432 réponses à ce sujet

[LPPrince]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

The "dark elves" in the norse mythos were probably just dwarves. The other elves would be the normal elves.

Yeah, didn't the dokkalfar in norse mythos live underground?

*goes researchin*

Welp, lemme get the accents in, the Ljósálfar lived in "heaven", and the Dökkálfar lived within the earth. Light elves being "fairer than the sun to look at" and dark elves being "darker than pitch".

Dunno so much about being dwarven though.

Anyway, I don't think Bioware needs to suddenly switch direction and take their elves in a Norse mythos styled direction in an effort to be different.

They had a good thing in DAO with the elves which could've been improved upon, but I felt DA2 just took it way down and now, with Inquisition, they've got to reaaaally pull it back up.

Which, from the alpha screens, it looks like they may be doing.

Modifié par LPPrince, 26 août 2013 - 03:40 .

[10K]

I agree the darkspawn were done pretty well in DA2, but the elves looked like funky anime character with those ridiculous large eyes. I'm mean have you seen Orana unmodded. She'd looked like she got beaten with the ugly stick. Whatever BW decides to do with the elves in DA3 I hope it's miles away from what they did in DA2.

[Lokiwithrope]

Would you rather have their builds be smaller? Have the male elves be just as bulky as human women?

[Herr Uhl]

LPPrince wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

The "dark elves" in the norse mythos were probably just dwarves. The other elves would be the normal elves.

Yeah, didn't the dokkalfar in norse mythos live underground?

*goes researchin*

Welp, lemme get the accents in, the Ljósálfar lived in "heaven", and the Dökkálfar lived within the earth. Light elves being "fairer than the sun to look at" and dark elves being "darker than pitch".

Dunno so much about being dwarven though.

The only time where the "dark elves" are mentioned is by Snorre Sturlasson, and the dark elves are described as doing the same thing as dwarves were described to do elsewhere.

And the "sky elf" description is the description given to elves in general in other norse mythology. The reason for making them evil and good might have to do with the influence of christianity.

Anyway, this is slightly offtopic.

[The Serge777]

My point about the honesty of your argument was simly the impression I got. You sounded like you were trying to add elements of racism and even pedophilia onto the opinions of others simply beause they didn't feel like they needed to specify what beuty was to them. 

Well, if folks are going to issue an opinion on something like beauty, particularly when the whole ideas as to what is beautiful is not only in question, but subjective, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask folks what the mean to ask what standard they're using.

Ok so fine 'why I didn't like the DA2 elves' Well the first ting was they were too skinny, i know they are described as slim but it just didn't work when it came to their hight and their limbs they looked to me like sick children with long arms and legs.  This also made the weapons they carry look far too big for them even fenris (with that sword) cae off incredibly cartoonish. The eyes were big but most of them had very slim faces which made their eyes look sort of buglike. Then of course some of the npc's (a few have been posted in thi blog) just looked awful . their jawline's and cheekbones didn't always seem to work with their face shapes, Some of the hairstyles ust didn't work on them at all and again so many of them ust looked like badly drawn cartoons.

Yes, I agree with some of these descriptions, if not the conclusions reached by them.  Tomwise is a good example of what you describe.  However, I felt that there were some elves in DA2 that didn't fit this world beyond Fenris and Merrill.  Pol didn't strike me as this, nor do I recall the two elves that confront Merrill outside the cave during a New Path as particularly "alien" based upon your definition.  

 However, they still meet the description I've read of elves, namely that they are slender, humanoid with pointy ears as opposed to being small humans with pointy ears.

Ok so I specified and I don't think any of that is unreasonable. The thing is to me it sounds like you are arguing for what you want the elves to look like and not how thy should look if you take the lore into account. 
There are plenty of games with interesting, different looking elf designs that are done well try maybe skyrim. 

And what does the lore say?  I would be happy to back down if Dragon Age lore explicitly stated that elves look like relatively short, slender humans with pointy ears. 

And, no, I'm not talking about Elder Scrolls.  I'm talking about DA, which is a franchise I prefer. 

Oh, and, for the sake of full disclosure, I happen not to find the new elf models as terrible at all.  In fact, I like them.  In addition to the issue I've pointed out numerous times -- lack of consistency in franchise visuals -- my other issue with them is that they are almost indistinguishable from DA humans.  I think it's a shame, but -- as I said in my original post -- I recognize that my perspective is in the minority.  That does not, however, mean that my arguments are invalid within the context of DA (as opposed to within the context of fantasy writ large, which is what many folks are appealing to... vainly and inapproprately, IMO). 

[Das Tentakel]

Herr Uhl wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

LPPrince wrote...

