276 réponses à ce sujet

[David7204]

Feros, and Noveria and not 'decisions.' They're dice rolls. The only thing the player knows about them is their climate. The 'decision' to go to Feros or Noveria first is nothing more than a guess. Thankfully, Anderson and Udina hint to you to go find Liara first.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 10:21 .

[David7204]

Here are some reasons why this is a good idea.

First of all, is removes discrepancies with Liara. I would say she's the most important squadmate of the series, so she needs to be established solidly as a character. Having her on the squad ASAP makes sure that happens. Makes sure she was present for the events of ME 1. Allows her to talk about ME 1 in the sequels without the developers having to deal with players who didn't recruit her until the end. Of course, it also makes sure the player has plenty of opportunity to romance her and doesn't accidently miss a love interest or content with Benezia.

Secondly, the narrative flow is much better.

Going from Feros to Virmire to Noveria is by far the best introduction to indoctrination. It flows much better. You have Shiala hint at it on Feros without really revealing much. Then the salarians talk about it more on Virmire and see it as a much more serious threat. Then finally, Benezia on Noveria flat-out revealing it's exact details and how it works.

The main plotline towards the Conduit is also much better. With Noveria last, the player finds out what they need and then finds out where and how to get it. That's much better then the player knowing where they need to do but not knowing what they need in the first place.

Also, I very much like the flow of starting out on an abandoned mining site, then moving to a small colony, then moving to a settlement with a little more infrastruture, then moving to the very developed Noveria. The surroundings mirror the seriousness and intensity of the conflict. The setting consistantly 'moves up' as the conflict 'moves up.'

Lastly, trimming unnecessary choices and unimpactful choices allows richer options to be developed. In this case, dialogue. As it as now, if the player chooses randomly, there's only a 1 in 6 chance of being on Noveria after Virmire. So there's much less reason to put immersive dialogue in referencing the death of Kaidan and Ashley. Now it's 100%, and it becomes much more practical to put such dialogue in. In addition, it becomes enormously easier to have about conversations with previous characters and referencing known information. Shepard could have entire conversations based on what the player learned in previous missions instead of just a quip.

Modifié par David7204, 23 août 2013 - 10:46 .

[Br3admax]

We talk a lot about BioWare's mediocre writing, but it's almost top notch compared to what I see above this post.

Modifié par Br3ad, 23 août 2013 - 12:34 .

[AresKeith]

Anyway to get this back on topic that David obviously derailed for his own personal gain

Jacob had a lot of potential

[Ravellion]

Robosexual wrote...

Ravellion wrote...

On my latest playthrough, I just noticed he was wrong/stupid all the time.
On finding Legion: "I've seen enough of these things on Eden Prime. Space it" (cash bounty from cerberus makes more sense than just "spacing it")
Thane: "I don't trust mercenaries." "He is doing this mission gratis, he might surprise you." "yeah, well, he might not"
After the collector ship, Miranda counsels that we should build the team. Jacob "We need the IFf sooner or later. Why wait?"
Duct mission "Sounds like a suicide mission. I volunteer."
And he doesn't want to wake up grunt either.

In every one of these cases, your success chance of the suicide mission would go down if you listen to his advice. Doing everything opposite of what Jacob says (waking Legion and Grunt, trusting Thane, don't send him through the ducts, waiting with the IFF) will simply lead to better results.

I'm pretty sure waiting with the IFF gets your crew killed.

It's the exact opposite. As soon as you go to the derelict reaper, you have a chance each mission that your crew will be abducted before you have all loyal specialists. Leaving the derelict reaper till late or the very end is the only way to get a perfect run with crew and specialists all alive.

[Hadeedak]

I love Jacob. He's big, he's pretty, and he's not that interested in spilling his guts to Shepard, I like that he keeps something back. He also gave the impression during his romance that he's wholeheartedly committed (lol), and that most of the reason to pick Jacob is for Shepard to have a solid, reliable partner who actually asks how she's doing.

Also, he hit himself in the face with a krogan using pull on Omega and 'died' immediately, which made me laugh so hard I had to pause.

Counts against him are pretty much that he isn't inclined to change, not very open, and shares with Miranda the tendency to give advice that will flat out kill your squad. Also he mutters about all your recruits. And he dies more than an unmicro-managed Liara in ME3 on me. (Where's Jacob? Way over there and ...dead. Where's Liara? Oh, look, covered in husks. And dead.)

And if you romance him (actually a pretty fun choice in 2; I highly suggest it if you haven't), he probably shouldn't make it through the suicide mission, both for the PATHOS and also because he is replaced by mirror universe antiJacob, who only lacks a goatee to prove my theory.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 23 août 2013 - 01:57 .

