102 réponses à ce sujet

[KiwiQuiche]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mages are brainwashed daily into thinking they are horrid monsters who deserve to be locked up and should never be proud of their abilities or think of themselves as deserving freedom or equal treatment. Never underestimate propaganda.

This statement is 95.8% bovine fecal matter, and .8 percent factual information.

Your jackass is showing.

Mages are told constantly magic is to serve man, never rule over. There's an entire religion- the most popular one in Thedas- which is all 'mages are evil'. They are locked up in fancy prisons, watched 24/7 by heavily armed drug addicts and constantly told how they're dangerous, borderline sub-human monsters all the time. And you don't think that's propaganda and degrading?

So mages should allow magic to rule over them, and listen to what the whispering demons tell them to do in their dreams.

Good to know.

Lol way to pull assumptions out of your ass.

And please, tell me where I said all mages should let themselves get possessed by demons.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 août 2013 - 05:35 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

From a lore perspective I really don't like how no one has ever explained how Templars are able to disrupt magic.

Non-mages can have magical abilities. Did you not notice the Warrior specialization where you can absorb the life force of your enemies?

Mages cast spells by channeling energies from the Fade. We know every living creature is in contact with the Fade. Mages take lyrium to increase their mana. Tempars need lyrium to utilize their abilities*.

There even seem to be magical animals.

* And before anyone mentiones Alistiar, he's a Theirin. They've revealed his bloodline is super magical and revives dragons or something. That's the reason he didn't need lyrium.

That Warrior specialization (Reaver) is unlocked by performing a ritual that is magical in nature meaning the magic doesn't come from them but from that ritual. Lyrium doesn't do anything for a Templar except make them into a drug addict. Templars are able to use their abilities without Lyrium at all. The only reason people think they need it is because the Chantry needs an excuse for why they're doping up their men.

Again dwarves are removed from the Fade as much as any living thing can be yet they can still use Templar abilities and the Warden can use Templar abilities and they aren't a special Theirin.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Anyway, I chuck the lack of templars we see being due to the technological and financial cost of creating and rendering a large amount of people in 1 area. It's why there's not more than 100 people in any given city or location, no matter how much a crowded area or bustling metropolis it was meant to be.

[Cainhurst Crow]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mages are brainwashed daily into thinking they are horrid monsters who deserve to be locked up and should never be proud of their abilities or think of themselves as deserving freedom or equal treatment. Never underestimate propaganda.

This statement is 95.8% bovine fecal matter, and .8 percent factual information.

Your jackass is showing.

Mages are told constantly magic is to serve man, never rule over. There's an entire religion- the most popular one in Thedas- which is all 'mages are evil'. They are locked up in fancy prisons, watched 24/7 by heavily armed drug addicts and constantly told how they're dangerous, borderline sub-human monsters all the time. And you don't think that's propaganda and degrading?

So mages should allow magic to rule over them, and listen to what the whispering demons tell them to do in their dreams.

Good to know.

Lol way to pull assumptions out of your ass.

Like the assumption that mages would be A-okay on their own, not taken to the circle to recieve training for their powers, and have the safety in the hands of magic-negating guardians whose job it is to protect the other mages from ones who become abominations due to demons attacking their dreams, and chucking everything down to a 2 dimensional probelm of "It's all the chantry's fault"?

[KiwiQuiche]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mages are brainwashed daily into thinking they are horrid monsters who deserve to be locked up and should never be proud of their abilities or think of themselves as deserving freedom or equal treatment. Never underestimate propaganda.

This statement is 95.8% bovine fecal matter, and .8 percent factual information.

Your jackass is showing.

Mages are told constantly magic is to serve man, never rule over. There's an entire religion- the most popular one in Thedas- which is all 'mages are evil'. They are locked up in fancy prisons, watched 24/7 by heavily armed drug addicts and constantly told how they're dangerous, borderline sub-human monsters all the time. And you don't think that's propaganda and degrading?

So mages should allow magic to rule over them, and listen to what the whispering demons tell them to do in their dreams.

Good to know.

Lol way to pull assumptions out of your ass.

Like the assumption that mages would be A-okay on their own, not taken to the circle to recieve training for their powers, and have the safety in the hands of magic-negating guardians whose job it is to protect the other mages from ones who become abominations due to demons attacking their dreams, and chucking everything down to a 2 dimensional probelm of "It's all the chantry's fault"?

You assumed I made that assumption. Which I didn't.

