67 réponses à ce sujet

[Legend5]

Schneidend wrote...

Xivai wrote...

If they attempted occupation of earth they would end up losing with probably tons of resistance. Humans are stubborn like that. Meaning they would have to either give up on their costly invasion and go home, or nuke the planet and lose a verdant green planet that was suitable for life.

Either way they lose.

Um, no. At the time of the First Contact War the Systems Alliance couldn't possibly have defeated the turians. Even in Mass Effect 1 & 2 the humans would not win a war with the turians. We just don't have the ships, manpower, or resources.

No, I dont think he means the Alliance; he is talking about how throughout history humans will fight if occupied by a foriegn force, so if the turians tried to occupy earth he is saying they would have lost because the humans not the alliance on earth would have fought back, probably with guerrilla warfare.

[marshalleck]

HiroVoid wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hey, all I'm saying is that when termites, rats, and ants invade a person's home that person will hire an exterminator.

Citadel Space, humans are the rats, Turians - the Exterminators.

Fortunately - there's compassion amongst the Council for lower life-forms.

So
now you're comparing rats and exterminators who can't discuss or
negotiate with each other to the Turians who could have negotiated with
us before opening fire on us.  As for calling humans "lower
life-forms."

Shepard: That's pretty damned arrogant.

You took the bait.

Modifié par marshalleck, 19 janvier 2010 - 04:21 .

[HiroVoid]

marshalleck wrote...

HiroVoid wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hey, all I'm saying is that when termites, rats, and ants invade a person's home that person will hire an exterminator.

Citadel Space, humans are the rats, Turians - the Exterminators.

Fortunately - there's compassion amongst the Council for lower life-forms.

So
now you're comparing rats and exterminators who can't discuss or
negotiate with each other to the Turians who could have negotiated with
us before opening fire on us.  As for calling humans "lower
life-forms."

Shepard: That's pretty damned arrogant.

You took the bait.

Don't worry.  I don't plan on arguing that long if he's the type who can't see reason or keeps on spouting random things like that when everyone else has agreed that Turians were in the wrong, and he can't simply respond "Well, maybe the Turians weren't completely right in that matter."

I also don't have many opportunities to directly quote Shepard from the game where the exact same words are used.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 19 janvier 2010 - 04:29 .

[Yojimboo]

Because "WE ARE SPARTA", it means, please don't use our garden as a toilet or we kick ya booty.

[OneDrunkMonk]

My understanding is Turians tend to be very practical about everything. Some may harbor ill feelings towards Humans over the war but for the most part they've moved on. It was a rather short lived war if you think about it by most measures. Kinda ended before it really started. For the most part I think Turians don't think too well of Humanity (at least pre Saren/Reaper attack on Citadel) for very justifiable reasons. Humanity tends to want to move in and take over everything as oppose to just being an equal partner. In many ways Humanity is immature compared to the Turians. Just look at Terra Firma and Cerberus.

[Medhia Nox]

I know the Turians weren't right in the matter. I already admitted I was wrong about the conditions of the conflict.



---



Look, at the point we were about to open the Mass Relay - as a species we were completely ignorant of the Rachni Wars.



The Turians, VERY aware saw an ignorant species bumbling their way into a situation that could land the entire galaxy in a war they couldn't win. The Krogan had been neutered - there was nobody left to fight if the Rachni came through that Mass Relay.



- We don't know how close the humans were to opening the relay.



- Earth languages were likely not part of the translator devices worn by the Turians. And humans CERTAINLY didn't have translators. So, if the Turians yelled "Stop! You're going to get us all killed!" It would have come across as gibberish.



- So.. you're not sure if you can communicate with this new species. You do know that the mistake they are about to make could cost the universe million - billions of lives.



What do you do?

[Fuzzyrabbit]

I wonder if that DLC human merc squadmate was in the contact war. He looks old 'n' grizzled enough.

[HiroVoid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I know the Turians weren't right in the matter. I already admitted I was wrong about the conditions of the conflict.

---

Look, at the point we were about to open the Mass Relay - as a species we were completely ignorant of the Rachni Wars.

The Turians, VERY aware saw an ignorant species bumbling their way into a situation that could land the entire galaxy in a war they couldn't win. The Krogan had been neutered - there was nobody left to fight if the Rachni came through that Mass Relay.

- We don't know how close the humans were to opening the relay.

- Earth languages were likely not part of the translator devices worn by the Turians. And humans CERTAINLY didn't have translators. So, if the Turians yelled "Stop! You're going to get us all killed!" It would have come across as gibberish.

