67 réponses à ce sujet

[KenLyns]

"Turian" came from the word "centurion", according to the ME Wiki. Now, if turians are the Romans, humans are Germanic tribesman, then who are the Mongols?

[Nemesis Shield]

The Mongols (and their earlier brethren, the Huns) would be the Reapers.....

[altair 1987]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Funny how the "Divine Right" of Humanity exists even in a growing secular age.

I  hear you!

[marshalleck]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I was wrong. The Turians did fire first..

But it wasn't really a scouting patrol. It was humans doing what they do best - they were just expanding into space and opening forbidden relays. I mean, who cares what's behind these relays obviously created by some other interstellar species.. let's just reactivate it and deal with the consequences later.

Well - the consequences were the equivalent of police brutality by the Turians.

Curiosity killed the human.

It's a matter of jurisdiction and diplomacy.

Humanity was not a subject of the Citadel, they had no agreements with the Citadel, thus they were not subject to policing by the turians. Even though there are good reasons to not reactivate a dormant relay if you don't know where it links (see: Rachni War), humanity was not aware of this. When the turians attacked the human ships at the relay, and occupied Shanxi, it was not police action--it was an act of war against a sovereign nation.

The Citadel Council admitted as much when they ordered the turians to pay heavy reparations.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 02:51 .

[pharos_gryphon]

marshalleck wrote...

It's a matter of jurisdiction and diplomacy.
Humanity was not a subject of the Citadel, they had no agreements with the Citadel, thus they were not subject to policing by the turians. Even though there are good reasons to not reactivate a dormant relay if you don't know where it links (see: Rachni War), humanity was not aware of this. When the turians attacked the human ships at the relay, and occupied Shanxi, it was not police action--it was an act of war against a sovereign nation.
The Citadel Council admitted as much when they ordered the turians to pay heavy reparations.

Still, as is often said in the real world, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.  If you're a Turian guard at a dormant relay and an unknown entity activates said relay, it's still an act of aggression, no?  If I don't bother to read the speed limit sign in Canada because I'm an American, doesn't mean they won't pull my ass over.

[GnusmasTHX]

pharos_gryphon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's a matter of jurisdiction and diplomacy.
Humanity was not a subject of the Citadel, they had no agreements with the Citadel, thus they were not subject to policing by the turians. Even though there are good reasons to not reactivate a dormant relay if you don't know where it links (see: Rachni War), humanity was not aware of this. When the turians attacked the human ships at the relay, and occupied Shanxi, it was not police action--it was an act of war against a sovereign nation.
The Citadel Council admitted as much when they ordered the turians to pay heavy reparations.

Still, as is often said in the real world, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.  If you're a Turian guard at a dormant relay and an unknown entity activates said relay, it's still an act of aggression, no?  If I don't bother to read the speed limit sign in Canada because I'm an American, doesn't mean they won't pull my ass over.

Then wouldn't humanity have met the turians exiting the relay they came from, rather than when they moved unto relay 314?

The relay from where humanity came from must've been closed as well, if humanity and the citadel had no previous contact.

That said, it wasn't so much humanity stumbled upon a relay guarded by any turian police force, and instead a turian police force stumbled upon a human exploration team and fired upon them. (turians don't keep a force at every relay, especially a closed one)

 humanity would've never been aware that there were ANY such laws at all. Whereas speed limits exist in both america and the canada, and are fairly obvious/known, there's no way a human could tell not to open a relay, ESPECIALLY when the only reason opening relays is forbidden is because of a citadel-space SPECIFIC incident with another species, rather than a universal precaution of safety, like a speed limit.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 19 janvier 2010 - 03:02 .

[HiroVoid]

pharos_gryphon wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

It's a matter of jurisdiction and diplomacy.
Humanity was not a subject of the Citadel, they had no agreements with the Citadel, thus they were not subject to policing by the turians. Even though there are good reasons to not reactivate a dormant relay if you don't know where it links (see: Rachni War), humanity was not aware of this. When the turians attacked the human ships at the relay, and occupied Shanxi, it was not police action--it was an act of war against a sovereign nation.
The Citadel Council admitted as much when they ordered the turians to pay heavy reparations.

