348 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

leaguer of one wrote...
entrophy spell may effect people but not kill them. 

Entropy is the school of magic with spells called DEATH CLOUD and LIFE DRAIN.

[Fredward]

I'm sure at least 15 people have already said this but it's already been stated that there is nothing inherently evil about blood magic. Like it doesn't effect your cognition directly. In theory you should be able to deal with a demon ONE SINGLE TIME and get what you want and then never consort with them again. Blood magic doesn't force you to do anything. Even better if you learned it from another person since they ain't tricksy little pixies. Usually. It's just the "absolute power corrupts absolutely" trope doing its DA rounds.

[leaguer of one]

Taleroth wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
entrophy spell may effect people but not kill them. 

Entropy is the school of magic with spells called DEATH CLOUD and LIFE DRAIN.

You don't have to learn them.

[leaguer of one]

Blooddrunk1004 wrote...

Because demon will start screwing with your mind, which is something that should be done in DA:I if Blood Magic will be available again. Blood Mage will either become demon's slave, abomination or he will learn how to control it.
However IMO the biggest reason why people consider Blood Magic evil is because the way it's executed.

The fact you cut yourself with knife and inflict pain upon yourself or your companions to cause even bigger destruction on enemy side. Which makes me wonder if Blood Mage enjoys inflicting the pain upon himself or his friends. Either way the only thing i want is DA:I to recognize you as a Blood Mage, whether it's effected by companions or NPC's. I just want it to be there. Hawke was not even recognized as an apostate (if he/she was mage, yet Bethany was), let alone Blood Mage.

If you are a mage. Demons are trying to mess with your mind any way. Blood magic does not make it happen even more.

[Sol Downer]

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

Primal magic...lighting a fire when you have no tools. Burning a wound shut if you can't heal it completely to prevent infection or bleeding out. Jump-starting a heart, though I don't recommend it unless you reeeeeally know what you're doing. Freezing shut a doorway to prevent enemies from following you. Heck, even Petrify has its uses if we only use it only people trying to kill us.

Entropy, in and of itself, is a very difficult thing to use only for good purposes. A large majority of the skills aren't meant to kill, but rather, weaken and enfeeble. To this end, a mage that uses these skills never truly has to kill their opponent. Weaken, Sleep, Paralysis, Miasma, Disorient, and every single hex come to mind when I say weaken and enfeeble.

Modifié par Ultimashade, 22 août 2013 - 09:04 .

[Sasie]

If blood magic is just another school of magic it's not evil in itself as I see it but comes with even greater temptations that will sooner or later spin out of control if used far and wide like in Tevinter.

The real problem with it though is it's connection to the old gods and demons of the fade. We don't know if the connection to the old gods are correct but demons do teach it to people as we seen in the games. That for me is problematic since we know very little about the truth behind the fade and demons and there might be hidden costs to blood magic if it's too closely tied to demonic arts.

It's possible there is more to it then demons are willing to share and really anything involving spirits should be suspect at best.

Modifié par Sasie, 22 août 2013 - 09:17 .

[Shadow Fox]

draken-heart wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Its fairly simple. Does bloodmagic alter your thoughts and perspective? if not its just a tool. If it is you may need to stay away from it.

It can.

fixed. Can and does depends purely on the person using it.

Wrong what part of "inherently corrupting" do you not get?<_<

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 22 août 2013 - 09:18 .

[leaguer of one]

Ultimashade wrote...

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

Primal magic...lighting a fire when you have no tools. Burning a wound shut if you can't heal it completely to prevent infection or bleeding out. Jump-starting a heart, though I don't recommend it unless you reeeeeally know what you're doing. Freezing shut a doorway to prevent enemies from following you. Heck, even Petrify has its uses if we only use it only people trying to kill us.

Entropy, in and of itself, is a very difficult thing to use only for good purposes. A large majority of the skills aren't meant to kill, but rather, weaken and enfeeble. To this end, a mage that uses these skills never truly has to kill their opponent. Weaken, Sleep, Paralysis, Miasma, Disorient, and every single hex come to mind when I say weaken and enfeeble.

You know know that every case you used can be solved by drinking lyriom potions and learnig abilities that resore mana faster.

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

Primal magic...lighting a fire when you have no tools. Burning a wound shut if you can't heal it completely to prevent infection or bleeding out. Jump-starting a heart, though I don't recommend it unless you reeeeeally know what you're doing. Freezing shut a doorway to prevent enemies from following you. Heck, even Petrify has its uses if we only use it only people trying to kill us.

Entropy, in and of itself, is a very difficult thing to use only for good purposes. A large majority of the skills aren't meant to kill, but rather, weaken and enfeeble. To this end, a mage that uses these skills never truly has to kill their opponent. Weaken, Sleep, Paralysis, Miasma, Disorient, and every single hex come to mind when I say weaken and enfeeble.

You know know that every case you used can be solved by drinking lyriom potions and learnig abilities that resore mana faster.

You do know lore wise that drinking lyrium is bad and leads to addictions?  Not to mention it's pretty much illegal and only circle mages/templars have any easy access to it.  Those abiltities that restore mana require a dead body or a victim.

