348 réponses à ce sujet

[snackrat]

1) Blood magic is fueled by life in blood. Often the life of other people. Not cool being a battery, and it also has ethical implications.

2) Blood magic is learned from demons. Demons corrupt mages. Any mage that therefore leans blood magic has therefore proven themselves vulnerable to demonic influence and manipulation, meaning that in extreme peril turning towards demonic power (and possession) is inevitable. Don't underestimate the survival instinct's tendancy towards doing stupid things, even - or especially - at the expense of other people. Many people are willing to give up their sense of self from fear of death.

3) Blood magic isn't inherently stronger than non-blood methods excepting in only two things - one, it can be fueled with life instead of mana, and two, it can manipulate people against their will. Anyone who learns blood magic would presumably only be doing so for these two goals.

4) As a victim, one cannot necessarily know if they genuinely like something or what to attack someone, or are being forced to. Therefore anyone with blood magic (who is therefore CAPABLE of this) will be ostracised since the only person who KNOWS they're not up to no good is the person themselves (who would lie if accusations were correct).

5) The mage-templar-civilian argument is ultimately about fear: security versus freedom. Despite all the talk about people loving their freedom, given the option they choose security every time. Maybe you are the 0.001% of mages they know blood magic and don't manipulate people. For security reasons, CAN THEY TAKE THAT CHANCE?
I'd guess less than 0.0001% of the liquid people try to take on plans is secretly explosives (rest being just water, juice, soda, shampoo, etc), but you may have noticed customs still doesn't like it, and that is when the dangerous are the overwhelming MINORITY.

6) Ever heard of a good blood mage? The closest we have is Merrill, and she nearly unleashed a Pride Demon upon the entire frickin' world. BECAUSE she thought she could dabble in blood magic and not be vulnerable.

7) Both the circle and the Dalish educate (and enforce) against blood magic (though the Dalish appear to exile rather than execute). Those who learn it are therefore by nature rule-breakers - they are either breaking the rules of their society, or are apostates attempting to avoid society's laws altogether. Not a great character reference.

8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc) So many more reasons seriously, just reading the rest of this thread...

Modifié par Karsciyin, 23 août 2013 - 03:32 .

[Torchlyte]

As far as I can tell, the only problems that Blood Magic solves are ones that were caused by Blood Magic. Thus, the existence of Blood Magic continually causes more suffering than it alleviates, in every situation where it is involved. Most people would call that evil.

By all means, I'd love to hear examples to the contrary... but I expect that in all cases I will either tie the original problem back to Blood Magic or point out that an alternative, viable method exists.

Two examples of problems caused and solved by Blood Magic, for starters:
-Archdemons and Grey Wardens
-Jowan and Arl Eamon's Son (Connor)

Modifié par Torchlyte, 23 août 2013 - 03:41 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Torchlyte wrote...

As far as I can tell, the only problems that Blood Magic solves are ones that were caused by Blood Magic. Thus, the existence of Blood Magic continually causes more suffering than it alleviates, in every situation where it is involved. Most people would call that evil.

By all means, I'd love to hear examples to the contrary... but I expect that in all cases I will either tie the original problem back to Blood Magic or point out that an alternative, viable method exists.

Two examples of problems caused and solved by Blood Magic, for starters:
-Archdemons and Grey Wardens
-Jowan and Arl Eamon's Son (Connor)

That's as may be, but those problems still need solutions, and Blood Magic is necessary to solve one of them.

[Roninbarista]

I wondered about it's evil as Wynne always warned about it being such. I think it has a corrupting influence on the mage, BUT it takes an exceptionaly strong will to resist its darker appeals. In DA 2 Huon, and a slew of mages in Kirkwall seemed to give into the insanity so quickly. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Roninbarista wrote...

I wondered about it's evil as Wynne always warned about it being such. I think it has a corrupting influence on the mage, BUT it takes an exceptionaly strong will to resist its darker appeals. In DA 2 Huon, and a slew of mages in Kirkwall seemed to give into the insanity so quickly. 

As has been repeatedly mentioned, we have from the head writer that Blood Magic is not corrupting except insofar as power corrupts and Blood Magic A: gives you a lot of it, and B: gives you more and more the lower you sink to claim it. Wynne worries that she's only spouting platitudes that the Chantry indoctrinated her with, and to a large extent she's right to have that fear.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 août 2013 - 03:58 .

[Torchlyte]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's as may be, but those problems still need solutions, and Blood Magic is necessary to solve one of them.

There's no evidence that you're wrong on that, but it's theoretically possible that if Blood Magic was not used to stop the Blight, another solution could have been found. Whether it's moral to forego a known solution in search of an alternative, is debatable.