- So.. you're not sure if you can communicate with this new species. You do know that the mistake they are about to make could cost the universe million - billions of lives.

What do you do?

You could land at the relay as well(I'm unsure how you activate a relay), drop down, and when you drop down, you start using hand signals to start communicating.  Granted, you could argue that humanity would've paniced and attacked the Turians anyway, but while you can't control how the enemy'll react, you can control how you react.  There's also the fact that the Turians went on to attack humanity afterwards.

[HiroVoid]

OneDrunkMonk wrote...

My understanding is Turians tend to be very practical about everything. Some may harbor ill feelings towards Humans over the war but for the most part they've moved on. It was a rather short lived war if you think about it by most measures. Kinda ended before it really started. For the most part I think Turians don't think too well of Humanity (at least pre Saren/Reaper attack on Citadel) for very justifiable reasons. Humanity tends to want to move in and take over everything as oppose to just being an equal partner. In many ways Humanity is immature compared to the Turians. Just look at Terra Firma and Cerberus.

Both sides have members that harbor ill feelings towards the other side.  On the Turian's side, a prime example is Saren due to his brother dying in the war.

Overall, i'd say they're working to build trust between the two.  The Normandy's a prime example of this because it's a combination of both Turian and Human technology.

[Medhia Nox]

Hand signals?



- The books detail that space craft don't need windows. They're superfluous and the only reason why early Earth spaceships have them is because that's what Earth-people expect. It's feeding the mass conciousness of the world by meeting their expectations of Star Trek.



So, we might be able to assume the Turians didn't even have windows on their ships.



- Also, we know the Turians attacked. That's fact. We have no example of the Turians being a race of beings who just slaughter new races. We DO know that they're "Space Cops" for the Council.



- We also know that the humans simply decided to retaliate. After the attack they found the nearest Turians and blew them up. Hardly trying to keep a level head. This sparked a ****** for tat engagement.



----



Nobody was right during the conflict - but that doesn't change a few facts about the present.



- We know now, that the Rachni are still pretty much extinct. Opening the gate might have done nothing.



- Humanity knows now that: 1) That gate is seriously dangerous. They could have endangered the galaxy. 2) The Council is the only thing that saved humanity. ((This second point is a fact in the novels.))



----



I believe humanity is portrayed as disgustingly arrogant, beligerant, and spoiled in ME. They expect to be part of the Council before species that have been present for hundreds, if not thousands of years.



Then, of course, you have Cerberus and Terra Firma. You have Udina and all the Shepards who are human supremecists.



----



I wonder if the Council will come to regret its decision to let this race of conquerers survive the First Contact War.



To be honest - knowing what I know of my own species. Were I the Council. I'd have restricted humanity to the Sol System permanently.

[vhatever]

Nemesis Shield wrote...

vhatever wrote...

So if the Turians are Romans, does that make humans Germanic tribesman?

They completely humilated Rome by destroying 3-4 entire legions(half of their entire european army) of the Roman army in one battle. Greatest loss Rome ever suffered, if not any empire in history.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Battle of Cannae in 216 BC against Hannibal Barca the greatest loss that the Romans ever suffered?

My impression was that the casualties at the Teutoberg Forest in 9 CE weren't quite as high as at Cannae because a substantial number of Romans did actually manage to break through out of the forest. On the other hand, there were hundreds of women and children accompanying the 3 legions at Teutoberg as part of the baggage and supply train, since the soldiers and their families were essentially relocating to more permanent forts. I am not sure what the casualties were among those unfortunates.

Teutoburg was probably their most humilaiting defeat(Rome was supposed to be at its height in power and the barbarians were thought to be cannon fodder, and in that battle the Romans were not just completely destroyed but they inflicted little to no damage on the enemy), anyway  that's not the battle I'm talking about.. The battle of Arausio.

Modifié par vhatever, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:13 .

[HiroVoid]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hand signals?

- The books detail that space craft don't need windows. They're superfluous and the only reason why early Earth spaceships have them is because that's what Earth-people expect. It's feeding the mass conciousness of the world by meeting their expectations of Star Trek.

So, we might be able to assume the Turians didn't even have windows on their ships.

- Also, we know the Turians attacked. That's fact. We have no example of the Turians being a race of beings who just slaughter new races. We DO know that they're "Space Cops" for the Council.

