74 réponses à ce sujet

[atum]

QTEs are the ultimate console dumbdown.

That said, ME 2/3 interrupts were the only time I have seem them used effectively.

I'd be OK with them if done well (interrupts for story-telling), and not as an action gameplay element.

But it's funny how many people seem to think there is some magical special new way to handle interrupts. Sylvius's idea is basically the normal dialog wheel with an auto dialog option that defaults to 'off'.

Mostly though, I hope the team doesnt get bogged down in this kind of rehash of standard gameplay elements. Especially abstract perceptual differences that amount to the same thing (is it auto-dialog or an un-paused QTE?), rather than practical gameplay elements.

Also hope none of this would paint them into a corner, getting stuck having to record 50 versions of the same phrase. Basically, just use the regular dialogue wheel and be done with it. A few QTEs like ME 2 are fine, but whatever they do, dont do this:

(an example of how badly this can go wrong)

Modifié par atum, 25 août 2013 - 01:52 .

[cindercatz]

One thing I think is getting a little bit lost is that the reaction wheel idea is meant to apply only in specific circumstances in the story, not regular dialogue. It's a way to give a little bit of control to the player in situations that would otherwise be more like ME3's use of emotion (which I'm fine with, but some people aren't). It's supposed to give control in areas that would otherwise be auto-dialogue, not a facial expression setter.

edit: What I, personally, think is cool about it is that when you have more physicality in the story telling, which we should, it might also mean you get an altered cut-scene, that's more in line with the degree to which you want to react. It's not dimplomatic/agrressive. It's rage/confusion/horror/stunned. I think that's cool.

Modifié par cindercatz, 25 août 2013 - 12:02 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Wulfram wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

Sylvius mentioned an auto-pause option, which solves this entire problem.

But adds the additional problem of whether you want to put the scene on hold for a rather minor input

Because it would be an option, that can be decided player-by-player.

Players who don't want to interrupt the flow of the scene for a "minor" input can not do that.  Players like me, on the other hand, who deny that any input is minor, will want the game to pause for pretty much everything.

[Sylvius the Mad]

slimgrin wrote...

Won't work for a TP game and you know it. They have to implement this aspect into cutscenes.

Those scenes can solicit player input.  I described such a mechanic above.

[TuringPoint]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Alocormin wrote...

I was also thinking, but didn't get around to suggesting, that these emotions could have a relationship with the tone of the character as it has been roleplayed so far.

That's a bad idea because there's no way it can be specific enough. It's just like the dominant tone system: just because I'm nice to nobles and my comrades doesn't mean the game should automatically force me into being nice (through autodialog or choice wheels) to slavers and blood mages.

This cannot be done truly effectively yet, and likely won't be able to for a long while.

"It's a bad idea" could suggest that my suggestion is not internally logical, but it is. I was specifically thinking of DA2 as inspiration for this, since "tone" is used as a description for that system of leading the default tone of the main character.  

My suggestion is practical, but flawed or deserving of further refinement.  So kind of you to notice. I was just speculating and shooting the breeze on how more customization of a player's character could be introduced.

You could maintain that any attempt to make a player character relatable is false unless the PC is a blank slate without any emotion;  but what you say indicates no such agenda.  It's fine if that's what you believe, but I wasn't arguing with what you believe - if that is even what you believe.

If you want to argue that, I will.  I believe that in order for continued use of text-only PC speech, video games need to go back to text-only dialogue, period, with occasional interjections of voiced dialogue for emphasis and inspiration in the player's own imagination.  At least, that's how I feel about this.

To be honest I'm not even sure whether I am "for" this particular feature being included, but it was an interesting enough suggestion to spark some imagination and thought, and I just wanted to share :8

If you are intending to be inflammatory, Angel, this is your last chance to stop trying that with me 

Modifié par Alocormin, 26 août 2013 - 03:36 .

[Obrusnine]

What I think would actually be the best way is to just let your decisions do the talking. If you act like an emotionless jerk all the time, then neutral. If you're common to giving into your emotions, sadness or anger. You know, something that feels natural and gives my decisions a bit more weight in how my character handles themselves.

[Star fury]

Yeah, definitely want something like paragon/renegade interrupts and/or dialogue options.
Punching admiral Han'Gerrel was one of the most satisfying moments in ME3.

[Obrusnine]

Star fury wrote...

Yeah, definitely want something like paragon/renegade interrupts and/or dialogue options.
Punching admiral Han'Gerrel was one of the most satisfying moments in ME3

I'll admit, I was a Paragon and even I did it. And that SOB deserved every painful second.

Modifié par Obrusnine, 26 août 2013 - 03:30 .

[Zu Long]

Star fury wrote...