My Warden chose to use Jowan to save Connor because the possibility of him causing harm to others (while my Warden traveled to the Circle) was too significant.

Modifié par Torchlyte, 23 août 2013 - 04:00 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

Torchlyte wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

That's as may be, but those problems still need solutions, and Blood Magic is necessary to solve one of them.

There's no evidence that you're wrong on that, but it's theoretically possible that if Blood Magic was not used to stop the Blight, another solution could have been found.

Theoretically, though I tend to doubt it. Magic that manipulates souls only seems to be a thing where the archdemons are concerned, and only because of their innate power in that direction. How this would be accomplished without using the Taint and blood magic is a difficult question.

Whether it's moral to forego a known solution in search of an alternative, is debatable.

My Warden chose to use Jowan to save Connor because the possibility of him causing harm to others (while my Warden traveled to the Circle) was too significant.

If you want my opinion, it depends on whether lives are at stake. Especially if those lives are the entire world.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 août 2013 - 04:07 .

[aphelion4]

Considering that every other school of magic can just as easily kill someone, singling out Blood Magic as the only "evil" school seems a bit...iffy if the argument is just that it "manipulates/kills" people.

All magic is dangerous. There's no difference between controlling an evil bastard's brain and having him stab himself than chucking a fireball at him. Both will kill him. The problem with Blood Magic according to the game is that is opens the mage up for possession and the iffy methods of acquiring Blood Magic in the first place, so it's not particularly smart to go for it.

Personally I find the idea of boiling someone's blood and mind controlling them to be a rather satisfying and cool death for a dirtbag so I always turn my character into a blood mage (if I play as a mage) and my characters are ALWAYS the goody-two-shoes types. If it had consequences story wise, I probably wouldn't though.

Edit: Just read some more and found out that apparently Blood Magic itself doesn't actually corrupt the individual, but the sense of power some nutcase would derive from it does. In that case, it changes my perspective on Blood Magic quite a bit actually, and pairing that with the impression that Blood Magic can be learned by other means (not dealing with a demon) and well, I don't find anything wrong with it if it's in the hands of someone with a good heart (coughtheplayercough).

Modifié par aphelion4, 23 août 2013 - 04:32 .

[Star fury]

Grey Wardens use blood magic against the darkspawn, it's not a problem for them. Why should it be problem for me? Duncan is fairly neutral and pragmatic about warden mages killing darkspawn with anything they have. 

Modifié par Star fury, 23 août 2013 - 04:41 .

[Parmida]

Even Duncan agrees that there are worse things threatening the world than blood magic.

And no, blood magic isn't evil at all. It's evil only if the person that uses it does evil things.
It's like a gun or nuclear power. Even a knife in a serial killer's hand can be used for many evil acts.

Modifié par Parmida, 23 août 2013 - 04:33 .

[dragonflight288]

In my mind, blood magic is a lot like the dragon amulet in Jade Empire. It is a very powerful tool, but one that can easily be abused. A spirit monk in Jade Empire, given training with the dragon amulet, can bind a living being's soul to them, and that person would have literally no choice but to do exactly as had been told, similar to blood magic's mind-dominating abilities....after a few weeks of torture or just overwhelming their mind in Dragon Age.

In the wrong hands, it's one of the most dangerous things that they can possess, and can cause wide-spread devastation by someone who knows what they're doing. In the right hands, it can be used to great effect, benefiting everyone.

Some powers are too dark to be considered good for anything, but what if you came across someone about to throw himself off a roof, but you used blood magic, not to control his mind, but to nudge him to back away onto more solid ground, and find a solution to his problems?

[TK514]

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

Theoretically, though I tend to doubt it. Magic that manipulates souls only seems to be a thing where the archdemons are concerned, and only because of their innate power in that direction. How this would be accomplished without using the Taint and blood magic is a difficult question.

We know that the Darkspawn can taint magical items, such as the Eluvian.
We know that items exist that can trap souls, such as in the Arcane Warrior unlock.

In theory, combining the two should allow for the capture of an Archdemon's soul without the necessity of Grey Wardens.

but that's adifferent discussion.

[Sharn01]

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

leaguer of one wrote...



It would of possesed ether one. It goal was only to get free. And Merrill's use of blood magic is not evil...Stupid not evil.

And selfish too.

I would not go as far as that. She believe she is doing this for her people. Selfishness is not the issue here. Pride is.

Just my belief her clan and Elders told her repeatedly it wasn't worth the risk and she disregarded them every time thinking she knew better seemed selfish to me.

That still not beiign selfish. If it was selffish she would of only don't it out of personal  gain. It being stubborn and prideful.

Hence why it was a pride demon Merril made the deal with.
 Selfish is lust.