- We also know that the humans simply decided to retaliate. After the attack they found the nearest Turians and blew them up. Hardly trying to keep a level head. This sparked a ****** for tat engagement.

----

Nobody was right during the conflict - but that doesn't change a few facts about the present.

- We know now, that the Rachni are still pretty much extinct. Opening the gate might have done nothing.

- Humanity knows now that: 1) That gate is seriously dangerous. They could have endangered the galaxy. 2) The Council is the only thing that saved humanity. ((This second point is a fact in the novels.))

----

I believe humanity is portrayed as disgustingly arrogant, beligerant, and spoiled in ME. They expect to be part of the Council before species that have been present for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Then, of course, you have Cerberus and Terra Firma. You have Udina and all the Shepards who are human supremecists.

----

I wonder if the Council will come to regret its decision to let this race of conquerers survive the First Contact War.

To be honest - knowing what I know of my own species. Were I the Council. I'd have restricted humanity to the Sol System permanently.

Fine.  We can agree that the contact war was both parties' fault.  As far as humanity being apart of the council, why not?  If I can get to a position in a company faster than a person who's been there for 20 years, I'm going to take that position.  I feel bad about the person who's been there for 20 years and think he deserves better, but I can't do anything about that.  It's the council races that're at fault for those races not being apart of the council yet.

Also, while the Council saved us, they aren't perfect, good beings.  The Quarians ended up being nearly wiped out by the Geth.  They weren't technically doing AI research which is the main reason why the Council didn't intervene in the first place.  When the Quarians asked for help, the Council denied the Quarians help, and they now have to live as exiles.

Modifié par HiroVoid, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:20 .

[Xivai]

Legend5 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Xivai wrote...

If they attempted occupation of earth they would end up losing with probably tons of resistance. Humans are stubborn like that. Meaning they would have to either give up on their costly invasion and go home, or nuke the planet and lose a verdant green planet that was suitable for life.

Either way they lose.

Um, no. At the time of the First Contact War the Systems Alliance couldn't possibly have defeated the turians. Even in Mass Effect 1 & 2 the humans would not win a war with the turians. We just don't have the ships, manpower, or resources.

No, I dont think he means the Alliance; he is talking about how throughout history humans will fight if occupied by a foriegn force, so if the turians tried to occupy earth he is saying they would have lost because the humans not the alliance on earth would have fought back, probably with guerrilla warfare.

Exactly what I meant.

I thought people would have understood what I was trying to say originally. How could we possibly have won and gotten nuked at the same time by that logic.

[Legend5]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Hand signals?

- The books detail that space craft don't need windows. They're superfluous and the only reason why early Earth spaceships have them is because that's what Earth-people expect. It's feeding the mass conciousness of the world by meeting their expectations of Star Trek.

So, we might be able to assume the Turians didn't even have windows on their ships.

- Also, we know the Turians attacked. That's fact. We have no example of the Turians being a race of beings who just slaughter new races. We DO know that they're "Space Cops" for the Council.

- We also know that the humans simply decided to retaliate. After the attack they found the nearest Turians and blew them up. Hardly trying to keep a level head. This sparked a ****** for tat engagement.

----

Nobody was right during the conflict - but that doesn't change a few facts about the present.

- We know now, that the Rachni are still pretty much extinct. Opening the gate might have done nothing.

- Humanity knows now that: 1) That gate is seriously dangerous. They could have endangered the galaxy. 2) The Council is the only thing that saved humanity. ((This second point is a fact in the novels.))

----

I believe humanity is portrayed as disgustingly arrogant, beligerant, and spoiled in ME. They expect to be part of the Council before species that have been present for hundreds, if not thousands of years.

Then, of course, you have Cerberus and Terra Firma. You have Udina and all the Shepards who are human supremecists.

----

I wonder if the Council will come to regret its decision to let this race of conquerers survive the First Contact War.

To be honest - knowing what I know of my own species. Were I the Council. I'd have restricted humanity to the Sol System permanently.