I disagree with locking mages up in a prison; make it like Hogwarts or some crap, where it's more like a Boarding School.

Templars are drug-addicts and having people watched constantly by said drug-addicts tends to put them on edge.

Where did I state "everything mages do it's because of the chantry'? I was talking about their realized power.
Seriously, you keep on pulling these out of no where.

[Cainhurst Crow]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Mages are brainwashed daily into thinking they are horrid monsters who deserve to be locked up and should never be proud of their abilities or think of themselves as deserving freedom or equal treatment. Never underestimate propaganda.

This statement is 95.8% bovine fecal matter, and .8 percent factual information.

Your jackass is showing.

Mages are told constantly magic is to serve man, never rule over. There's an entire religion- the most popular one in Thedas- which is all 'mages are evil'. They are locked up in fancy prisons, watched 24/7 by heavily armed drug addicts and constantly told how they're dangerous, borderline sub-human monsters all the time. And you don't think that's propaganda and degrading?

So mages should allow magic to rule over them, and listen to what the whispering demons tell them to do in their dreams.

Good to know.

Lol way to pull assumptions out of your ass.

Like the assumption that mages would be A-okay on their own, not taken to the circle to recieve training for their powers, and have the safety in the hands of magic-negating guardians whose job it is to protect the other mages from ones who become abominations due to demons attacking their dreams, and chucking everything down to a 2 dimensional probelm of "It's all the chantry's fault"?

You assumed I made that assumption. Which I didn't.

I disagree with locking mages up in a prison; make it like Hogwarts or some crap, where it's more like a Boarding School.

Templars are drug-addicts and having people watched constantly by said drug-addicts tends to put them on edge.

Where did I state "everything mages do it's because of the chantry'? I was talking about their realized power.
Seriously, you keep on pulling these out of no where.

I don't know if you realize this, but the world of the harry potter universe is pretty much a sad world for anyone who doesn't have magic. Your goverment is basically a puppet goverment for the true magical one, and you need to answer to them constantly, and expect them to suddenly come out of the fireplace to tell you what you need to tell the public in order to lie to them. Normal muggles are viewed as lesser beings by the majority of the wizarding community, who lives in their highly isolationist world and control affairs from there.

When people with phenomenal powers, come into contact with individuals without any powers, the ones with powers will always win. That is why in the dragon age universe, every country who doesn't follow the circle method is controlled by a upper elite class composed of magic users who control everything and everyone with an iron fist.

You basically went on a long diatride condeming the chantry as nothing more than a propoganda machine who convinced everyone mages are evil, and tells mages they are bad and should feel bad. Such a system would promote the less strong mages to turn to becoming abominations and cruel people, as their magical gifts make them a monster, because you claimed the chantry tells them they are monsters. Basically every negative aspect of the circles and mages, you blamed on the chantry and it's so called "propoganda" in saying mages should not be the rulers of man, and that their gifts don't make them better than everyone else, and at times can be a curse..

And on the subject of the templars, the reason they take lyrium is that it is the only method that allows them to combat magic on any sort of level playing field. Otherwise, they'd all end up like these fine qunari whenever they went after a rouge mage.



They are willing to sacrifice their health and eventual well being in order to protect others from rouge mages and abominations. Calling them drug addicts is a disgraceful tactic and little more than an attempt to midigate the sacrifice they take in fighting for normal people against the prospect of a nightmareish hellscape world ruled by demons, or the rise of a new mage controlled goverment order.

[The Hierophant]

Ultimashade wrote...

Its solid state causes dementia in non-mages, and death in mages.

True, but from a lore pov you'd expect raw lyrium to deaden magic, like a shield or sword that's coated in lyrium dust being able to disperse or negate magic in few meters radius around the wielder, or on contact.

[dragondreamer]

The Harry Potter world is more like a universe where the Isolationists won out.

[KiwiQuiche]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Like the assumption that mages would be A-okay on their own, not taken to the circle to recieve training for their powers, and have the safety in the hands of magic-negating guardians whose job it is to protect the other mages from ones who become abominations due to demons attacking their dreams, and chucking everything down to a 2 dimensional probelm of "It's all the chantry's fault"?

You assumed I made that assumption. Which I didn't.

I disagree with locking mages up in a prison; make it like Hogwarts or some crap, where it's more like a Boarding School.

Templars are drug-addicts and having people watched constantly by said drug-addicts tends to put them on edge.

