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[leaguer of one]

draken-heart wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

and this conversation with Merrill suggwests there are other ways than dealing with demons:


Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

No. That conversation proves there other ways to perceive demons not deal with them.

Bolded the part you need to take a closer look at.

That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

[Wulfram]

EJ107 wrote...

Well, blood magic always seems to involve directly injuring yourself or another, so it was implied. Otherwise mages would just carry around a bucket of animal blood for use in blood magic spells. 

It was reasonable to believe that it required fresh blood, or that the blood was emblematic of some sort of life force.  It's a big jump from that to making pain a necessary ingredient

[draken-heart]

leaguer of one wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a demon

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.
Anders: You know, to use blood magic you must look a demon in the eye and accept his offer.
Anders: I just figured some of them would say no. For aesthetic reasons, if nothing else.

and this conversation with Merrill suggwests there are other ways than dealing with demons:


Anders: So, when you first did blood magic, it was... just an accident, right?
Anders: You cut yourself and realized the power? You didn't actually deal with a demon?
Merrill: Oh, no. I did.
Anders: Why would you do that?
Merrill: I needed his help. He was really very nice about it.
Anders: Of course he was! He's using you to get a foothold in a mortal brain!
Merrill: He's a spirit. He offered me his aid. I hardly think you're one to criticize.

No. That conversation proves there other ways to perceive demons not deal with them.

Bolded the part you need to take a closer look at.

That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

Still hints at other means to learn it, unless everything involved deals with demons, which means magic in and of itself is evil because it would involve demons, the circles are evil, the templars are evil, etc. need I go on?

[Gold Dragon]

Do we really need all the Quote pyramids?

Anyways:  Blood Magic in DA is much like the Force in Star Wars.  A tool, but used the wrong way can be corrupting, leading down a very slippery slope called corruption.

[Taleroth]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

draken-heart and Taleroth: This is the conversation that lead me to believe blood magic required learning from a

There's a good argument that demons are the source of blood magic.

The setting just loses a lot of coherency that way. The original source of blood magic is supposed to be the old gods. Who are distinctly not demons. And if not them, then the elves, who also aren't demons.

Demons are supposed to be possession crazy. This is the entire point of the harrowing. Deal with a demon, don't get possessed. So why are demons going around teaching people blood magic without possessing them? And if the circle and templars make sure that every single mage has encountered a demon, isn't that just asking them all to turn into blood mages? What's stopping it?

And is it just demons that know it? The defining distinction between a demon and a spirit is that demons are jerks. That's the only distinction truly. Which means both Anders and Wynne should know everything there is about blood magic.

Modifié par Taleroth, 22 août 2013 - 10:13 .

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...
That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

I'm not sure someone getting cut whether intentionally or unintentionally is the demon hotline.

[draken-heart]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

I'm not sure someone getting cut whether intentionally or unintentionally is the demon hotline.

good point. I've yet to see one case where cutting oneself, as a mage, summons a demon to deal with.

[leaguer of one]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

I'm not sure someone getting cut whether intentionally or unintentionally is the demon hotline.

I'm not sure how someone can read a spell and not know it's blood magic.

[LadyRaena13]

Taleroth: Think about it though in the Harrowing the mouse/demon guy DOESN'T possess you. You either have to agree to their offer, lose the battle within the fade OR a crazy blood mage kidnaps you and some how implants you with a demon. There are demons in solid form too! The demon Merrill contacted was bound somewhere else at the time of the deal so it couldn't possess her. In the Origins game you make a deal with the demon to learn blood magic and in return it keeps Conner so it doesn't need you.

 Also, Merrill was actively seeking help. The shard was corrupted and she wanted to cleanse it but Marathari refused so she found help else where.

Modifié par LadyRaena13, 22 août 2013 - 10:27 .

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

I'm not sure someone getting cut whether intentionally or unintentionally is the demon hotline.

I'm not sure how someone can read a spell and not know it's blood magic.

You're confusing Blood Mages INTENTIONALLY summoning demons and Blood Mages who aren't.  Mage origin again, Jowan cuts himself and attacks.  No demon in sight. There's also the case of the blood mages in the warehouse in Denerim.  There's two blood mages and one of them is the "boss".  No demons summoned/shown up there either.

[LadyRaena13]

***sorry my mistake didn't read something properly***

Modifié par LadyRaena13, 22 août 2013 - 10:30 .

[leaguer of one]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That means you can accidently contact a demon, not learn blood magic by accident.

I'm not sure someone getting cut whether intentionally or unintentionally is the demon hotline.

I'm not sure how someone can read a spell and not know it's blood magic.