Disregarding others' wishes is a form of selfishness to me though.

I think it would be best for you to liquidate everything you own and send all the money to me.  Obviously disregarding my wishes will make you in the wrong and prove how selfish you are.

The Merril and Marethari situation was one of the few well done situations in DA2, if you disregard the clan attacking you part, as both sides where being prideful, and both sides where not seeing where the other one was coming from.  Neither one of them was right or wrong, and both of them could have handled it better. 

People on the forums though really  need to get it out of their head that Marethari was flawless and that she knew better then Merril about everything, because that is simply not true.

Modifié par Sharn01, 23 août 2013 - 05:04 .

[General Malor]

Star fury wrote...

Grey Wardens use blood magic against the darkspawn, it's not a problem for them. Why should it be problem for me? Duncan is fairly neutral and pragmatic about warden mages killing darkspawn with anything they have. 

Because the Blight is far more dangerous than any one blood mage. It's like a murderous gangster vs a sadistic serial killer, they are both bad, but if the ganster will fight the serial killer then they're useful for a time.

Lesser evil doesn't mean that it's not evil.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have Word of Gaider that the magic is not inherently evil, and that the only corruption comes from the person wielding it letting the power go to his/her head. I'm still waiting on his word on the Maker.

We do? Where? I've not seen it, and I don't doubt you very much, so I would love to see this. It would pretty much settle the discussion.

My biggest problem with blood magic and people who argue for it is I don't see many instances where they show an NPC using blood magic for anything good. Ever. In any of the games or books I can't think of an instance where it has been a positive, as I've said earlier. It doesn't mean it's not out there, just that I can't think of it. The player's use of it doesn't really matter because they don't use blood magic to achieve good ends that are directly of and the sole effect from blood magic. Killing the Archdemon doesn't count, because everyone does that if they beat the game, so it's not dependent on blood magic.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

Karsciyin wrote...

1) Blood magic is fueled by life in blood. Often the life of other people. Not cool being a battery, and it also has ethical implications.

2) Blood magic is learned from demons. Demons corrupt mages. Any mage that therefore leans blood magic has therefore proven themselves vulnerable to demonic influence and manipulation, meaning that in extreme peril turning towards demonic power (and possession) is inevitable. Don't underestimate the survival instinct's tendancy towards doing stupid things, even - or especially - at the expense of other people. Many people are willing to give up their sense of self from fear of death.

3) Blood magic isn't inherently stronger than non-blood methods excepting in only two things - one, it can be fueled with life instead of mana, and two, it can manipulate people against their will. Anyone who learns blood magic would presumably only be doing so for these two goals.

4) As a victim, one cannot necessarily know if they genuinely like something or what to attack someone, or are being forced to. Therefore anyone with blood magic (who is therefore CAPABLE of this) will be ostracised since the only person who KNOWS they're not up to no good is the person themselves (who would lie if accusations were correct).

5) The mage-templar-civilian argument is ultimately about fear: security versus freedom. Despite all the talk about people loving their freedom, given the option they choose security every time. Maybe you are the 0.001% of mages they know blood magic and don't manipulate people. For security reasons, CAN THEY TAKE THAT CHANCE?
I'd guess less than 0.0001% of the liquid people try to take on plans is secretly explosives (rest being just water, juice, soda, shampoo, etc), but you may have noticed customs still doesn't like it, and that is when the dangerous are the overwhelming MINORITY.

6) Ever heard of a good blood mage? The closest we have is Merrill, and she nearly unleashed a Pride Demon upon the entire frickin' world. BECAUSE she thought she could dabble in blood magic and not be vulnerable.

7) Both the circle and the Dalish educate (and enforce) against blood magic (though the Dalish appear to exile rather than execute). Those who learn it are therefore by nature rule-breakers - they are either breaking the rules of their society, or are apostates attempting to avoid society's laws altogether. Not a great character reference.

8, 9, 10, 11, 12, etc) So many more reasons seriously, just reading the rest of this thread...

Only if the Blood Magic apologists agree with these...

Parmida wrote...

Even Duncan agrees that there are worse things threatening the world than blood magic.

Yeah, it's probably third worst thing in that universe; after Demons and the Blight.

[leaguer of one]

Star fury wrote...

Grey Wardens use blood magic against the darkspawn, it's not a problem for them. Why should it be problem for me? Duncan is fairly neutral and pragmatic about warden mages killing darkspawn with anything they have. 

Because you don't have a valid reaso for using blood magic.

That's like saying because the army uses assult rifles it's ok for you to hunt with them.

[Kaiser Arian XVII]

leaguer of one wrote...

Because you don't have a valid reaso(n) for using blood magic.