Still, as is often said in the real world, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.  If you're a Turian guard at a dormant relay and an unknown entity activates said relay, it's still an act of aggression, no?  If I don't bother to read the speed limit sign in Canada because I'm an American, doesn't mean they won't pull my ass over.

Yeah, but there's a difference between telling then pulling the person over telling he doesn't need to speed and fining him, and pulling him over, opening his door, and shooting him full of holes.

[marshalleck]

pharos_gryphon wrote...

Still, as is often said in the real world, ignorance of the law is no excuse for breaking the law.  If you're a Turian guard at a dormant relay and an unknown entity activates said relay, it's still an act of aggression, no?  If I don't bother to read the speed limit sign in Canada because I'm an American, doesn't mean they won't pull my ass over.

In this case, it absolutely is "an excuse."

Most law is based on social contract: government derives its authority by the consent of those it governs. This was not the agreement between humanity and turians or the Citadel at the time.

I like the situation you brought up because it poignantly demonstrates the reality of the war: you were speeding, and instead of pulling you over, the cop shot you dead on sight. He then got your home address and went to your house and started killing your family.

Think about this logically. Every member species of the Citadel has at some point in the past opened and activated relays without being cognizant of the inherent danger. That's how the asari first found the Citadel thousands of years ago, it's how the salarians and asari met, it's how the turians and elcor and everyone else discovered a greater galactic community.

The appropriate response would have been to reveal themselves to the humans. For the turians it would have been a fairly routine contact procedure, but for humanity--to suddenly discover intelligent aliens--would have been nearly unimaginable in its implications. That would have effectively stopped humanity's expansion, at least long enough for linguists to be mustered and allow the diplomatic actions take their normal course.

The turians blew it big time, and the Council obviously saw it the same way since they made the turians pay reparations.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 03:10 .

[Schneidend]

marshalleck wrote...

Of course, it's likewise somewhat embarrassing to have your occupying force annihilated by a "backwater" species when you are regarded as the supreme military force in the galaxy. It's only natural they'd want to downplay the scale and significance of their defeat by calling it an "incident."

Most likely this. The turians were wrong to attack without warning, and they lost a battle to a far less powerful race because of it. They want to forget about it, like Germany would like to forget about nahtzee's.

That's right. I just Godwin'd this thread.

[marshalleck]

Schneidend wrote...

That's right. I just Godwin'd this thread.

high five

[Schneidend]

marshalleck wrote...

high five

Don't you mean "heil five"? Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho!

[marshalleck]

Schneidend wrote...

marshalleck wrote...

high five

Don't you mean "heil five"? Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho!

okay that pun needs some turian police action

[DonDaMon]

Turian's view it as an incident because if they labelled it as a defeat then other races would begin to question the might of their fleets if a newcomer (humans) could quickly wipe them out like we did on shanxi.

[JudgeQwerty]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

JudgeQwerty wrote...

Its mentioned that the Turians at Shanxi were wiping out entire blocks to eliminate a single soldier. That reminded me of the Roman practice of 'decimation' where they would anihilate one tenth of the populace to inspire fear and keep their numbers down.

Actually the Roman practice of decimation was applied to the army. If a Legion had not aquitted itself well on the battlefield or had mutinied, it could be punished by having the men broken off into groups of ten, each drawing lots to determine which of the ten would die. The 'lucky' 9 would then be forced to kill their 10th comrade. In practice it was rarely used, but the threat of it no doubt kept men in line.

The Romans could also be quite brutal with subjugated foreigners however, who weren't too keen on accepting Roman rule. After one battle in Gaul  for example Julius Caesar had his men hack off the hands of the Gauls they captured, and then set them free as an example to all the penalty of raising a sword against Rome.

Ach! You're right! I confused Roman decimation with the its modern definition!

[Willowhugger]

[quote]Funny how the "Divine Right" of Humanity exists even in a growing secular age. [/quote]
[/quote]

Growing? 

Oookkay.

In any case, the Turians overreacted.  In the end, the human race would have lost but the actual fight would have been a lot nastier than anyone expected.  It would have been like the United States fighting Imperial Japan.  The Turians just didn't expect humanity to have technology equivalent to them or Dreadnoughts.

Modifié par Willowhugger, 19 janvier 2010 - 03:46 .

