348 réponses à ce sujet

[Huge_Beaver]

Not if it's used against darkspawn and/or "evil" people.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I would like to point out that depending on the definition of "evil" the blood mage uses, this could lead to bad places.

[DKJaigen]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Blood magic is fueled on pain and suffering, usually that of others, and it's main offensive ability is to cause pain and suffering for others by attacking their blood and making it boil in their veins, or by controlling it directly and turning them into little more than blood sack filled puppets. That's not even going into the mind control aspects.

It would be rare, incredibly rare, for a person to not be evil while still using blood magic. And it isn't as if fiction hasn't explored the possibility of using evil powers for good before, http://tvtropes.org/...owersGoodPeople. Doesn't prove much of anything really, but it at least shows the basic idea that being a goood person using blood magic would follow.

And anyway, it's a constant battle of temptation against demons, your own greed and power trip, and the world around you. Weak willed people are bared from applying automatically.

I really couldnt care less about pain and suffering. your in combat so its your task to  inflict pain and suffering on your oppenents after all. And demons is just a name.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DKJaigen wrote...

And demons is just a name. 

That is not entirely true. Demons really are dangerous. And they're all malevolent, or else they wouldn't be demons. (It's literally down in the definition; the ones that aren't are called "spirits." Though even beings that are called spirits show some potential to be dangerous.)

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

And demons is just a name. 

That is not entirely true. Demons really are dangerous. And they're all malevolent, or else they wouldn't be demons. (It's literally down in the definition; the ones that aren't are called "spirits." Though even beings that are called spirits show some potential to be dangerous.)

Not completely true. All demons are spirits, and all spirits are denizens of the Fade. Some spirits represent various virtues like Justice, Valor, Faith, and so on. Other spirits represent vices like Desire, Anger, Pride, hunger and so on. The difference between a spirit and a demon is that the demons will take an interest in our world, and want to experience it for themselves, and that usually means possessing someone or something.

Heck, some codex entries make it clear that the more benevolent spirits are actually simply callous and don't really care about mortals at all, pitying them at best.

[DPSSOC]

DKJaigen wrote...
Anybody that has been burdened with the responsibility of their power will know that abuse of power or corruption is an extremely self destructive path that will get you destroyed.

 
And yet this knowledge has stopped absolutely nobody over the entire course of human history.  It's like saying people won't steal, or kill, or commit any other crime because they know that these actions are extremely self destructive.  It's only self destructive if you're caught and nobody ever believes they will.

DarthLaxian wrote...

DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
While teaching mages the dangers of blood magic while instructing them on it may be great for mages, it will be horrifying for everyone else as no one else can properly defend against it. It's like only allowing some citizens to carry around military weapons and drive tanks (with a proper tank license, of course!) and only allowing all other citizens to have potato guns. May cause less stress in the society to only let those privileged citizens to just have standard handguns and everyone else have potato guns.

Edit: It was a good counter to the temptation argument, imo.

no it is like "allowing" citizens to be 2 meters tall and very strong, while others will - even if they train night and day - never be that strong...wait, we already have that (nature does that you know?) and no one is demanding we lock up tall physically strong people (at least i don't think so), also they could kill loads of smaller people with their hands alone (without using any weapons)

That's magic in general.  Nobody is born a blood mage, it is a skill that must be learned, and nobody is demanding tall strong people be locked up because we have effective equalizers, weapons.  There are no such equalizers for mages (yet) in Thedas, no tool that makes fighting a mage any easier.  It takes years of training and drug use to even come close and it is mentioned in game that one Templar is not an even match for one mage, it's why they go out in groups.

DarthLaxian wrote...
let mages enforce themselves, if all of them know blood-magic (and i am sure, like in real world populations: outlaws are a tiny minority!), then there is no problem (outlaw blood-mages get killed by law abiding mages!)

As soon as the mages demonstrate they actually will that would be an option to consider, but we've seen multiple times now that they won't.

DKJaigen wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...
Blood magic is fueled on pain and suffering, usually that of others, and it's main offensive ability is to cause pain and suffering for others by attacking their blood and making it boil in their veins, or by controlling it directly and turning them into little more than blood sack filled puppets. That's not even going into the mind control aspects.