[Ianamus]

Ultimashade wrote...

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

I think the best solution to this would just to be to develop medical care that does not require magic, like the Qunari have. 

I find it ironic that the one way people are saying blood magic can be good is healing people, when one of the primary reasons that humans in Thedas lack more advanced medical care is the Chantry's ban on surgical/medical experimentation due to blood magic. 

Modifié par EJ107, 22 août 2013 - 09:33 .

[Sasie]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

Primal magic...lighting a fire when you have no tools. Burning a wound shut if you can't heal it completely to prevent infection or bleeding out. Jump-starting a heart, though I don't recommend it unless you reeeeeally know what you're doing. Freezing shut a doorway to prevent enemies from following you. Heck, even Petrify has its uses if we only use it only people trying to kill us.

Entropy, in and of itself, is a very difficult thing to use only for good purposes. A large majority of the skills aren't meant to kill, but rather, weaken and enfeeble. To this end, a mage that uses these skills never truly has to kill their opponent. Weaken, Sleep, Paralysis, Miasma, Disorient, and every single hex come to mind when I say weaken and enfeeble.

You know know that every case you used can be solved by drinking lyriom potions and learnig abilities that resore mana faster.

You do know lore wise that drinking lyrium is bad and leads to addictions?  Not to mention it's pretty much illegal and only circle mages/templars have any easy access to it.  Those abiltities that restore mana require a dead body or a victim.

Problem is... Lore wise how much blood magic could be used. even if it was perfectly safe, before the mage start to risk it's own life and need someone else's blood? It's not like blood comes in a endless supply.

[MissOuJ]

draken-heart wrote...

a bow and arrow and a sword can be used to kill people as well.

Blood magic is only evil because the Chantry brainwashes people into believing it.

This point becomes really interesting when the Chantry's lyrium monopoly is taken into account. AFAWK, there are two ways to cast spells; blood (which is eeevil) and mana, which can be replenished with lyrium potions, which the Chantry has under their financial lock and key, more or less. So, no matter what the actual truth of the matter is, the Chantry has a financial interest to keeping blood magic a taboo, because the resource imbalance is the source of their income (the Formari, according to the Tranquil shopkeeper at Ostagar are the Circle's / Chantry's [can't remember which, but since Circle is part of the Chantry...] main source of wealth) and the fear of mages (which blood magic obviously feeds into) guarantees they have skilled workers (mages and the Tranquil in the Circles) making magical artifacts and enchantments, which again need lyrium.

Having said that, I doubt that it is as simple as that, since blood magic can be very problematic, but that link is indeed there.

On the other hand, blood magic really is just an alternative way to power the spells -- you can even play as a blood mage that does nothing more sinister than just casts from hitpoints when they have no mana left anymore -- but then again the blood magic specific spells are really nasty and gruesome TPK variety of magic, and that's what makes blood magic sinister and scary for most people, plus the whole "read minds and brainwash people" issue. Then there's of course the extra power blood magic gives mages. Whether this is because blood is more cost effective (ie Merrill's comment about consulting the demon and using blood magic to fix the Eluvian: "if I had piles of lyrium lying around I could've used that" which could indicate that blood is more potent source than mana / lyrium) or because the blood mage can add some extra gruesome spells to their magical toolkit (Hemorrhage, Blood Slave), or because blood magic does make the spells more powerful (this seems to not be the case gameplay-wise, but who knows?), or some combination of all of the above, nobody seems to know.

In any case: the more powerful the mage, the bigger temptation s/he is to a demon, which would (again) make blood magic -- well, if not immoral, then at least questionable, since you're putting the people close to you in danger of being cut down by an abomination. Then again, there are also naturally powerful mages who can tempt demons just by being naturally talented, so claiming blood mages would be any different from these naturally powerful mages would be kinda hypocritical. Then there's the issue of learning blood magic: since the practice is (according to the wiki) all but lost in Thedas except for the Tevinter Imperium, so the only way to learn it would be either through banned books (which are expensive / hard to come by, I'd imagine) or consult a demon and make a deal with it -- and risk becoming an abomination.

So, I'd say that in its most basic form there's nothing inherently evil about blood magic: it is, like Merrill says "magic, like any other". But -- and that's a huge but -- the current situation in Thedas makes learning it and using it so risky and dangerous that only serious thirst for power (or, as in the case of Kirkwall, borderline desperate struggle to stay free and survive, or in the case of Merrill, profound want and sense of duty as the First of her clan to return at least some of her people's lost knowledge, or in Quentin's case his obsession with his wife and his desperate attempt to get her back) can justify taking those risks. And people who have such obsession with power that they must have it at any cost (or people who are desperate / emotionally unstable) are probably not the best people to use said power, or the people most likely to go "wait a sec, am I sure I am using my power in a responsible and morally sound way?".

(This of course assumes the mage is only using their own blood / the blood of their willing ally. Adding the Tevinter Imperium and its slave trade into the mix just makes blood magic evil, pure and simple)

Boy that became way longer than it was supposed to. Please excuse my TL;DR nerdery, I find this topic incredibly fascinating

Modifié par MissOuJ, 22 août 2013 - 09:35 .