You're confusing Blood Mages INTENTIONALLY summoning demons and Blood Mages who aren't.  Mage origin again, Jowan cuts himself and attacks.  No demon in sight. There's also the case of the blood mages in the warehouse in Denerim.  There's two blood mages and one of them is the "boss".  No demons summoned/shown up there either.

That still means you don't learn blood magic by accident.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Any use for blood magic that could be labeled as "good" could be done using the other schools of magic or with lyrium, the fact that blood magic uses suffering and pain to empower itself should indicate it isn't the happiest of magical schools and when it's only unique wide-spread purposes are controlling minds and raising the dead, I see why it's outlawed.

There are supposed to be Tevinters who give their lives to do seriously OP magic. There's supposed to be a Tevinter who gave his life to blow up a Qunari fleet, which notwithstanding that there's little to choose between the Tevinter and Qunari still shows a remarkable amount of civic spirit and selflessness. Then there's the Tevinter legends of mages who give their lives to save loved ones. And then there's the Joining, which cannot be done without blood magic. There are good uses for blood magic.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 22 août 2013 - 10:52 .

[Taleroth]

LadyRaena13 wrote...

Taleroth: Think about it though in the Harrowing the mouse/demon guy DOESN'T possess you.

Mouse tries.

[ScarMK]

leaguer of one wrote...
That still means you don't learn blood magic by accident.

If it wasn't possible to learn blood magic on accident, why would Anders ask Merril if she did?

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Taleroth wrote...

LadyRaena13 wrote...

Taleroth: Think about it though in the Harrowing the mouse/demon guy DOESN'T possess you.

Mouse tries.

Not very hard. I think there must be some benefit to a mage willingly allowing a demon inside, though whether that's added power or just less effort I couldn't tell you.

[Maria Caliban]

thats1evildude wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently evil...

We have no idea if this is true or not. Some people assume that a specific school of magic in a fictional setting is as moral as a hammer or axe in the real world, but we shouldn't treat speculation as fact.

'Blood magic is not inherently evil' is about as true as 'the Maker does not exist.'

Possibly right. Possibly wrong.

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That still means you don't learn blood magic by accident.

If it wasn't possible to learn blood magic on accident, why would Anders ask Merril if she did?

Because blood magic refers to two related but different things. The first is using blood to power any spell - mages can 'feel' their way to this. The second is the blood magic school, which is a group of spells that can only be accessed through using blood. Mages have to learn these spells and cannot just stumble upon them.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 août 2013 - 11:00 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Maria Caliban wrote...

thats1evildude wrote...

Blood magic is not inherently evil...

We have no idea if this is true or not. Some people assume that a specific school of magic in a fictional setting is as moral as a hammer or axe in the real world, but we shouldn't treat speculation as fact.

'Blood magic is not inherently evil' is about as true as 'the Maker does not exist.'

Possibly right. Possibly wrong.

We have Word of Gaider that the magic is not inherently evil, and that the only corruption comes from the person wielding it letting the power go to his/her head. I'm still waiting on his word on the Maker.

[Maria Caliban]

Do we? My apologies then.

Carry on.

[Herr Uhl]

Filament wrote...

They could have driven the point home better about the danger of demons if accepting his offer led to a gruesome game over sequence as the templars cut you down in your new flesh jacket, I think. Dunno why they had to force the player to catch wise.

Unless he just doesn't think you're worth it yet, and knows he'd be cut down anyway. So he could have taken you by force if he wanted, but chose otherwise. That probably gels with this supposed cut content.

I think that the game over screen would have been great. I liked that part of the origin, but the forced success was kind of weird.

It was the only time a demon was somewhat convincing in trying to deceive you which made the forced wise catching more disappointing. As compared to the completely totally real Duncan of real.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 22 août 2013 - 11:02 .

[draken-heart]

ScarMK wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...
That still means you don't learn blood magic by accident.

If it wasn't possible to learn blood magic on accident, why would Anders ask Merril if she did?

ignore him. He wants to think that they only way to learn blod magic is to deal with a demon, let him think so. The rest of us know better.

[Karlone123]

Isn't it very corrupting to the user?

[In Exile]

Filament wrote...

They could have driven the point home better about the danger of demons if accepting his offer led to a gruesome game over sequence as the templars cut you down in your new flesh jacket, I think. Dunno why they had to force the player to catch wise.

Unless he just doesn't think you're worth it yet, and knows he'd be cut down anyway. So he could have taken you by force if he wanted, but chose otherwise. That probably gels with this supposed cut content.

It's more that Bioware always makes their protagonists brilliant. It's just assumed by the narrative that you're amazing at [insert class]. The same way that the game assumes you're a naturally charismatic leader. KoTOR was a bit of an exception, in that Bastilla and Carth sort of lead the party, and then DA2 is potentially an exception, since there technically wasn't a party to lead.