It would be rare, incredibly rare, for a person to not be evil while still using blood magic. And it isn't as if fiction hasn't explored the possibility of using evil powers for good before, http://tvtropes.org/...owersGoodPeople. Doesn't prove much of anything really, but it at least shows the basic idea that being a goood person using blood magic would follow.

And anyway, it's a constant battle of temptation against demons, your own greed and power trip, and the world around you. Weak willed people are bared from applying automatically.

I really couldnt care less about pain and suffering. your in combat so its your task to  inflict pain and suffering on your oppenents after all. And demons is just a name.

And when you're not in combat?  How do you justify it then?

I think we've gotten away from the question, most of the discussion here centers around the who and how of using blood magic rather than blood magic itself.  Blood Magic demands and encourages inflicting pain and suffering, unnecessary pain and suffering I might add as there are always alternatives to blood magic available.  Blood Magic is evil.  That is not to say good people can't use it for good purposes, that a noble mage can't use only their blood, or even that corruption and damnation are inevitable.  These are all irrelevant, the bottom line is Blood Magic demands the unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering on yourself or others and is stronger the more suffering is caused, it's evil.

[cjones91]

Evil is subjective,one could say using religion to imprison folks who are born a certain way is evil yet many people will justify it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

I think we've gotten away from the question, most of the discussion here centers around the who and how of using blood magic rather than blood magic itself.  Blood Magic demands and encourages inflicting pain and suffering, unnecessary pain and suffering I might add as there are always alternatives to blood magic available.  Blood Magic is evil.  That is not to say good people can't use it for good purposes, that a noble mage can't use only their blood, or even that corruption and damnation are inevitable.  These are all irrelevant, the bottom line is Blood Magic demands the unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering on yourself or others and is stronger the more suffering is caused, it's evil.

How is it evil to suffer for greater power? I can see an argument that causing others to suffer for your power is evil, but that isn't required. Heck, one could argue that suffering to help others is morally good. The magic would have to have a free will or drain good from the person to be innately evil in such a case, and apparently it can't do either.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 31 août 2013 - 09:28 .

[DPSSOC]

cjones91 wrote...

Evil is subjective,one could say using religion to imprison folks who are born a certain way is evil yet many people will justify it.

The ability to justify evil does not make it less evil.  I have never denied that what is done to mages is terrible but more importantly it is necessary, until such time as the mages can demonstrate they can be trusted to police their own or an effective defense against magic can be made available to the general public.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I think we've gotten away from the question, most of the discussion here centers around the who and how of using blood magic rather than blood magic itself.  Blood Magic demands and encourages inflicting pain and suffering, unnecessary pain and suffering I might add as there are always alternatives to blood magic available.  Blood Magic is evil.  That is not to say good people can't use it for good purposes, that a noble mage can't use only their blood, or even that corruption and damnation are inevitable.  These are all irrelevant, the bottom line is Blood Magic demands the unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering on yourself or others and is stronger the more suffering is caused, it's evil.

How is it evil to suffer for greater power? I can see an argument that causing others to suffer for your power is evil, but that isn't required. Heck, one could argue that suffering to help others is morally good. The magic would have to have a free will or drain good from the person to be innately evil in such a case, and apparently it can't do either.

Again you're arguing the actual use, the question was with regards to the magic itself.  Re-read the bold, yes blood magic can be used by good people for good purposes but that is irrelevant.  You could bind a Pride Demon and use it's power to only heal orphans and kittens it wouldn't change the demon's nature.  Blood magic feeds off of and encourages suffering and the only powers restricted to it serve no purpose but to cause more suffering.  You can't honestly tell me something like that isn't innately evil.

[cjones91]

To some blood magic is necessary when corrupt templars are trying to kill/rape you and they can disrupt any spells you try to perform.It's a means to a end and my Female Elven Mage Warden would only use it if she is in a bind.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
I think we've gotten away from the question, most of the discussion here centers around the who and how of using blood magic rather than blood magic itself.  Blood Magic demands and encourages inflicting pain and suffering, unnecessary pain and suffering I might add as there are always alternatives to blood magic available.  Blood Magic is evil.  That is not to say good people can't use it for good purposes, that a noble mage can't use only their blood, or even that corruption and damnation are inevitable.  These are all irrelevant, the bottom line is Blood Magic demands the unnecessary infliction of pain and suffering on yourself or others and is stronger the more suffering is caused, it's evil.