Yeah, definitely want something like paragon/renegade interrupts and/or dialogue options.
Punching admiral Han'Gerrel was one of the most satisfying moments in ME3.

+1. I don't think any video game moment has topped the sheer visceral satisfaction of that moment. I've never wanted to deck anyone as badly as I wanted Shepard to knock Han's lights out after he fired on the dreadnought.

[Star fury]

Obrusnine wrote...

I'll admit, I was a Paragon and even I did it. And that SOB deserved every painful second.

 
Even galaxy saviour's patience has it's limits. 

[snackrat]

They could have it reacting to your movement controls (WASD usually, or ESDF). A little prompt icon appears when a reaction is available, and you hit a key tied to your reaction. The overall feel of the emotion would be the same, just nuance depending on content.

eg:
W: 'happy'. Affection, laughter, comforting smiles, bad jokes etc as appropriate. HIGH-FIVE PEOPLE YES and charm
A: 'anger'. Scowling, yelling, fury, PUNCHING PEOPLE YES and intimidate
S: 'sad'. Downcast eyes, sighs, grief, worry, disappointment. HUG IT OUT WITH PEOPLE YES and negotiate
D: 'disgust'. Facepalm, eye-roll, sneers, SPIT ON PEOPLE YES and shame/embaress
...wait until prompt passes for stoic reactions, or alternatively, deadpan shock (since those who miss the prompt will likely do so from suprise!). AWKWARDLY STARE AT PEOPLE YES and no negotiation bonus for you

Unlike pausing the game to choose, it retains narritive flow.
Unlike paragon/renegade, it has more options (technically, five).
The keys are the natural resting place for typical gamers, so response times can be very rapid.
It encourages people to actually react naturally instead of picking and choosin 'what facial expression is least likely to ****** this guy off'.
WHICH COULD ALSO BE AWESOME if they recognised it, like "I see you are disgusted by what I've done here, but I assure you it is only because you are ignorant of its purpose. You see: SCIENCE AND STUFF."

Also unlike paragon/renegade, it follows emotion rather than personal philosophy so the reaction is more predictable (for renegade, you might be yelling at a person to shut up... or you might just shoot them. Whoops. (ooh so you're going to sabotage the Blue Suns mech with the shoc-- okay so no you just killed him painfully, okay then)


EDIT: some examples!
For example with death of Shamus is DAE when talking to the Viscount:
W: comforting, support
A: aggression to attacker (scream about chantry etc)
S: distraught (noooooo Shamus)
D: this is your fault for your incompetence
x: awkwardly shuffle while he cries you monster

...and if someone teases you when you slip up
W: laughter, oh you scamp
A: offended, how dare you, I am the best
S: (oh my god he's right I DO fail at everything)
D: dude have you no class some of my best FRIENDS are failures at everything you can't say that
x: stare at him "well nevermind then PC, I thought it was funny, pff"

...we are going to the pub
W: oh hell yeah drinking
A: what the hell guys we're a team stop having fun guys this is serious
S: I'm not in the mood for drinking "na man if you're sad you're in the BEST mood for drinking cmon"
D: guys that pub is crap and the drink is crappier, show some class, gawd
x: ...*squaddies just wave at you and leave*

...in general
W: assertive
A: aggressive
S: submissive
D: superior
x: passive

Modifié par Karsciyin, 26 août 2013 - 05:58 .

[Karach_Blade]

^ THIS

[Doveberry]

^ Agreed.

[Parmida]

^ YES.

[Beerfish]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


Okay, so imagine there's a cutscene, and an interrupt icon appears, just like ME2.

The player can, just like ME2, ignore the icon.  The scene will then play out normally.  Alternatively, the player can, just like ME2, trigger the interrupt, and thus get to see a modified scene.

Let's add a third option - the option to pause the scene.  We should even make this a possible auto-pause option, so for some players the scene would always pause here.  Now, with the scene paused, the player can consider his choice.  If he wants, he can trigger the interrupt while paused.  If he doesn't want to, he can unpause and resume the unmodified scene.  We've just eliminated the timing component.

But that's not enough.  The player still doesn't know what the interrupt will entail.  So, let's create an option to investigate the interrupt's content.  Obviously, with the regular interrupts, there's no time for the player to examine anything more detailed than a Paragon or Renegade icon, so without the pausing this wouldn't make any sense, but now that we're paused let's let the player see what is effectively a dialogue option where he can read a text description of the actions the interrupt will trigger.

Now, with more detailed knowledge of what the interrupt would entail, the player can make an informed decision about whether to trigger it.  If he would rather the scene continue without his intervention, he can still just unpause the game and let the scene proceed.  If, he can trigger the interrupt, more confident that it is what he wants.

