432 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

keekee53 wrote...

I love the look of the Elves in DA:I

I hated the way the elves looked in DA2.

You will find many here who share your opinion, as far as DA2 goes.

[Shadow Fox]

Nerevar-as wrote...

Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke wrote...

Linkenski wrote...

Considering elves from DA2 were basically western-cartoonish final fantasy fairies makes me want to embrace this step backwards. Heck yeah, get rid of that anime appeal. It sucks.

To you maybe.

I myself prefer anime elves to Tolkien ones.

Please don´t compare Deedrit and Piroteus (or whatever their english spelling is) to those things from DA2.

I wasn't.

[The Serge777]

[quote]mikeymoonshine wrote...

[quote]The Serge777 wrote...

And what features are beautiful?  Should they look more like Caucasians, with pink and light peach skin with unkinky hair?  Should they have slanted eyes with less lid coverage?  Should they have lower foreheads and reddish complexions?  Should they have broader noses and thicker lips with darker skin?  We know they're supposed to be slender, but should they have more athletic builds (like a swimmer) or should they look more prepubescent? 

What do we mean by "more beautiful than the humans...?[/quote]

That's not really a very honest argument though. You are just trying to pick apart what others are sayng and twist it to make it seem idiotic and wrong. Yes bety is subjective but "ugly" and "freaky looking" are allot less subjective. Not all the elves were typically beautiful in origins but they mostly looked ok even the NPC's considering the kind of graphics in that game it was a good design. [/quote]
Yes, it is an honest argument because I'm challenging not only the concept of attractive in Dragon Age, but the real world as well.  Many folks are throwing around judgments associated with beauty without bothering to try and describe what their standard of beauty is.  If they can't do so in the real world, how can they do so in the Dragon Age world, in which we can't entirely know for certain how those people view beauty? Clearly, if the humans of Thedas view their elves as attractive, there's a disconnect. 

And, no, calling something "ugly" or "freaky looking" is fairly subjective.  Clearly, I don't agree with those claims at all since I didn't think all the elves (including quite a few other than Fenris and Merrill) were ugly or "freaky-looking."  Different?  Yes.  Non-human? Absolutely.  But ugly?  No. 

And what do you mean by "good design?"  The graphic work in DAO was barely within the PS3/XB360 generation when the game came out by most reviews.  Or are you saying that it was "good design" because the elves looked exactly like human models save being slightly less robust with pointy ears? 

But more importantly (to me, at least), folks are tossing out these judgments without thinking them through. If that's "twisting" those arguments to make them seem "idiotic" and "wrong," so be it; nevertheless, I am challenging folks to actually stop and think about what they're posting (which I suspect is a futile effort, but oh well).  I don't expect folks to agree with me, nor am I trying to make folks believe they're wrong; rather, I'm trying to see if folks can even think through their arguments in this particular regard. 



As we know dragon age elves are described as slender, shorter than humans and beautiful. The developers should be rying to create elves that fit this criteria and that is what they are doing, that is what they tried to do in DA2 but that design didn't work so well. 

If draon age elves were desribed as looking really different to humans then this debate would be worth having but they aren't so what do you want, designs that go against the lore? 
[/quote]

[The Serge777]

Han Shot First wrote...

The Serge777 wrote...

And what features are beautiful?  Should they look more like Caucasians, with pink and light peach skin with unkinky hair?  Should they have slanted eyes with less lid coverage?  Should they have lower foreheads and reddish complexions?  Should they have broader noses and thicker lips with darker skin?  We know they're supposed to be slender, but should they have more athletic builds (like a swimmer) or should they look more prepubescent? 

What do we mean by "more beautiful than the humans...?

Who says the elves have to look like only one race of humans? I'd imagine that in regions where the sun was more harsh and evolution had responded by giving humans dark skin, that you'd also find dark-skinned elves. It wouldn't make much sense to find pasty white elves in whatever the Dragon Age equivalent of Africa is, for example.

I don't disagree with this.  However, few (if any) of the appeals to beauty are bothering to describe what constitutes beauty.  All I'm reading is "the DA2 elves are ugly" and that's it.  On what basis are they are they ugly?  Under what definition? The only definition I've seen thus far is a (feeble) nod to DAO, in which those elves looked just like (Caucasian) humans with pointy ears. 

Look, my goal with this thread is not to discuss beauty from a Western perspective (although I know I've done much to steer it in that direction).  Instead, it's to question whether or not the direction DA:I seems to be going with elves not only returns them to the status of slender humans with pointy ears, but if we're also seeing yet another significant visual overhaul of a franchise that already has enough challenge holding itself together. I'll admit that I think the new elves look great from a D&D perspective; however, is that what we want or need?  DA2 was doing something interesting in its handling of elves (and qunari and darkspawn) by going out of its way to make them somewhat distinct from humans.  I'm not certain that turning away from this as drastically as it seems DA:I might be doing is for the best.  