How is it evil to suffer for greater power? I can see an argument that causing others to suffer for your power is evil, but that isn't required. Heck, one could argue that suffering to help others is morally good. The magic would have to have a free will or drain good from the person to be innately evil in such a case, and apparently it can't do either.

Again you're arguing the actual use, the question was with regards to the magic itself.  Re-read the bold, yes blood magic can be used by good people for good purposes but that is irrelevant.  You could bind a Pride Demon and use it's power to only heal orphans and kittens it wouldn't change the demon's nature.  Blood magic feeds off of and encourages suffering and the only powers restricted to it serve no purpose but to cause more suffering.  You can't honestly tell me something like that isn't innately evil.

You'd be surprised what I can say. See underlined text.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 septembre 2013 - 05:21 .

[DPSSOC]

cjones91 wrote...
To some blood magic is necessary when corrupt templars are trying to kill/rape you and they can disrupt any spells you try to perform.It's a means to a end and my Female Elven Mage Warden would only use it if she is in a bind.

The only time I've seen blood magic actually be necessary, meaning it is the only option available, is in rectifying problems caused by blood magic in the first place (Legacy for example).  In these initial instances blood magic was not necessary, normal magics could have been used to achieve the same results.  As for your Templar example Blood Magic is only necessary within the confines of a very limited imagination.

Blood Magic is a short cut, it's an easy way out for people who don't want to go through the work of coming up with a better solution.

Instead of devoting hours of study, or dealing with demons, to learn Blood Magic, why not spend those days learning how to fight with a quarterstaff, the Circle gives you a steel one for crying out loud.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
How is it evil to suffer for greater power? I can see an argument that causing others to suffer for your power is evil, but that isn't required. Heck, one could argue that suffering to help others is morally good. The magic would have to have a free will or drain good from the person to be innately evil in such a case, and apparently it can't do either.

Again you're arguing the actual use, the question was with regards to the magic itself.  Re-read the bold, yes blood magic can be used by good people for good purposes but that is irrelevant.  You could bind a Pride Demon and use it's power to only heal orphans and kittens it wouldn't change the demon's nature.  Blood magic feeds off of and encourages suffering and the only powers restricted to it serve no purpose but to cause more suffering.  You can't honestly tell me something like that isn't innately evil.

You'd be surprised what I can say. See underlined text.

So the darkspawn aren't evil?  With the exception of the Awakened they've demonstrated no indications of free will, and they certainly don't drain good from people.  Chemical/Biological weapons, child labour, slavery, murder, torture, cruelty, the list goes on, none of these has a will of it's own, none of them drain good from people, are none of them evil?  Your parameters are ridiculously confined.

[Captain Obvious]

Volus Warlord wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Volus Warlord wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Can Blood Magic be evil even if it's just a tool?

Sure.

So if there were experiments done to cure cancer but the methods were evil, you would still condemn it?This is why I look at things in a gray perspective because something that's useful should'nt be discarded based on morality.

That's a rather slippery slope. 

How so?If something can be used for good then who cares if it's seen as evil?

Now you are contradicting yourself. 

If it can be used to cure cancer, then it's not evil.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

DPSSOC wrote...

cjones91 wrote...
To some blood magic is necessary when corrupt templars are trying to kill/rape you and they can disrupt any spells you try to perform.It's a means to a end and my Female Elven Mage Warden would only use it if she is in a bind.

The only time I've seen blood magic actually be necessary, meaning it is the only option available, is in rectifying problems caused by blood magic in the first place (Legacy for example).  In these initial instances blood magic was not necessary, normal magics could have been used to achieve the same results.  As for your Templar example Blood Magic is only necessary within the confines of a very limited imagination.

Blood Magic is a short cut, it's an easy way out for people who don't want to go through the work of coming up with a better solution.

Instead of devoting hours of study, or dealing with demons, to learn Blood Magic, why not spend those days learning how to fight with a quarterstaff, the Circle gives you a steel one for crying out loud.

I've seen the quarterstaves used to fight in real life. I have one in my room right now. They don't look like that.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...
How is it evil to suffer for greater power? I can see an argument that causing others to suffer for your power is evil, but that isn't required. Heck, one could argue that suffering to help others is morally good. The magic would have to have a free will or drain good from the person to be innately evil in such a case, and apparently it can't do either.