I suggest you do not speak of things you do not know...my grandfather was an aerospace engineer/physcist who was on the team which worked on the Star wars project and the apollo projects... windows on spacecraft are for serious  safety reasons, for it would be stupid and nieve to expect a spaceshuttle to land without windows, or observe anything in space, sure it is possible but it is not the most inteligent thing and they honestly did not place windows on spacecraft to appeal to the public and startrek came out after we had abtained space flight with windows. For what reason would you ban humanity to sol only? Honestly what? Let me guess you see us as a war bent species and blah blah but war has honestly saved more lives then it has ever prevented, humanity as a species is an interesting one and a nieve one ill give you that but we are strong, resiliant, and ambitious species as mass effect states. To ban us would be a strategically stupid move, you dont bench your star player no matter how cocky they are, and if you listen to some of the conversations in the Citidel tower you will hear how many species are wary to trust us but they are not stupid they do see how we can benefit the galaxy as a whole they just think we might be too powerful for there own good, it would be stupid if they just out right trusted us, they certianly do not see us as a blight among the galaxy.

[Schneidend]

Legend5 wrote...

No, I dont think he means the Alliance; he is talking about how throughout history humans will fight if occupied by a foriegn force, so if the turians tried to occupy earth he is saying they would have lost because the humans not the alliance on earth would have fought back, probably with guerrilla warfare.

You can "fight" all you want, but history has shown that most overwhelmingly powerful imperialistic forces tend to occupy territory they've conquered without much incident for significant periods of time.

[Medhia Nox]

HiroVoid

Okay, I don't disagree with you that much there. I can't change the way you look at it (nor do I want to.)

Personally, I don't see being part of a Pan-Galatic Inter-Species Council to equate well to my own corporate ladder climb.

Humanity isn't interested in "understanding" in ME. They're interested in power - authority. Why? For security. They're still the scared little species they've been since they crawled out of the caves.

There's nothing wrong with ensuring ones safety of course - but this level of security is easily one step toward a human dominated galaxy. Where humans decides the fates of other races. Cerberus, Terra Firma, and again - MANY people on these forums promote this.

It's the Divine Right of Humanity - leftovers of Manifest Destiny. Humans are best - because humans are the only thing keeping score.

---

Well, in a fictional universe with aliens - humans aren't the only thing "keeping score" and yet, here we are in ME still operating in the same old way. Still proving out "superiority" over other species.

I do find it realistic.. and I do find it depressing.

---

My Shepard does not fight for Earth, and humans, only. He fights for the Council and what the Council represents. The betterment of all species.

That's why I'll blow Cerberus sky high when I get the chance. I will be a pariah - a traitor to my own race - because I believe my race to be war-mongering Imperialists by nature. If they prove me wrong, then I won't need to protect the Council races from them.

I believe it was Deep Space Nine (and definately Babylon 5) that had GREAT story elements that weren't so blandly "Pro-Human".

---

EDIT: LEGEND5 I wasn't talking about REAL spaceflight. I said that this is what the novels proposed. So please be less perjorative in your comments if you can't even read my posts.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 19 janvier 2010 - 05:39 .

[Legend5]

Schneidend wrote...

Legend5 wrote...

No, I dont think he means the Alliance; he is talking about how throughout history humans will fight if occupied by a foriegn force, so if the turians tried to occupy earth he is saying they would have lost because the humans not the alliance on earth would have fought back, probably with guerrilla warfare.

You can "fight" all you want, but history has shown that most overwhelmingly powerful imperialistic forces tend to occupy territory they've conquered without much incident for significant periods of time.

What shows us that? The fall of the Soviet empire? the fall of Imperialism? WW2?
History shows us that no matter how powerful the force, it will never succeed in occuping a hostile land...never.

[Xivai]

Schneidend wrote...

Legend5 wrote...

No, I dont think he means the Alliance; he is talking about how throughout history humans will fight if occupied by a foriegn force, so if the turians tried to occupy earth he is saying they would have lost because the humans not the alliance on earth would have fought back, probably with guerrilla warfare.

You can "fight" all you want, but history has shown that most overwhelmingly powerful imperialistic forces tend to occupy territory they've conquered without much incident for significant periods of time.

Right, because at the time of being conquered by the first aliens we ever met, we have such a historical perspective that we can always claim those facts are relevant about aliens.

There would be no predicent at the time to make any assumptions about the aliens. Not to mention it is of significant WTF mentalism that it might just rouse a panic button in humanity thinking they are going to get killed off or worse. Personally I think the fighting would be brutual, and we would naturally be decimated. Although with an entire planets populous panicking and most likely thinking some sort of apocalypse or judgment day is upon them I doubt the Turians could just walk in and take it over.

Also even if they did succeed it's only a matter of time until the system crumbles. Although the odds of humanity ever getting a Specter after being crushed by the Turians is unlikely. Meaning we would probably be all dead and Mass Effect would probably not have happened. The Reapers would have come and deastroyed us all.