[cjones91]

The Serge777 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

The Serge777 wrote...

And what features are beautiful?  Should they look more like Caucasians, with pink and light peach skin with unkinky hair?  Should they have slanted eyes with less lid coverage?  Should they have lower foreheads and reddish complexions?  Should they have broader noses and thicker lips with darker skin?  We know they're supposed to be slender, but should they have more athletic builds (like a swimmer) or should they look more prepubescent? 

What do we mean by "more beautiful than the humans...?

Who says the elves have to look like only one race of humans? I'd imagine that in regions where the sun was more harsh and evolution had responded by giving humans dark skin, that you'd also find dark-skinned elves. It wouldn't make much sense to find pasty white elves in whatever the Dragon Age equivalent of Africa is, for example.

I don't disagree with this.  However, few (if any) of the appeals to beauty are bothering to describe what constitutes beauty.  All I'm reading is "the DA2 elves are ugly" and that's it.  On what basis are they are they ugly?  Under what definition? The only definition I've seen thus far is a (feeble) nod to DAO, in which those elves looked just like (Caucasian) humans with pointy ears. 

Look, my goal with this thread is not to discuss beauty from a Western perspective (although I know I've done much to steer it in that direction).  Instead, it's to question whether or not the direction DA:I seems to be going with elves not only returns them to the status of slender humans with pointy ears, but if we're also seeing yet another significant visual overhaul of a franchise that already has enough challenge holding itself together. I'll admit that I think the new elves look great from a D&D perspective; however, is that what we want or need?  DA2 was doing something interesting in its handling of elves (and qunari and darkspawn) by going out of its way to make them somewhat distinct from humans.  I'm not certain that turning away from this as drastically as it seems DA:I might be doing is for the best.  

So you want the elves to change just to make a statement even if it went against the lore?Honestly the DA2 elves and darkspawn looked horrible and out of place in my opinion,also enough with the humans with pointy ears complaint because it's annoying.

[Elhanan]

I rather enjoyed the look of the Darkspawn in Awakenings; possibly their best in the series.

[mikeymoonshine]

[quote]The Serge777 wrote...

[quote]mikeymoonshine wrote...

[quote]The Serge777 wrote...

And what features are beautiful?  Should they look more like Caucasians, with pink and light peach skin with unkinky hair?  Should they have slanted eyes with less lid coverage?  Should they have lower foreheads and reddish complexions?  Should they have broader noses and thicker lips with darker skin?  We know they're supposed to be slender, but should they have more athletic builds (like a swimmer) or should they look more prepubescent? 

What do we mean by "more beautiful than the humans...?[/quote]

That's not really a very honest argument though. You are just trying to pick apart what others are sayng and twist it to make it seem idiotic and wrong. Yes bety is subjective but "ugly" and "freaky looking" are allot less subjective. Not all the elves were typically beautiful in origins but they mostly looked ok even the NPC's considering the kind of graphics in that game it was a good design. [/quote]
Yes, it is an honest argument because I'm challenging not only the concept of attractive in Dragon Age, but the real world as well.  Many folks are throwing around judgments associated with beauty without bothering to try and describe what their standard of beauty is.  If they can't do so in the real world, how can they do so in the Dragon Age world, in which we can't entirely know for certain how those people view beauty? Clearly, if the humans of Thedas view their elves as attractive, there's a disconnect. 

And, no, calling something "ugly" or "freaky looking" is fairly subjective.  Clearly, I don't agree with those claims at all since I didn't think all the elves (including quite a few other than Fenris and Merrill) were ugly or "freaky-looking."  Different?  Yes.  Non-human? Absolutely.  But ugly?  No. 

And what do you mean by "good design?"  The graphic work in DAO was barely within the PS3/XB360 generation when the game came out by most reviews.  Or are you saying that it was "good design" because the elves looked exactly like human models save being slightly less robust with pointy ears? 

But more importantly (to me, at least), folks are tossing out these judgments without thinking them through. If that's "twisting" those arguments to make them seem "idiotic" and "wrong," so be it; nevertheless, I am challenging folks to actually stop and think about what they're posting (which I suspect is a futile effort, but oh well).  I don't expect folks to agree with me, nor am I trying to make folks believe they're wrong; rather, I'm trying to see if folks can even think through their arguments in this particular regard. 



As we know dragon age elves are described as slender, shorter than humans and beautiful. The developers should be rying to create elves that fit this criteria and that is what they are doing, that is what they tried to do in DA2 but that design didn't work so well. 

If draon age elves were desribed as looking really different to humans then this debate would be worth having but they aren't so what do you want, designs that go against the lore? 
[/quote]
[/quote]

My point about the honesty of your argument was simly the impression I got. You sounded like you were trying to add elements of racism and even pedophilia onto the opinions of others simply beause they didn't feel like they needed to specify what beuty was to them. 