Again you're arguing the actual use, the question was with regards to the magic itself.  Re-read the bold, yes blood magic can be used by good people for good purposes but that is irrelevant.  You could bind a Pride Demon and use it's power to only heal orphans and kittens it wouldn't change the demon's nature.  Blood magic feeds off of and encourages suffering and the only powers restricted to it serve no purpose but to cause more suffering.  You can't honestly tell me something like that isn't innately evil.

You'd be surprised what I can say. See underlined text.

So the darkspawn aren't evil?  With the exception of the Awakened they've demonstrated no indications of free will, and they certainly don't drain good from people.  Chemical/Biological weapons, child labour, slavery, murder, torture, cruelty, the list goes on, none of these has a will of it's own, none of them drain good from people, are none of them evil?  Your parameters are ridiculously confined.

Maybe I should have done more underlining: you've clearly missed a large portion of my point. The tools and practices you mention cause people besides the user to suffer, which isn't necessary with blood magic. If you don't cause others to suffer for power, the power has no free will of its own, and the power doesn't turn you evil or need to be used for evil, is that power necessarily evil? As for the darkspawn, one might indeed argue they're not evil until they gain free will, though either way most of them will have to be destroyed.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 septembre 2013 - 07:22 .

[Zetheria Tabris]

Can blood magic be used to heal? Can a blood mage sacrifice some of his life force to heal someone else?

[MKDAWUSS]

I'd like to see Blood Mages performing acts that are beneficial to society. Maybe someone who uses blood magic to heal the gravely wounded? Someone who saves a village from destruction by wiping out the invading forces with blood magic and the Blood Mage doesn't demand weird crap in return?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I'd like to see Blood Mages performing acts that are beneficial to society. Maybe someone who uses blood magic to heal the gravely wounded? Someone who saves a village from destruction by wiping out the invading forces with blood magic and the Blood Mage doesn't demand weird crap in return?

The Grey Wardens are transformed using blood magic, and some of their mages use it in combat. And to the best of my knowledge all they demand are recruiting rights and the money to keep going.

They don't always fight only darkspawn, either. The WC of Ferelden tried to take down a king who apparently ought never have gotten the throne, and they explicitly had and used blood magic. She could have gone about handling the siege a little better, (Maker's sake, she had a small army of mages, how do knights camp right outside your castle when you can shoot fireballs at them!) but there you go.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 01 septembre 2013 - 06:24 .

[dragonflight288]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I'd like to see Blood Mages performing acts that are beneficial to society. Maybe someone who uses blood magic to heal the gravely wounded? Someone who saves a village from destruction by wiping out the invading forces with blood magic and the Blood Mage doesn't demand weird crap in return?

The Grey Wardens are transformed using blood magic, and some of their mages use it in combat. And to the best of my knowledge all they demand are recruiting rights and the money to keep going.

They don't always fight only darkspawn, either. The WC of Ferelden tried to take down a king who apparently ought never have gotten the throne, and they explicitly had and used blood magic. She could have gone about handling the siege a little better, (Maker's sake, she had a small army of mages, how do knights camp right outside your castle when you can shoot fireballs at them!) but there you go.

Technically, Sophia Dryden was one of two heirs to the throne, and was allowed into the Wardens when it was decided her claim to the throne was weaker than Arlan's. But her journal entry makes it clear that even before joining the Wardens, she had every intention of using them against Arlan.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Yeah, but the fact remains that he was apparently a tyrant. (Though we only have this from Avernus, I suppose.)

[cjones91]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Yeah, but the fact remains that he was apparently a tyrant. (Though we only have this from Avernus, I suppose.)

Since the Couslands were involved I'm sure they must have records that could prove Arlan was a tyrant.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I think they destroyed them, if Arland even was a tyrant. He notes that Arland's men slaughtered enough Couslands that the survivors became pliable. Which means that whether or not Avernus is telling the truth, those records won't exist.

[Angrywolves]

The revelation I heard about blood magic is Bioware is considering making it harder to get and may attach some stigma to it.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Angrywolves wrote...

The revelation I heard about blood magic is Bioware is considering making it harder to get and may attach some stigma to it.

Slightly off topic, but yes, Bioware has indicated there's plans in that direction.

[Gokuthegrate]

Blood magic is just a tool. Like any other tool it can be used for "good" or "evil".