[KaiserShep]

Ravellion wrote...
It's the exact opposite. As soon as you go
to the derelict reaper, you have a chance each mission that your crew
will be abducted before you have all loyal specialists. Leaving the
derelict reaper till late or the very end is the only way to get a
perfect run with crew and specialists all alive.

To be fair regarding the IFF, there's no way he can know about the viral trap it sets in the Normandy. I've always seen this as more of a meta-gaming decision, because the dialogue in the conference room makes it clear that this decision seems more substantial, and that's really the only reason why I avoided it as long as I could in my first playthrough, even having no idea what getting it early would do. Regarding his insistence that he go into the ducts, it doesn't really matter if he's wrong, because the mission itself would still be accomplished. Even he says it's pretty much suicide, so he just accepts that he'll probably die to help finish off the Collectors.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 23 août 2013 - 02:05 .

[KaiserShep]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

So, um, we still talkin' 'bout Jacob here?

Because he is honestly an underrated character. He is the most straightforward and honest member of the SR2 crew, and talking to him was fun because he hardly had the melodrama that went on with the other characters.

And squad incendiary ammo? Beast.

I agree. He had the least amount of baggage, and the majority of this dialogue involved getting right down to business. And it really is helpful to have him around to share incendiary ammo when I set mine to explosive, and it makes it all the better when he accompanies Shepard and Miranda for the final push to the central chamber, which I feel is the most fitting way to cap off the game thematically.

[LiL Reapur]

The Mad Hanar wrote...

And squad incendiary ammo? Beast.

Indeed....

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

I think Kaidan is actually the most interesting and likeable of the human characters while Jacob is just a dull cardbord cut-out. Yes there was potential with his character as Bioware had set lots of potential conflicts and issues up, but nothings comes of it.

[SilentK]

 Ahh, Jacob.

I miss the old Jacob-thread, there were some nice people in it, true that we were not that many but we had nice discussions about him. Remember wondering about what kind of story he would have in ME3, I was hoping he would pull strings and get the corsairs up and running perhaps. And I really enjoyed his romance, tend to go for guys who are a little bit more stable and calm like Kaidan and Jacob. Fenris and Anders are a bit too much drama for me. He just gave such a solid and trustworthy impression to me in ME2. Like he was not looking for something just for the night, he was the first one to ask FemShep how she was holding up and that he loved her. I was completely sold.

Well... ME3 is actually one of my favorite games but for a FemShep that romanced Jacob life is a bit special to say the least. From Jacob's 180-turn to FemShep begging for sex during an evacuation, it wasn't pretty. At least you could tell him off in the Citadel-dlc. 

One day I will probably romance him again with a FemShep because I think he is a great guy in ME2. Him surviving the SM is another story. I don't recognize Jacob in ME3, he was so driven prior ME2 with all the things he had done. It just all fizzles out in ME3. Rather remember him as he was then.

Modifié par SilentK, 23 août 2013 - 06:13 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Jacob.... Oh how as fem-shep I hated talking to thee. The coaching was so bad. See, Jacob was the "beat the player of fem-shep over the head" THIS is your romance for the game. I think Hale's coach was telling her "your pants are on fire for him" when she delivered that line of "I want to just talk for a bit."

Kaidan was dead. So , I romanced him. Then in ME3, I got the "yeah, I met Bryn." I went full renegade and picked control. The Illusive Man was right after all.

[KaiserShep]

StreetMagic wrote...

Is there unique dialogue if that happens? I think it works cool with Jack, when she says TIM is just using you, and Miranda herself resigns. To me, they're the two "compasses" on Cerberus. Not Jacob. Jacob doesn't really know what he wants.

Jack definitely works too, but the way I see it, Jacob and Miranda were there for Shepard's first mission, so it seemed appropriate that they both be there for the final mission too.

[Jukaga]

I just stop talking to him as femshep after the first couple of convos in ME2 because there is NO WAY
to not flirt with him. The brothers-in-arms relationship he gets with sheploo is much better and more palatable to watch. It's a pity there was no clear platonic relationship choice with femshep because I don't mind him at all, he has an interesting backstory.

Modifié par Jukaga, 23 août 2013 - 08:51 .

[Argentoid]

I prefer Kaidan as a bro rather than Jacob. Kaidan in ME3 is waaaay cooler than he was in ME1. 

Modifié par Argentoid, 24 août 2013 - 12:57 .

[Hadeedak]

StreetMagic wrote...