Where did I state "everything mages do it's because of the chantry'? I was talking about their realized power.
Seriously, you keep on pulling these out of no where.

I don't know if you realize this, but the world of the harry potter universe is pretty much a sad world for anyone who doesn't have magic. Your goverment is basically a puppet goverment for the true magical one, and you need to answer to them constantly, and expect them to suddenly come out of the fireplace to tell you what you need to tell the public in order to lie to them. Normal muggles are viewed as lesser beings by the majority of the wizarding community, who lives in their highly isolationist world and control affairs from there.

When people with phenomenal powers, come into contact with individuals without any powers, the ones with powers will always win. That is why in the dragon age universe, every country who doesn't follow the circle method is controlled by a upper elite class composed of magic users who control everything and everyone with an iron fist.

You basically went on a long diatride condeming the chantry as nothing more than a propoganda machine who convinced everyone mages are evil, and tells mages they are bad and should feel bad. Such a system would promote the less strong mages to turn to becoming abominations and cruel people, as their magical gifts make them a monster, because you claimed the chantry tells them they are monsters. Basically every negative aspect of the circles and mages, you blamed on the chantry and it's so called "propoganda" in saying mages should not be the rulers of man, and that their gifts don't make them better than everyone else, and at times can be a curse..

And on the subject of the templars, the reason they take lyrium is that it is the only method that allows them to combat magic on any sort of level playing field. Otherwise, they'd all end up like these fine qunari whenever they went after a rouge mage.



They are willing to sacrifice their health and eventual well being in order to protect others from rouge mages and abominations. Calling them drug addicts is a disgraceful tactic and little more than an attempt to midigate the sacrifice they take in fighting for normal people against the prospect of a nightmareish hellscape world ruled by demons, or the rise of a new mage controlled goverment order.

I said HOGWARTS. Not the "rest of the wizard world including all the problems with their govenment and the whole pureblood/mudblood problems." I meant as in the way Hogwarts teaches, not all that other crap.

What about the Chasind? The Rivain folk? They have magical people in power, yet they don't go all Tevinter on their asses. Using Tevinter as an umbrella for "if mages come into power it would always be like this" is silly. I could easily point out Antiva as a crap place to live since 'muggle' assassins control everything and treat the commoners/nobles like chess peices and disposable bodies.

The chantry is that. It's PART of the problem. Not the "everthing is the chantrys fault" that you assumed I was meaning. The chantry teaches all those problems and treats the mages like criminals for being born. It is part of the problem.

I can't get over that guy's hilarious zappy eyes. It's like a primeval Cyclops. And said Magister was hilariously overpowered at that point with the whole dragon-blood crap so he can't be counted as a 'normal mage'

They are still drug addicts, which is obviously causing a crapload of trouble when they don't have loads of lyrium within reach. And normal people are perfectly capable of killing mages. A sword in the head would kill any human regardless of who uses it.

[General Malor]

Templars are trained to handle mages. They take lyrium which augments their being, though they become addicted to it, but there is a benefit. They are able to focus their lyrium-infused being to interrupt the abilities of mages. This doesn't mean they use magic themselves the way a mage does but it most certainly is a spell of a type. A Templar is able to resist magic and dispel it, that's all.

So by rendering a mage's abilities invalid you remove all the threat they possess because so few are capable beyond their magic.

And for Mages to be the "one in power" and with "phenomenal powers", it's true they are stronger than the average person. But that does not mean that a couple people or an assassin or even a good archer couldn't take them down. These people have a finite amount of magic they can do. There is a limit and it is fairly low. Sure, they can kill a few people who charge them, but they can't stop what they can't see.

Mages aren't unkillable so there is no reason to oppress them because they might be a danger to the populace. So is a good warrior. Or a psychopath. Mages aren't a supreme danger, so it's an invalid point. Paranoia lead to the oppression of mages, not the fact that otherwise they'd take over everything and be the Imperium all over again.

[TuringPoint]

 The mage's powers can be suppressed by Templar "magic".  Apparently it's potent enough there don't need to be too many Templars.  

Also, Templars are expensive.  They are bribed/enabled by Lyrium.  

As well... mages aren't unlimited in power.  Their artillery and protection can effectively act as many men might, but they tend not to be martially empowered, and they need blood magic to gain most of the more dangerous magical powers. 