That's how you implement ME2-style interrupts in an roleplaying-friendly way.

This would totally blow away the game flow for me.  you may as well just auto save before every cutscene so the person can go back if they don't like the scene they just chose.

[Secretlyapotato]

I would've liked my Hawkes to cry when their mom died.

[Regan Cousland]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In ME 2 and 3, they had the paragon and renegade interrupt. They could happen at any time during a conversation or an in-engine 'cutscene,' allowing your character to react with the usual pause of conversation.

I was wondering if DA:I could create something like this in regards to emotion. Say you come upon a scene of carnage and the camera pans to take it in along with your companion's reaction. Usually, the PC is given a neutral expression, but what if there was a small pop up that allowed you to express anger or grief.

Not to talk or act, but to simply change the Inquisitor's facial expressions and/or body language.

I don't think you need to introduce a gameplay mechanic to do something as trival as alter a character's facial expression.

The character's expression should be dictated by the character's personality.

If most of your dialogue choices have been kind up until that point, the character should look sad and sympathetic when viewing a tragic scene.

If you've been more selfish and aggressive, the character should regard the same scene with cold indifference.

If you've been cracking jokes every two minutes, your character should look slightly sad but raise an ironic eyebrow, as if to say, "Ah, life. It does suck sometimes."" 

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 26 août 2013 - 03:45 .

[TheKomandorShepard]

Regan Cousland wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

In ME 2 and 3, they had the paragon and renegade interrupt. They could happen at any time during a conversation or an in-engine 'cutscene,' allowing your character to react with the usual pause of conversation.

I was wondering if DA:I could create something like this in regards to emotion. Say you come upon a scene of carnage and the camera pans to take it in along with your companion's reaction. Usually, the PC is given a neutral expression, but what if there was a small pop up that allowed you to express anger or grief.

Not to talk or act, but to simply change the Inquisitor's facial expressions and/or body language.

I don't think you need to introduce a gameplay mechanic to do something as trival as alter a character's facial expression.

The character's expression should be dictated by the character's personality.

If most of your dialogue choices have been kind up until that point, the character should look sad and sympathetic when viewing a tragic scene.

If you've been more selfish and aggressive, the character should regard the same scene with cold indifference.

If you've been cracking jokes every two minutes, your character should look slightly sad but raise an ironic eyebrow, as if to say, "Ah, life. It does suck sometimes."" 

Personalities work bad already in da 2 when you want be bad guy and selfish you had to be aggressive but where is place for cold heartless mercenary who always is calm and prefers think and manipulate others but when you want be good guy you have to be too kind and supportive towards most characters even if you don't agree with their actions if you want disagree then you have to be agressive di*** .

Besides why nice person who care about others but hate one character should be sad because that character died or nice person can't be "ok they died i will do better next time but this is life mourning is meaningless"

And why bastard or jerk can't care about that one person who died?

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 26 août 2013 - 04:10 .

[Regan Cousland]

@TheKomandorShepard

I do agree. The dialogue wheel felt incredibly limiting in DA2.

I didn't want my Hawke to be a comedian, but I found myself telling stupid jokes all the time because I didn't want to be an angry a-hole or Mother Teresea, either.

There should be more options. Most of the time I want to be non-commital, as I would be in real life. If somebody asks me for help, I want to say, "Maybe. What's in it for me?" Not "Of course, dear lady" or "Do I look like a charity? Haha!" or "Be gone, vermin!"

Modifié par Regan Cousland, 26 août 2013 - 04:11 .

[Taleroth]

Star fury wrote...

Yeah, definitely want something like paragon/renegade interrupts and/or dialogue options.
Punching admiral Han'Gerrel was one of the most satisfying moments in ME3.

That looks like such a weak punch. No follow through at all.

[Regan Cousland]

I couldn't punch Han'Gerrel, because sacrificing one or two lives to a win a war is something my paragade Shepard would have done as well.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Beerfish wrote...

This would totally blow away the game flow for me.

That's why it was optional, Beerfish.  The system I proposed didn't take anything away from you - you could still enjoy them in exactly the same way as ME2 cutscenes+interrupts.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Secretlyapotato wrote...

I would've liked my Hawkes to cry when their mom died.

But
having all Hawkes react in the same way is a terrible idea, which is
why we need to choose to cry (or not) as befits that character.

Karsciyin wrote...

-snip-

If you make it not timing-based, then we can talk.

Timing-based is a non-starter.

[Patchwork]

I wouldn't mind an interrupt system as long as it has a tag telling me what that action is going to be. That the Han Gerrel one was going to be a punch was telegraphed because the camera focused on Shepard's clenched fist but half the time I had no idea what an interrupt would do. ME3s auto-dialogue was bad enough without adding OOC interrupts too.