Ok so fine 'why I didn't like the DA2 elves' Well the first ting was they were too skinny, i know they are described as slim but it just didn't work when it came to their hight and their limbs they looked to me like sick children with long arms and legs.  This also made the weapons they carry look far too big for them even fenris (with that sword) cae off incredibly cartoonish. The eyes were big but most of them had very slim faces which made their eyes look sort of buglike. Then of course some of the npc's (a few have been posted in thi blog) just looked awful . their jawline's and cheekbones didn't always seem to work with their face shapes, Some of the hairstyles ust didn't work on them at all and again so many of them ust looked like badly drawn cartoons. 

Ok so I specified and I don't think any of that is unreasonable. The thing is to me it sounds like you are arguing for what you want the elves to look like and not how thy should look if you take the lore into account. 
There are plenty of games with interesting, different looking elf designs that are done well try maybe skyrim. 

[Sylvianus]

Elhanan wrote...

I rather enjoyed the look of the Darkspawn in Awakenings; possibly their best in the series.

Yeah, I agree. And the deep roads were also terrifying in that game.

[LPPrince]

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

[cjones91]

LPPrince wrote...

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

Now see if those types of elves were introduced in the first game I would'nt have a problem with it.What I do have a problem are people demanding the DA elves to be changed when the lore states they look like humans.

[Sylvianus]

I think those people don't give a **** about the lore. They just need elves to be weird and different regardless of DA. 

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2013 - 02:20 .

[cjones91]

Sylvianus wrote...

I think those people don't give a **** about the lore. They just need elves to be weird and different regardless of DA. 

Agreed,it's like they want only the elves to be different just to make some sort of statement.

Modifié par cjones91, 26 août 2013 - 02:29 .

[Sylvianus]

cjones91 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I think those people don't give a **** about the lore. They just need elves to be weird and different regardless of DA. 

Agreed,it's like they want only the elves to be different just to make some sort fo statement.

To me, this obsession sounds like vanity. The absolute need to do something never seen before, that other games and even fantasy in general didn't think, the need to be iconic iconic iconic !!!!!

I can at least understand that some people prefered DA2 elves, but not this obsession toward elves, especially that dwarves have exactly the same issue.

You must be really blind to not see that the DAI elves have still distinct features, even if they are similar to humans, as it should be in DA.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2013 - 02:34 .

[Pelle6666]

In my book elves are supposed to be a beautiful race and that was not the case in DAII. The only good looking elf in that game was Merill and that's because she was the one that looked most human, hell, they even made Zevran look ugly and that's quite a feat. I'm well happy with the new design specially since it looks like they are going more for a realistic approach than the almost cartoonish textures of DAII.

[Dutchess]

I am sick of the "humans with pointy ears" nonsense people are throwing around. In most fantasy, that is what elves are, combined with sharp features and a slender frame. Just stick to that if you can't come up with something better (DA2 was not better). No need to suddenly try to act like "humans with pointy ears" is some kind of insult or a great crime that must be avoided. I'd save that for sparkling vampires.

[cjones91]

Sylvianus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I think those people don't give a **** about the lore. They just need elves to be weird and different regardless of DA. 

Agreed,it's like they want only the elves to be different just to make some sort fo statement.

To me, this obsession sounds like vanity. The absolute need to do something never seen before, that other games and even fantasy in general didn't think, the need to be iconic iconic iconic !!!!!

I can at least understand that some people prefered DA2 elves, but not this obsession toward elves, especially that dwarves have exactly the same issue.

You must be really blind to not see that the DAI elves have still distinct features, even if they are similar to humans, as it should be in DA.

I don't know why they always complain about "humans with pointy ears" yet they ignore the dwarves.It could be a case of elves being more popular and so those people want them to be weird looking mutants just so they could say"Hey look!Our elves are different, come see how special they are!".

Modifié par cjones91, 26 août 2013 - 02:49 .

[mikeymoonshine]

Sylvianus wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

I think those people don't give a **** about the lore. They just need elves to be weird and different regardless of DA. 

Agreed,it's like they want only the elves to be different just to make some sort fo statement.

To me, this obsession sounds like vanity. The absolute need to do something never seen before, that other games and even fantasy in general didn't think, the need to be iconic iconic iconic !!!!!

I can at least understand that some people prefered DA2 elves, but not this obsession toward elves, especially that dwarves have exactly the same issue.

You must be really blind to not see that the DAI elves have still distinct features, even if they are similar to humans, as it should be in DA.

So far it looks like a good compromise. They look kinda in between both designs so they don't look massivly different to humans but i wouldn't call them humans with onty ears.

