Minor risk to save your life, sure.


Edit: However, I did say "great risk," so that has no evidence to back up....

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 30 août 2013 - 03:28 .

[DarthLaxian]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood magic is a corrupting thing. Not in the Saurons ring kinda way, but in a more realistic one - ultimate temptation, countless opportunities for abuse.

Sooner or later, one will succumb. Just like no one can resist torture forever and at some point will break, no one can resist temptation forever.

of course you can - your argument is like saying every gun owner is tempted to grab his gun and shoot people that anger them and sooner or later they will snap, but the number are against you (even in the US were almost every household has at least one gun)

so no, yes temptation is there (need i quote Franklin on that? - What i want to say: It's a character thing, if you are a deeply flawed character (meaning you crave power, want to dominate/controll people etc.) then yeah, blood-magic is something you should not touch as you will use it on other people (without them threatening you or it being a live and death situation), but if you are a noble soul and want to help people (or need some extra power to say fight darkspawn/templars/other mages etc.) then it is just a tool for you (hell, by your argument, you could not trust most people with a hammer, as they will bash in other peoples skulls with it....))

and no, it is not corrupting on itself, it only corrupts you, if you let it

as for it leading to possession - no, demon-summoning does (if the mage is not very carefull, as that mage that caught and imprisoned "kitty" was not possessed for example - neither was Avernus, also he lost control and tore the veil (but that was probably because he summoned to many demons too fast!))

IMHO blood-magic should be taught in "mage-school" (my alternative to the circles - each mage needs to attend schoold to learn to controll and harness his power, school is compulsory and specially trained mages supervise the training (and catch rogues!) - no templars or chantry involved at all!) with all its risks and benefits explained and people cautioned against using it for fun etc. (like teaching people to use a gun)

greetings LAX
ps: yes, if all mages know blood-magic, then a blood-mage will not have as much of an advantage anymore (even more if his hunters also know it - unlike the templars that are somewhat helpless against it, as smite etc. does not work well against it!) - like with guns, if everyone has them, outlaws do not have much of an advantage (example: if in that cinema shooting (in the US) a few year back everyone in that cinema would have been armed, i guess the shooter would have gotten a lot less rounds out before turning into a pin cushion himself!)

[Daerog]

While teaching mages the dangers of blood magic while instructing them on it may be great for mages, it will be horrifying for everyone else as no one else can properly defend against it. It's like only allowing some citizens to carry around military weapons and drive tanks (with a proper tank license, of course!) and only allowing all other citizens to have potato guns. May cause less stress in the society to only let those privileged citizens to just have standard handguns and everyone else have potato guns.

Edit: It was a good counter to the temptation argument, imo.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 30 août 2013 - 03:38 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

DarthLaxian wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Blood magic is a corrupting thing. Not in the Saurons ring kinda way, but in a more realistic one - ultimate temptation, countless opportunities for abuse.

Sooner or later, one will succumb. Just like no one can resist torture forever and at some point will break, no one can resist temptation forever.

of course you can - your argument is like saying every gun owner is tempted to grab his gun and shoot people that anger them and sooner or later they will snap, but the number are against you (even in the US were almost every household has at least one gun)

No, it's not.

Don't tell me you are honestly comparing a pistol to mind control. Mind control is INFINITELY more dangerous, subtle and abusive. And thus also more tempting.

A pistol has clear limitations. A pistol is obvious and loud. You cannot use when you want. You cannot solve most problems with it either. The consequences are clear, you can be caught easily.

But mind control.... You can always use it. Ant any time. For any purpose. And no one will ever know. You can get a girl to love you, a person to forget you blundered, an opponent to admit defeat, etc, etc..
Everywhere you go, whatever you do - 24/7 there are opportunitites to use it and the tempation is ever-present.

That is too much to give anyone, even if there weren't any other factors that could influence their mood/behavior - from alchocol/drugs, lack of sleep, to weather to actions of other people.

so no, yes temptation is there (need i quote Franklin on that? - What i want to say: It's a character thing, if you are a deeply flawed character  then yeah, blood-magic is something you should not touch as you will use it on other people, but if you are a noble soul and want to help people then it is just a tool for you

All humans are flawed. Period.
Those that think they can be trusted with any kind of power and they will never fall to temptation are exactly those you don't want to give that power too. They have already fallen.

It's a big flaw when people generaly think of simple temptations on a good day. But you're not gonna have a good day every day, will you? Life is a b***. You're gonna have horrible day. There are so many factors, both internal and external that can influence a persons mind and mood, that thinking your willpower and resolve are always going to be at 100% is sheer folly.