[Schneidend]

marshalleck wrote...

okay that pun needs some turian police action

Mmm. Loves me some fascist brutality.

<Is tazed.> GaAAAah! Fascist brutality burns! Why?!

[Balek-Vriege]

I have a theory that the Turians were partly using the relay reactivation as a lawful reason for a quick "land" grab and possible annexation of an unknown, just arrived and completely unprotrotected species. If they were able to subjugate humanity through a quick surrender in face of the Turian Empire's unequaled galatic might, they would have been able to claim at least one highly developed homeworld (Earth) and shift power towards them in the region.



Unfortunately they underestimated Humans and their expedition force was defeated. By the time they prepared an invasion the Council caught on, were impressed by the Human victory and saw humanity as a better asset being a Citadel member species rather than a Turian occupied territory.

[marshalleck]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

I have a theory that the Turians were partly using the relay reactivation as a lawful reason for a quick "land" grab and possible annexation of an unknown, just arrived and completely unprotrotected species. If they were able to subjugate humanity through a quick surrender in face of the Turian Empire's unequaled galatic might, they would have been able to claim at least one highly developed homeworld (Earth) and shift power towards them in the region.

Unfortunately they underestimated Humans and their expedition force was defeated. By the time they prepared an invasion the Council caught on, were impressed by the Human victory and saw humanity as a better asset being a Citadel member species rather than a Turian occupied territory.

Yep, this is basically implied in either the codex or the books. I think you're 100% correct.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 03:23 .

[blank1]

The Turians are to blame for much of current Human xenophobia, IMO. It would still be there, because I think it is a natural response to "difference," but nearly as much had our first contact with an Alien species be an high-intensity operation over a planet.



Also, the System's Alliance would have made a Turian invasion far more costly than its worth. The amount of losses the Turians would take against the SA's then unknown technology and alien naval tactics (Superior to the galactic status quo IMO) would be heavy, though the Turians would undoubtedly win a total war scenario. It'd be lose-lose for them.

[Medhia Nox]

Hey, all I'm saying is that when termites, rats, and ants invade a person's home that person will hire an exterminator.



Citadel Space, humans are the rats, Turians - the Exterminators.



Fortunately - there's compassion amongst the Council for lower life-forms.

[Xivai]

If they attempted occupation of earth they would end up losing with probably tons of resistance. Humans are stubborn like that. Meaning they would have to either give up on their costly invasion and go home, or nuke the planet and lose a verdant green planet that was suitable for life.



Either way they lose.

[Legend5]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Actually, it is mentioned in the book that the Turians would have wiped humanity away had the Council not stepped in.

The Turians killed at the relay were a scout patrol.

BTW.. we American's have some hyper-advanced military units in some pretty "primitive" places. We're not doing well... it doesn't take a lot of firepower to sneak attack someone.

It was the Turian/Human - Pearl Harbor. Oh, and the Turian's were (would have been) America.. had the Council not saved our race from extinction.

Your analogy is a little inaccurate...well both of them, seeing as that by military standards the US is doing very very well in said primitive places, and Pearl Harbor is to the first contact war as apples are to oranges.

[Schneidend]

Xivai wrote...

If they attempted occupation of earth they would end up losing with probably tons of resistance. Humans are stubborn like that. Meaning they would have to either give up on their costly invasion and go home, or nuke the planet and lose a verdant green planet that was suitable for life.

Either way they lose.

Um, no. At the time of the First Contact War the Systems Alliance couldn't possibly have defeated the turians. Even in Mass Effect 1 & 2 the humans would not win a war with the turians. We just don't have the ships, manpower, or resources.

[marshalleck]

Truth. But such a war would result in massive destruction on a galactic scale, which is why all parties still shy away from it.

[HiroVoid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hey, all I'm saying is that when termites, rats, and ants invade a person's home that person will hire an exterminator.

Citadel Space, humans are the rats, Turians - the Exterminators.

Fortunately - there's compassion amongst the Council for lower life-forms.

So now you're comparing rats and exterminators who can't discuss or negotiate with each other to the Turians who could have negotiated with us before opening fire on us.  As for calling humans "lower life-forms."

Shepard: That's pretty damned arrogant.