[LadyRaena13]

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

Modifié par LadyRaena13, 22 août 2013 - 09:40 .

[leaguer of one]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Ultimashade wrote...

Let's say it like this. You run a hospital as a mage, but patients just keep pouring in from the constant strife they endure. You're doing your best to heal them, but eventually, your mana pool just dries up. Your only option is to sacrifice your own blood to continue the healing process, but obviously, you won't be able to keep using yourself before you die. So some buddies come up...they all offer a portion of their own blood to let you keep healing everybody else. Yeah, Blood Magic is considered bad by the general populace, but it can be used for good.

Primal magic...lighting a fire when you have no tools. Burning a wound shut if you can't heal it completely to prevent infection or bleeding out. Jump-starting a heart, though I don't recommend it unless you reeeeeally know what you're doing. Freezing shut a doorway to prevent enemies from following you. Heck, even Petrify has its uses if we only use it only people trying to kill us.

Entropy, in and of itself, is a very difficult thing to use only for good purposes. A large majority of the skills aren't meant to kill, but rather, weaken and enfeeble. To this end, a mage that uses these skills never truly has to kill their opponent. Weaken, Sleep, Paralysis, Miasma, Disorient, and every single hex come to mind when I say weaken and enfeeble.

You know know that every case you used can be solved by drinking lyrium potions and learnig abilities that resore mana faster.

You do know lore wise that drinking lyrium is bad and leads to addictions?  Not to mention it's pretty much illegal and only circle mages/templars have any easy access to it.  Those abiltities that restore mana require a dead body or a victim.

1. Lyrium  potions are only addictive to non-mages.
2.Than it's best to be a circle mage.

[Sasie]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

Poor Anders, he deseperately wishes the world to be something it's not. Fenris is not much better but still.
I think Tevinter should be a warning example in general about Blood magic. Their history shows that reckless use of blood magic caused problems that linger for ages after the people that caused it are gone. The problem though is that with the Chantry destroying so much old history it's becoming a bit harder to use it as a warning example when nothing is certain.

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...

1. Lyrium  potions are only addictive to non-mages.
2.Than it's best to be a circle mage.

Lyrium is an addictive sustance for anyone.

To legally get it, that would be your only choice, as a mage.  But since we are discussing blood magic and as that's not allowed in circles.  We must assume the blood mage is an apostate.

[draken-heart]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

and this conversation with Merrill suggwests there are other ways than dealing with demons:


Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

Modifié par draken-heart, 22 août 2013 - 09:53 .

[ScarMK]

^ Demons are probably the most common method of learning blood magic, but there is no way they are the only method. Jowan learned from books, (which Irving had removed from the library) and the dialogue between Merril and Anders suggests that it's possible to stumble upon it by accident.

[MissOuJ]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

But then there's also the party banter between Anders and Merrill in Act 1 when Anders asks Merrill this:

A: So, when you first did blood magic, it was just an accident, right? You cut yourself and realized the power. You didn't actually deal with a demon?

Which would indicate that it is possible to learn blood magic by accident. It is also possible to unlock the blood mage specialization by buying a book in Awakening (granted, this could be a case of gameplay and story segregation), which would indicate that dealing with a demon is perhaps the most common, but not the only, way to learn blood magic.

[leaguer of one]

draken-heart wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

and this conversation with Merrill suggwests there are other ways than dealing with demons:


Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

No. That conversation proves there other ways to perceive demons not deal with them.

[leaguer of one]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

1. Lyrium  potions are only addictive to non-mages.
2.Than it's best to be a circle mage.

Lyrium is an addictive sustance for anyone.

To legally get it, that would be your only choice, as a mage.  But since we are discussing blood magic and as that's not allowed in circles.  We must assume the blood mage is an apostate.

Nope. Just non-mages. Point to one lyrium addicted mage.

[Sasie]

Even if there are other ways to learn blood magic one must ask. Does Blood magic originate from demons? If so it hardly matters if someone wrote the methods down in books or not, the entire field is still more or less nothing but a practice of demonic rituals.

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

1. Lyrium  potions are only addictive to non-mages.
2.Than it's best to be a circle mage.

Lyrium is an addictive sustance for anyone.

To legally get it, that would be your only choice, as a mage.  But since we are discussing blood magic and as that's not allowed in circles.  We must assume the blood mage is an apostate.

Nope. Just non-mages. Point to one lyrium addicted mage.

Mage's don't get addicted because they don't need to drink it in order to make use of it.  The PC and companions drinking it is gameplay/story segregation.  In the mage origin we are shown lyrium and the PC does not ingest it.  There's nothing that says mages are immune to the addictive properties of it if they did drink it.

Modifié par ScarMK, 22 août 2013 - 10:04 .

[draken-heart]

leaguer of one wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

and this conversation with Merrill suggwests there are other ways than dealing with demons:


Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

No. That conversation proves there other ways to perceive demons not deal with them.

Bolded the part you need to take a closer look at.