The love of my life cheated on me and I'm drunk. But nooo.. You can trust me with mind control powers. I would NEVER abuse them. Ever....

ps: yes, if all mages know blood-magic, then a blood-mage will not have as much of an advantage anymore (even more if his hunters also know it - unlike the templars that are somewhat helpless against it, as smite etc. does not work well against it!) - like with guns, if everyone has them, outlaws do not have much of an advantage (example: if in that cinema shooting (in the US) a few year back everyone in that cinema would have been armed, i guess the shooter would have gotten a lot less rounds out before turning into a pin cushion himself!)

Yes, give everyone mind-control and nukes. THAT will work out well.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

That's assuming the person even knows mind control. Notwithstanding that I can see there being people who can be trained to use these abilities without giving into them (though they would have to be carefully vetted for years,) I don't think that having the power to use your own blood as fuel for magic automatically means you can use mind control. So, notwithstanding that I've been defending it, its not even central to my point that blood magic can be non-evil.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Notwithstanding that I can see there being people who can be trained to use these abilities without giving into them

So you say...because you never had those powers and never will, and thus will never be tempted.
It's so easy to say you're not tempted in that case...it's so easy to think that.

But I can't see it.
The existence of those uncorrutable, unbreakable perfect people is the greatest fantasy as far as I'm concerned.

[PantheraOnca]

Re: saccing that dude to alter the course of/eliminate a hurricane:

If you've got a voluntary 'blood tax' system going on, you could have a large supply of blood to power such spells without killing anyone.

Recently read Dune, and you could have a kind of "his water belongs to the tribe" thing for (naturally) dead citizens' blood or blood lost via medical treatment.

Now, obviously this is able to be abused, but that's what Templar are for.

Also, I don't know how sanitary Thedas hospitals are(n't).

[DKJaigen]

Anybody that has been burdened with the responsibility of their power will know that abuse of power or corruption is an extremely self destructive path that will get you destroyed. But you need to give power to people regardless. take for example the police. you need to give them a considerable amount of powers and privileges to protect the common population.

Their always will be bloodmages and i don't doubt for a second that their are plenty of them out their outside of chantry control because the templars are not capable of dealing with them. as the saying goes do not bring a knife to gunfight the same applies here. do not bring templar to a bloodmage but another bloodmage.

[brushyourteeth]

This thread is a trap. But I'll give my two cents quickly and then get out.

Regardless of your intentions, it is extremely irresponsible to use your magic in a way that makes it more likely that you will become possessed.

Not to even mention the devs' assertions that blood magic will always corrupt its wielder over time.

[Cantina]

I tend to view Blood Magic as a source of evil.

While this type of magic may start out as something harmless eventually the need for more power becomes far too tempting. The idea of controling someone through the use of Blood Magic and using their blood to fuel your magic is evil. On top of that, gaining such power is usually a result of consorting with a demon or a demon offering the magic. To me Blood Magic is sign of weakness and corruption.

However, the funny thing is out of all this is: The Chantry claims Blood Magic is a source of evil, yet Templars use Blood Magic to hunt down Mages who have escaped the Circle. Granted a grey area, but still rather hypocritical of the Chantry.

My husband is always teasing me, "Play a Blood Mage!" I'm like"Oh, hell no!" LOL!

[DarthLaxian]

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...

While teaching mages the dangers of blood magic while instructing them on it may be great for mages, it will be horrifying for everyone else as no one else can properly defend against it. It's like only allowing some citizens to carry around military weapons and drive tanks (with a proper tank license, of course!) and only allowing all other citizens to have potato guns. May cause less stress in the society to only let those privileged citizens to just have standard handguns and everyone else have potato guns.

Edit: It was a good counter to the temptation argument, imo.

no it is like "allowing" citizens to be 2 meters tall and very strong, while others will - even if they train night and day - never be that strong...wait, we already have that (nature does that you know?) and no one is demanding we lock up tall physically strong people (at least i don't think so), also they could kill loads of smaller people with their hands alone (without using any weapons)

it is discrimination (racism, too IMHO) if you segregate people just because they have amazing gifts (X-Men anyone? - Sorry to say, that in that franchise i can understand Magneto (he is like a mage cornered, he uses his powers because people (mundanes without powers) have hurt him in the past and because he does not want a future similar to what we already have in DA - meaning certain people (mutants - being in a way like mages in DA) are forced to register (maybe even with say a barcode tatooed onto them!), segregated (like blacks were in the past (and mages were in DA), which is wrong (anyone disagreeing with that?)) and ultimately locked up or stripped of their powers (that "cure" - also that does not seem as permanent as tranquility and not as bad in it's side effects (tranquility strips the capability of dreaming and your emotions from you))!) and it is WRONG (no matter what you argue - protection of the public etc. (that is like justifying locking up people with japanese ancestors back in WW2 or treating people who like communism badly in the McCarthy-Era!)