Consider that, in real life, only  a small percentage is ever really violent or revolutionary.  If ten percent of Magi go bad, only one Templar is effectively needed for every ten magi.  Assuming the game mechanics are approximately correct - where a Templar can suppress the magic of one mage, or several mages that are standing close together or that are near by the templar.

Not all of that is logical, but it does explain, at least.

Modifié par Alocormin, 24 août 2013 - 06:33 .

[Cainhurst Crow]

Rivian? You meant he seers? The apostates who control the villages and train female mages to become seers, who in turn will grow up to control the country just as their teachers do now?

The chasind aren't even shown, and are barely covered in the codex. We don't know enough about them to make any sort of judgements one way or the other. We don't even know if their shamans who control their people are mages or not.

And it's still a system where people are decided to be in power not because of their hard work or talent, but because they were born with magic. In a fair society that includes superpowered individuals, those with the powers will always trump those who don't have the power, and rise to control and dominate them. Weather subtly like the seers, or outright like tevinter.

And the accounts of abominations that result in those not going to the circle or being lucky enough to find a none murderous apostate are clear. Meredith's sister killed 73 people before she was taken down, anders old cat killed 3 templars in the circle, a goddamn cat. Just imagine what an abomination with real power could actually accomplish if they weren't put down. I shudder at the thought.

[Boycott Bioware]

To answer the OP, it is like the zoo...you know the zoo?

There are a lot of dangerous animals in it, animals that are 10 times stronger than human, animals that can eat human, can rip human apart, animals that are poisonous that can kill human in a minute, animals that can squish human, ram human and break the bones, faster animals, flying animals that can poke the eyes...ect

But those animals do nothing to the zoo keeper...because they are fed, they are drugged, they are trained...when the trainer ask them to lift a ball with their nose, they will do it, everyone applause and they got the food...

That is why no Mages in the Tower do anything to the Templars

[n7stormrunner]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Rivian? You meant he seers? The apostates who control the villages and train female mages to become seers, who in turn will grow up to control the country just as their teachers do now?

The chasind aren't even shown, and are barely covered in the codex. We don't know enough about them to make any sort of judgements one way or the other. We don't even know if their shamans who control their people are mages or not.

And it's still a system where people are decided to be in power not because of their hard work or talent, but because they were born with magic. In a fair society that includes superpowered individuals, those with the powers will always trump those who don't have the power, and rise to control and dominate them. Weather subtly like the seers, or outright like tevinter.

And the accounts of abominations that result in those not going to the circle or being lucky enough to find a none murderous apostate are clear. Meredith's sister killed 73 people before she was taken down, anders old cat killed 3 templars in the circle, a goddamn cat. Just imagine what an abomination with real power could actually accomplish if they weren't put down. I shudder at the thought.

I'm going to say not nearly as much as you think and the grounds that there are still people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

Or maybe the majority of mages are just law abiding and really do want to just obey the laws and not cause trouble? Live peacefully as much as they can and go about their days undisturbed.

No need for maximum security treatment because the people they are guarding aren't generally out to be dangerous, but you still need at least some security presence for those who do seek to cause trouble.

[TuringPoint]

The extra-mortal power of mages does not make them immortal. They have abilities that are unthinkable for ordinary people, but they are still just people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

That's easy to say when you're not being surronded by a massive torrent of flames, your friend blowing up into a massive cloud if death, lightning and earthquakes going off everywhere, and all from the guy a football field away.

[Shadow Fox]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That's easy to say when you're not being surronded by a massive torrent of flames, your friend blowing up into a massive cloud if death, lightning and earthquakes going off everywhere, and all from the guy a football field away.

To be fair it's also easy to say mages need to be in Circles if you're a non mage.

[Kenny Da Finn]

Ok so this basically comes down to game resources. In the games it seems as though the numbers are even but in the lore this is not the case. Towers actually have a lot more Templars that you see in the game so the mages are outnumbered. Now to the more off topic discussion of why Templars can dispatch mages easily.
The answer is simply that they are trained specifically to do so like how a hunter is able kill a bear which in a fair fight would easily kill the hunter. Templars are trained to be able to disrupt magic and this ability is fuelled by lyrium. Without it they would be unable use the abilities to disrupt magic and would be just like a regular soldier. Templars have no need to be connected to the fade because their abilities are fuelled by lyrium this is why dwarves are still able to become templars.

[General Malor]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That's easy to say when you're not being surronded by a massive torrent of flames, your friend blowing up into a massive cloud if death, lightning and earthquakes going off everywhere, and all from the guy a football field away.