That's like saying because the army uses chemical weapons it's ok for you to hunt with them.

Fixed.

[Star fury]

General Malor wrote...
Because the Blight is far more dangerous than any one blood mage. It's like a murderous gangster vs a sadistic serial killer, they are both bad, but if the ganster will fight the serial killer then they're useful for a time.

Lesser evil doesn't mean that it's not evil.

But is the blood magic evil? If grey warden uses his own blood or darkspawn blood to kill them, it's excellent! 

leaguer of one wrote...

Because you don't have a valid reaso for using blood magic.

That's like saying because the army uses assult rifles it's ok for you to hunt with them.

Saving Thedas from Blight is fairly valid reason to use it.

[DarkDragon777]

No, blood magic itself isn't evil. It's the intention of the user that decides it's use. I thought this was a pretty basic concept but I guess a lot of people don't understand this.

[Zeta42]

wildkeny wrote...

blood magic = reaper tech

So in the game's process, all darkspawn will be given a chance to acquire blood magic and achieve true intelligence... and one of the endings will offer you to destroy all blood magic and its carriers, including the darkspawn and your blood mage companion?

[TK514]

Zeta42 wrote...

wildkeny wrote...

blood magic = reaper tech

So in the game's process, all darkspawn will be given a chance to acquire blood magic and achieve true intelligence... and one of the endings will offer you to destroy all blood magic and its carriers, including the darkspawn and your blood mage companion?

I won't lie; I wouldn't even have to stop and think about it before shooting/stabbing/fireballing the tube.

[Face of Evil]

Aaleel wrote...

DA:O did a better job of separating the mage from the actual blood magic. In DA2 on the other hand it was portrayed it as more evil and gave the impression that any mage that delved in it would turn out bad.

Oh yeah, those blood mages in DAO were the very picture of calm-headed restraint. 

"Templars or mages, it makes no difference to us. There is dark power here and you will not stop us."

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

General Malor wrote...

Star fury wrote...

Grey Wardens use blood magic against the darkspawn, it's not a problem for them. Why should it be problem for me? Duncan is fairly neutral and pragmatic about warden mages killing darkspawn with anything they have. 

Because the Blight is far more dangerous than any one blood mage. It's like a murderous gangster vs a sadistic serial killer, they are both bad, but if the ganster will fight the serial killer then they're useful for a time.

Lesser evil doesn't mean that it's not evil.

Valid point.

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

We have Word of Gaider that the magic is not inherently evil, and that the only corruption comes from the person wielding it letting the power go to his/her head. I'm still waiting on his word on the Maker.

We do? Where? I've not seen it, and I don't doubt you very much, so I would love to see this. It would pretty much settle the discussion.

It will if people read it. There's people doing so, you included obviously, but there's also people on this forum who don't read the case against their arguments.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/47/index/631964/1#638830

My biggest problem with blood magic and people who argue for it is I don't see many instances where they show an NPC using blood magic for anything good. Ever. In any of the games or books I can't think of an instance where it has been a positive, as I've said earlier. It doesn't mean it's not out there, just that I can't think of it. The player's use of it doesn't really matter because they don't use blood magic to achieve good ends that are directly of and the sole effect from blood magic. Killing the Archdemon doesn't count, because everyone does that if they beat the game, so it's not dependent on blood magic.

It requires the Joining, and the cost is defrayed by Morrigan's ritual. That's blood magic twice.

Modifié par Riverdaleswhiteflash, 23 août 2013 - 06:24 .

[Zanallen]

The main problem with blood magic is that is allows its user to break the rules, so to speak. It allows the mage to go above and beyond what they normally can do. That kind of power is addicting. Add to that the ability to literally take control of people who oppose you? It would be so easy to get what you want. No matter if you start with the best of intentions, corruption is a terribly subtle thing. It isn't evil; however, it is a far more slippery path to walk.

[Quyk Sylvyr]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Riverdaleswhiteflash wrote...

You're saying that its inherently evil, despite the good it can do and the fact that it ended all Five Blights and has two more to go, due to the way that people react to the power it grants?

Let's be fair here, it's most likely just cleaning up the mess it has made.  You certainly don't call someone "good" for picking up the pieces of pottery they've broken.


Also, evil things can be used to do good.  </Malconvoker>

Keep in mind that there's no definitive proof that blood magic is what caused the taint initially.  I don't think there has ever been any confirmation that the magisters actually caused the taint.  I know a couple other threads have discussed it, and I don't think anyone could come with a definite answer.  (The chant of light is not an authoritative source.)

And it has been a bit since I replayed DA2, but I'm pretty sure it was revealed that Hawke's father was a bloodmage in Legacy - or at least performed some blood magic.  He never went crazy.