I think if I ever play a Femshep, I'd romance Liara (not out of lesbian fantasy.. it just sounds more fulfilling).

If you want fufilling, it's Garrus, TBH. Unlike Liara, he never forgets you two are an item. 

But sticking to one romance (and gender) is for squares.

And Jacob rocks. He's supersweet (in ME2). And not completely bonkers. Which is nice.

[Omega Torsk]

David7204 wrote...

My words aren't meant to be creative. They're meant to be the truth. And they are.

Can I get this printed on a T-shirt?

Anyway, as I was saying before this thread was hijacked by yet another David debate ™, Jacob's character never seemed to rub me the right way. Throughout the game, he's always hesistant to open up and when he does, it is very vanilla. He never seems to form an attachment towards Shepard, whether romanced or not. He just seems to be there for the sake of being the polar opposite of Miranda... also, he loved to add his commentary (intentionally mocking Tali and being rude to Thane from the get-go didn't really help my feelings on his character, either).

It really wasn't until 3 that I decided I really didn't like him. His treatment of romanced femshep aside, he seems to hold himself to this unreachable standard. His entire dialogue on Arrae was aking to, "Look at me, Sheaprd! I'm doing such important work! And as a side note, I'm bangin' the lead scientist because I want to have a meaningful relationship and start a family!" Shepard is like, "Yeah, I get that, too!" Jacob retorts, "NO SHUPURD! Teh Normanded is ur true love! Only I can have meaning as deep as this!"

Modifié par Omega Torsk, 24 août 2013 - 01:45 .

[Xilizhra]

David7204 wrote...

Here are some reasons why this is a good idea.

First of all, is removes discrepancies with Liara. I would say she's the most important squadmate of the series, so she needs to be established solidly as a character. Having her on the squad ASAP makes sure that happens. Makes sure she was present for the events of ME 1. Allows her to talk about ME 1 in the sequels without the developers having to deal with players who didn't recruit her until the end. Of course, it also makes sure the player has plenty of opportunity to romance her and doesn't accidently miss a love interest or content with Benezia.

Secondly, the narrative flow is much better.

Going from Feros to Virmire to Noveria is by far the best introduction to indoctrination. It flows much better. You have Shiala hint at it on Feros without really revealing much. Then the salarians talk about it more on Virmire and see it as a much more serious threat. Then finally, Benezia on Noveria flat-out revealing it's exact details and how it works.

The main plotline towards the Conduit is also much better. With Noveria last, the player finds out what they need and then finds out where and how to get it. That's much better then the player knowing where they need to do but not knowing what they need in the first place.

Also, I very much like the flow of starting out on an abandoned mining site, then moving to a small colony, then moving to a settlement with a little more infrastruture, then moving to the very developed Noveria. The surroundings mirror the seriousness and intensity of the conflict. The setting consistantly 'moves up' as the conflict 'moves up.'

Lastly, trimming unnecessary choices and unimpactful choices allows richer options to be developed. In this case, dialogue. As it as now, if the player chooses randomly, there's only a 1 in 6 chance of being on Noveria after Virmire. So there's much less reason to put immersive dialogue in referencing the death of Kaidan and Ashley. Now it's 100%, and it becomes much more practical to put such dialogue in. In addition, it becomes enormously easier to have about conversations with previous characters and referencing known information. Shepard could have entire conversations based on what the player learned in previous missions instead of just a quip.

I respect your thought processes, but I've always done it Therum-Noveria-Feros-Virmire. Noveria's atmosphere overall feels too calm to be the final mission. Therum has little urgency apart from geth fighting you, Noveria has a bit more but is more of a quiet mystery to be unraveled, Feros involves an outright colony defense, and Virmire is a critical struggle for survival. Additionally, I believe that Benezia has more of an impact if you fight her believing that she's in this for herself, and only find out after her doom that she was forced into it. Shiala gives the game away if you do Feros first. Finally, I think Virmire's impact is biggest if it comes last, overall.

So unless you agree with my mission order... that, then, is why there's choice in doing so.

Now, Jacob. He's the "human male soldier" type, the kind with few actual conflicts or emotion to get in the way of being there and bland. Jacob is the middle of the road between Kaidan, who had some interesting traits, and Knob Beefbroth, who was not only not interesting himself but sort of sucked away interestingness from other people and stole a squad spot that others may have occupied. Jacob was dull for reasons previously mentioned, but tolerable.

[The Night Mammoth]

Knob Beefbroth? That's... creative.

[Xilizhra]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Knob Beefbroth? That's... creative.

Sadly, no. I have a whole list, and it wasn't my original idea.