276 réponses à ce sujet

[Sir DeLoria]

David7204 wrote...
Secondly, criticizing characters for being 'emotional' when one of their parents is killed or when their entire race is on the brink of extinction is absurd. I've seen this countless times with Liara, and it's irritating. When is Tali's judgement compromised because of her emotions?

Thirdly, sometimes things just go wrong on missions, and that's the end of it. Tali is no savant, but that doesn't make her a particularly 'incompetent' leader. Not everyone is Shepard. That's not a flaw any more for her than it is for the other 9 squadmates on the suicide mission that get killed as leaders.

Tali can't keep people under control, she's not charismatic. I don't blame her for Haestrom, but if she was a good leader she should've been able to force Prazza and his squad to stand down. She especially has trouble with her newly found responsibility as a temporary Admiral in ME3 and openly admits that she can't handle the stress of being a leader.

I'm not criticizing her at all, I'm merely pointing out the obvious. Her reaction to Rael's death was absolutely understandable, but the dialogue just before her father's body is found shows that she has very conflicting emotions. During the 'Crime in Progress' assignment she talks about how her emotions sometimes take over her reason. Like I said, being emotional isn't a direct flaw(for most people), but you can't deny that she is far more emotional than the other main characters of the series.

[AlexMBrennan]

Secondly, criticizing characters for being 'emotional' when one of their parents is killed or when their entire race is on the brink of extinction is absurd.

Actually, I can - do you really want the people in charge of your nations nuclear arsenal panic in critical situations. Not everyone is fit for the job just like not everyone can be an olympic athlete - Tali sucks at being an admiral, Liara sucks at being the shadowbroker... it's called "not being a mary sue"

[David7204]

Yeah, I forgot. You like to make utterly moronic strawmen in response to completely reasonable points.

Mass Effect is not an RPG because the player gets very slightly different dialogue for doing missions in a different order. That is completely stupid.

[David7204]

AlexMBrennan wrote...

Secondly, criticizing characters for being 'emotional' when one of their parents is killed or when their entire race is on the brink of extinction is absurd.

Actually, I can - do you really want the people in charge of your nations nuclear arsenal panic in critical situations. Not everyone is fit for the job just like not everyone can be an olympic athlete - Tali sucks at being an admiral, Liara sucks at being the shadowbroker... it's called "not being a mary sue"

Except that's not true at all, since neither Tali nor Liara panic? Both of them are completely able to handle themselves for the rest of the mission.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 08:27 .

[David7204]

Very slightly different dialogue for doing the exact same missions in a difference order is an 'emergent experience' now? Ridiculous. A completely delusionary definition of 'exploration.'

All meaningful exploration would be completely intact with a tighter and more satisfying narrative.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 08:35 .

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

David7204 wrote...

I think I would have made the player do the main missions in a mandatory order as well. Therum-Feros-Virmire-Noveria.

Yeah, I forgot. You don't even want an RPG. Somehow you want a linear action adventure game devoid of any emergent roleplaying or exploration, and replaced with "levels/stages" and prewritten themes.

In any case, if I was a Colonist myself and just finished Eden Prime, Feros would be my first choice.

I'm not sure how forcing this order would even work in the game. Obviously the dialogue with Udina and Anderson at the dock would exclude telling Shepard all 3 locations at once, and instead have each location fed piecemeal to Shepard, with each new location sent over the comm after another mission is completed. Problem is, there's not much point forcing the order to this degree when there's so many that aren't tied to the main plot. But the biggest problem is Virmire. Forcing Virmire to come before any one of those other missions would be kind of annoying in that you are forced to lose at least one squad member, and can potentially lose two.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 août 2013 - 08:42 .

[David7204]

My words aren't meant to be creative. They're meant to be the truth. And they are. Seriously thinking that having the missions in a certain order and removing a trivial amount of dialogue that covers nothing important means exploration is being drained from the game or that I 'hate RPGs' is delusionary. It's something I picked up writing for science classes. You use the word that's right, not the word that sounds pretty. Even if that means using the same word un-elegantly throughout a paper or paragraph.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 08:44 .

[David7204]

KaiserShep wrote...

I'm not sure how forcing this order would even work in the game. Obviously the dialogue with Udina and Anderson at the dock would exclude telling Shepard all 3 locations at once, and instead have each location fed piecemeal to Shepard, with each no location sent over the comm after another mission is completed. Problem is, there's not much point forcing the order to this degree when there's so many that aren't tied to the main plot. But the biggest problem is Virmire. Forcing Virmire to come before any one of those other missions would be kind of annoying in that you are forced to lose at least one squad member, and can potentially lose two.

There is a point. There's actually several points. The narraive flows much better in a certain order and some unwelcome discrepencies are eliminated. Contrary to eliminating meaningful dialouge, it would actually allow it to be expanded. The player would enjoy more 'RPG' experience, not less.

Virmire is not a problem. It would come after Feros and before Noveria. And even if it was a problem, it would be a problem in the current game as well, since the player has no way of knowing they're going to lose a squadmate or two there in the first place.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 08:47 .

[Sir DeLoria]

David7204 wrote...

My words aren't meant to be creative. They're meant to be the truth. And they are.

That is by far the most vain thing I've read all day:mellow:

[David7204]

Enough of this. I've put my points down. If you want to talk about them without resorting to nonsense like "You obviously must hate RPGs," we can talk. If not, we're done here.

I'll just copy and paste.

There is a point. There's actually several points. The narraive flows much better in a certain order and some unwelcome discrepencies are eliminated. Contrary to eliminating meaningful dialogue, it would actually allow it to be expanded. The player would enjoy more 'RPG' experience, not less.

Virmire is not a problem. It would come after Feros and before Noveria. And even if it was a problem, it would be a problem in the current game as well, since the player has no way of knowing they're going to lose a squadmate or two there in the first place.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 08:53 .

[David7204]

Saying "you must hate RPGs" is not a point. It's a very stupid and completely untrue attempt to discredit what I say. It's really no different at all from saying "So you must love Hitler then?" or somesuch nonsense to any argument about politics or economics.

Really, that's what annoys me. I don't care about the confrontation. I do care about the use of such tactics.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 09:19 .

[David7204]

I don't think this is going anywhere. Do you any points against what I have to say aside from me supposedly hating RPGs?

[David7204]

How exactly are the settings, world building, and 'dynamic' plot points compromised by having the player complete the exact same missions in a specific order? And what exactly do you mean by 'dynamic' anyway?

[David7204]

Doing missions in a different order isn't going to offer any of that.

[David7204]

Just take away that opportunity and Shepard never has to make the decision in the first place.