It is a crime against Humanity (and to support it is ultimately wrong IMHO)

and i said:

let mages enforce themselves, if all of them know blood-magic (and i am sure, like in real world populations: outlaws are a tiny minority!), then there is no problem (outlaw blood-mages get killed by law abiding mages!)

greetings LAX
ps: normal citizens can learn to fight magic (templar skills and magic can be dodged (hell, Isabela/Zevran/Leliana etc. probably doe not fear even the mightiest Tevinter magister - after all, a blade cuts off even their heads)) and IMHO the run of the mill citizen does not have much to fear from a blood-mage (only those in power attract them - at least for mind-controll stuff)

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 30 août 2013 - 03:57 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

PantheraOnca wrote...

Re: saccing that dude to alter the course of/eliminate a hurricane:

If you've got a voluntary 'blood tax' system going on, you could have a large supply of blood to power such spells without killing anyone.

Recently read Dune, and you could have a kind of "his water belongs to the tribe" thing for (naturally) dead citizens' blood or blood lost via medical treatment.

Now, obviously this is able to be abused, but that's what Templar are for.

Also, I don't know how sanitary Thedas hospitals are(n't).

Blood itself is not the power. Blood is only the catalyst. Blood Magic draws it power literally from pain, suffering death and destruction. The name might be a little misguiding, but after all, since blood is the visible part of this kind of magic, it is understandable why the name stuck.

[EmperorSahlertz]

DKJaigen wrote...

Anybody that has been burdened with the responsibility of their power will know that abuse of power or corruption is an extremely self destructive path that will get you destroyed. But you need to give power to people regardless. take for example the police. you need to give them a considerable amount of powers and privileges to protect the common population.

Their always will be bloodmages and i don't doubt for a second that their are plenty of them out their outside of chantry control because the templars are not capable of dealing with them. as the saying goes do not bring a knife to gunfight the same applies here. do not bring templar to a bloodmage but another bloodmage.

Templars can handle blood mages just fine. They ahve been doing so for the past 900 years. The only problem they face against a blood mage, that they don't against a common mage, is that they can't shut the mage off from his mana. Or rather that shutting the mage off from his mana, doesn't prevent him from casting spells. Templars are however still trained for, and fully capable off, taking out blood mages. They just have to work harder at it, than with a normal mage.

[Knight_Quack]

To me blood magic is pure evil, it is what it is. Sure you can "help" others with said power, but that doesn't make it good. And I don't buy that you can control it, how do you know that the willpower you have is enough to resist the influence of a demon?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Notwithstanding that I can see there being people who can be trained to use these abilities without giving into them

So you say...because you never had those powers and never will, and thus will never be tempted.
It's so easy to say you're not tempted in that case...it's so easy to think that.

But I can't see it.
The existence of those uncorrutable, unbreakable perfect people is the greatest fantasy as far as I'm concerned.

Way to ignore the meat of my post.

[Navasha]

This is a moral question and as such it is highly dependent upon each persons own viewpoint.

Would you believe torture can be used for a good purpose? Or is its use always wrong even if someone used it only on evil people to save innocent lives?

For me blood magic is much the same. Sure you can use it for a good purpose, but that doesn't necessarily mean its a 'good' tool.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

brushyourteeth wrote...

This thread is a trap. But I'll give my two cents quickly and then get out.y ll

Regardless of your intentions, it is extremely irresponsible to use your magic in a way that makes it more likely that you will become possessed.

Can you link to word on that from the devs? I haven't seen evidence that blood mages are more likely to become possessed. (Notice I said devs, not Codex. As if it wasn't already obvious enough the in-setting authorities are biased, I already linked Word Of Gaider that they're wrong about blood magic being innately corruptive.

Not to even mention the devs' assertions that blood magic will always corrupt its wielder over time.

I have Word Of Gaider that says something slightly different. Do you have a source?

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

brushyourteeth wrote...

This thread is a trap. But I'll give my two cents quickly and then get out.y ll

Regardless of your intentions, it is extremely irresponsible to use your magic in a way that makes it more likely that you will become possessed.

Can you link to word on that from the devs? I haven't seen evidence that blood mages are more likely to become possessed. (Notice I said devs, not Codex. As if it wasn't already obvious enough the in-setting authorities are biased, I already linked Word Of Gaider that they're wrong about blood magic being innately corruptive.

Not to even mention the devs' assertions that blood magic will always corrupt its wielder over time.

I have Word Of Gaider that says something slightly different. Do you have a source?

Good source.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I have Word Of Gaider that says something slightly different. Do you have a source?

Good source.

Thank you.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 30 août 2013 - 05:16 .