For me what is interesting abot elves and dwarves in dragon age is their history, how they interact with humans and oher races, how they ineteract with others of their kind.  Not even all of that is completely origional but in hechoice/reaction based gameplay you can have in dragon age it's a really interesting idea. 

Now they ae playable again that makes it more interesting because there are more ways to play the game. 

[cjones91]

renjility wrote...

I am sick of the "humans with pointy ears" nonsense people are throwing around. In most fantasy, that is what elves are, combined with sharp features and a slender frame. Just stick to that if you can't come up with something better (DA2 was not better). No need to suddenly try to act like "humans with pointy ears" is some kind of insult or a great crime that must be avoided. I'd save that for sparkling vampires.

And the weird thing is those same people don't complain about how dwarves are short and stocky humans therefore they must be made into genlocks.It's the elves they seem to be obsessed over.

[Dubozz]

New elves design is more like 10 steps forward. Not a fan of DA2 elves. 

Modifié par Dubozz, 27 août 2013 - 04:06 .

[Sylvianus]

cjones91 wrote...
I don't know why they always complain about "humans with pointy ears" yet they ignore the dwarves. It could be a case of elves being more popular and so those people want them to be weird looking mutants just so they could say"Hey look!Our elves are different, come see how special they are!".

Yep, vanity.

So far it looks like a good compromise. They look kinda in between both designs so they don't look massivly different to humans but i wouldn't call them humans with onty ears.

For me what is interesting abot elves and dwarves in dragon age is their history, how they interact with humans and oher races, how they ineteract with others of their kind.  Not even all of that is completely origional but in hechoice/reaction based gameplay you can have in dragon age it's a really interesting idea. 

Now they ae playable again that makes it more interesting because there are more ways to play the game.

Yeah, for me it seems to be a good compromise. Don't know why elves have to be really deformed to be considered like elves.

Otherwise I totally agree with you. This is what make the DA elves and races overall interesting to me. Their background, how they interact with humans, and between them, etc etc. I loved the Dalish and city elf background in DAO. I'm a pro Dalish and I don't feel at all that they are just humans because of their look.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 26 août 2013 - 03:04 .

[Augustei]

The new elves are excellent, DA2 elves were awful and DA2 Qunari are awesome. /thread

[Dutchess]

cjones91 wrote...

renjility wrote...

I am sick of the "humans with pointy ears" nonsense people are throwing around. In most fantasy, that is what elves are, combined with sharp features and a slender frame. Just stick to that if you can't come up with something better (DA2 was not better). No need to suddenly try to act like "humans with pointy ears" is some kind of insult or a great crime that must be avoided. I'd save that for sparkling vampires.

And the weird thing is those same people don't complain about how dwarves are short and stocky humans therefore they must be made into genlocks.It's the elves they seem to be obsessed over.

Yup, and the dwarves live under ground as well. Never heard of that before either. And dragons breathe fire *gasp*. I don't see what the problem is with such fantasy tropes. They exist and are popular for a reason. Every now and then someone comes up with a new and interesting twist on something, but for that it has to make sense in the context of the already-existing trope and fit with the creature you want to adapt. That's also why Twilight's sparkling vampire idea is so stupid. Vampires are supposed to be creatures of the night, of darkness. It then makes NO sense to have them sparkle like faeries in the sun (which often turns them to ashes in other settings). Sensitivity to garlic or not, having to be invited into a house or not to be able to enter, such things you can change and adapt while keeping the core concept intact. By adding glitter, you just want to have a faery, but think vampire sounds cooler. 

The same goes for elves. Immortal or not, living in forests or not, you can change such aspects and not violate the concept of elves. In some setting (like the Elder Scrolls) you can even have elves that look pretty alien and not attractive according to human standards at all, and it can still work, they can still look good in their own way. DA2 just... went wrong with that. Somehow the elves did not look good in their alien way. They looked bad, ridiculous, with bodies so thing it looks like they had no bones at all (I'm fine with the idea of slender, even thin elves, but now they looked like they were made of spaghetti), too long necks that occassionally bent in a way that is anatomically impossible, and eyes like golf balls. If you then also had your own freaking lore state that elves are considered attractive, and want to have elven companions as attractive romance options, you're just contradicting even your own concept of elves, and that makes the icky look even worse.

[In Exile]

Elves are a established race with established features today because Tolkien took a established race with established features, mostly ignored them, took the name, and came up with his own twist. 

I don't have a horse to back in this race, but it seems weird to me use elves as the example for an established fantasy trope when they only exist because someone messed around with an established fantasy trope.  

I want elves to look like elves because I happen to like that design. I want dwarves to look different because I don't like their typical design. I don't get why there's a need to go further than that in these discussions. 

Modifié par In Exile, 26 août 2013 - 03:18 .

[Herr Uhl]

LPPrince wrote...

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

The "dark elves" in the norse mythos were probably just dwarves. The other elves would be the normal elves.