I think this falls down to a question of human rights, or basic rights for all races of Thedas, and it should start from there.

A general has just as much power to wipe out a village as a mage. A king can oppress people his people and force them to live as he sees fir if he's influential enough.

It's a debate regarding people vs power. Is it the power's fault or the persons? It's the same issue of blood magic.

[KiwiQuiche]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Rivian? You meant he seers? The apostates who control the villages and train female mages to become seers, who in turn will grow up to control the country just as their teachers do now?

The chasind aren't even shown, and are barely covered in the codex. We don't know enough about them to make any sort of judgements one way or the other. We don't even know if their shamans who control their people are mages or not.

And it's still a system where people are decided to be in power not because of their hard work or talent, but because they were born with magic. In a fair society that includes superpowered individuals, those with the powers will always trump those who don't have the power, and rise to control and dominate them. Weather subtly like the seers, or outright like tevinter.

And the accounts of abominations that result in those not going to the circle or being lucky enough to find a none murderous apostate are clear. Meredith's sister killed 73 people before she was taken down, anders old cat killed 3 templars in the circle, a goddamn cat. Just imagine what an abomination with real power could actually accomplish if they weren't put down. I shudder at the thought.

Where does it state that Rivian mages control the country with violence and kill anyone who disagrees with them? Because I'm getting that vibe from your "control the country"

What about the Dalish then? They are ruled by Mages, but they don't strut about enslaving and killing everyone, barring themselves. But that's due to social arrogance.

They're still people and since they have such skills they should put them to use rather than going about like muggles. Tevinter takes it too far, but the majority of the rest of Thedas go to the extreme oposite.

Meredith's sister was a ****** who got possessed. You seem to think I endorse mages getting possessed and going on murderous ramages.

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 24 août 2013 - 07:42 .

[Sharn01]

Darth Brotarian wrote...

Anyway, I chuck the lack of templars we see being due to the technological and financial cost of creating and rendering a large amount of people in 1 area. It's why there's not more than 100 people in any given city or location, no matter how much a crowded area or bustling metropolis it was meant to be.

I was going to make a responce but wanted to quote your post as its something I have brought up so many times and so many people just never seem to get it.  The player only ever encounters a tiny fraction of an existing population, dalish clans consist of more then 30 elves, cities consist of more then 80 people, and circle towers consist of more then 20 mages.

That being said, it was established in DA:O that Templars hunted mages in groups because mages where extremely dangerous and a lone templar was not likely to survive against a skilled mage, powerful mages often wiped out entire groups of Templars, and I am not just referring to Flemeth.  The Templars in DA:O shut down the weapon training program that was set up in the tower for mages very quickly because they where deathly afraid of the circle mages gaining any combat training. 

I have no idea why DA2 decided to go against the grain on this so much in cutscenes, and lets face it, no matter what happens in comics you cant take it seriously, how often have comics and cartoons thrown out the lore of a universe to tell a story, even if its their own established lore? 

What we know from the DA games though is that Templars possess some resistance to magic, they are not immune to it, but they are more resistant to it,and  Templars also have the ability to drain a mages mana, though they have to actually get close to the mage to do this, and poweful mages will probably take long time to fully drain.  That is all we know, and I no more believe that a Templar can make an explosion then I believe you can stun people by shouting at them or make an earthquake by punching the ground, yes, even in the DA universe.

Modifié par Sharn01, 24 août 2013 - 08:06 .

[Shadow Fox]

General Malor wrote...

Darth Brotarian wrote...

That's easy to say when you're not being surronded by a massive torrent of flames, your friend blowing up into a massive cloud if death, lightning and earthquakes going off everywhere, and all from the guy a football field away.

I think this falls down to a question of human rights, or basic rights for all races of Thedas, and it should start from there.

A general has just as much power to wipe out a village as a mage. A king can oppress people his people and force them to live as he sees fir if he's influential enough.

It's a debate regarding people vs power. Is it the power's fault or the persons? It's the same issue of blood magic.

It should start with the elves as they're treatment is actually based on the racial prejudiced idea of human superiority.

*Elven activist speaking*

[Ailith Tycane]

The same reason why animals that are more powerful than humans can be trained to be submissive and docile even though they could kill their human handlers. Years of abuse.

[Allan Schumacher]

Maybe I'm just misreading things on the internet, but is this discussion really as hostile (between some posters, anyways) as I read it to be?