Sometimes I get the feeling some folks want a drastic change in elves like what we got in Amalur which was based a bit on Norse mythos.

The "dark elves" in the norse mythos were probably just dwarves. The other elves would be the normal elves.

Yeah, didn't the dokkalfar in norse mythos live underground?

*goes researchin*

Welp, lemme get the accents in, the Ljósálfar lived in "heaven", and the Dökkálfar lived within the earth. Light elves being "fairer than the sun to look at" and dark elves being "darker than pitch".

Dunno so much about being dwarven though.

The only time where the "dark elves" are mentioned is by Snorre Sturlasson, and the dark elves are described as doing the same thing as dwarves were described to do elsewhere.

And the "sky elf" description is the description given to elves in general in other norse mythology. The reason for making them evil and good might have to do with the influence of christianity.

Anyway, this is slightly offtopic.

In some regional traditions in the Low Countries, a dwarf - basically reduced to a gnome, a 'kabouter' - is called an 'alverman', or Elf-man. They are associated with old Iron Age and Roman-era tumuli, but are usually considered benign. High to late medieval German romances don't really have bad things to say about the Dwarves either. Well, except for being pagans, perhaps.

But yeah, off-topic .

Would be cool to have more mythical dwarves, though, as shapeshifting magicians, rather than subterranean workaholics...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 26 août 2013 - 07:56 .

[Rawgrim]

Fun to watch americans discuss norse mythology, using "Americanized translations".

[cjones91]

The Serge777 wrote...

My point about the honesty of your argument was simly the impression I got. You sounded like you were trying to add elements of racism and even pedophilia onto the opinions of others simply beause they didn't feel like they needed to specify what beuty was to them. 

Well, if folks are going to issue an opinion on something like beauty, particularly when the whole ideas as to what is beautiful is not only in question, but subjective, then I don't think it's unreasonable to ask folks what the mean to ask what standard they're using.

Ok so fine 'why I didn't like the DA2 elves' Well the first ting was they were too skinny, i know they are described as slim but it just didn't work when it came to their hight and their limbs they looked to me like sick children with long arms and legs.  This also made the weapons they carry look far too big for them even fenris (with that sword) cae off incredibly cartoonish. The eyes were big but most of them had very slim faces which made their eyes look sort of buglike. Then of course some of the npc's (a few have been posted in thi blog) just looked awful . their jawline's and cheekbones didn't always seem to work with their face shapes, Some of the hairstyles ust didn't work on them at all and again so many of them ust looked like badly drawn cartoons.

Yes, I agree with some of these descriptions, if not the conclusions reached by them.  Tomwise is a good example of what you describe.  However, I felt that there were some elves in DA2 that didn't fit this world beyond Fenris and Merrill.  Pol didn't strike me as this, nor do I recall the two elves that confront Merrill outside the cave during a New Path as particularly "alien" based upon your definition.  

 However, they still meet the description I've read of elves, namely that they are slender, humanoid with pointy ears as opposed to being small humans with pointy ears.

Ok so I specified and I don't think any of that is unreasonable. The thing is to me it sounds like you are arguing for what you want the elves to look like and not how thy should look if you take the lore into account. 
There are plenty of games with interesting, different looking elf designs that are done well try maybe skyrim. 

And what does the lore say?  I would be happy to back down if Dragon Age lore explicitly stated that elves look like relatively short, slender humans with pointy ears. 

And, no, I'm not talking about Elder Scrolls.  I'm talking about DA, which is a franchise I prefer. 

Oh, and, for the sake of full disclosure, I happen not to find the new elf models as terrible at all.  In fact, I like them.  In addition to the issue I've pointed out numerous times -- lack of consistency in franchise visuals -- my other issue with them is that they are almost indistinguishable from DA humans.  I think it's a shame, but -- as I said in my original post -- I recognize that my perspective is in the minority.  That does not, however, mean that my arguments are invalid within the context of DA (as opposed to within the context of fantasy writ large, which is what many folks are appealing to... vainly and inapproprately, IMO). 

The lore states that DA elves had human features and that their DA:O appearance was what they look like,of course you could argue all day about that but if DA2 elves were introduced in DA:O then people would'nt complain.

However they were not part of the lore and changing only the elves and not anyone else would be breaking the lore just to make a statement.

[The Serge777]

So you want the elves to change just to make a statement even if it went against the lore?

What lore?  I'm happy to acquiesce this point if someone can point to specific "Word of God" that elves are intended to look just like somewhat short, slender humans with pointy ears.  This would make DA2, in effect, a retcon (which would be fun to discuss from the perspective of the kossith... although I suppose they did take pains to describe the nature of their horns).

And, no, I'm not into changing things just for the sake of changing them.  As a die-hard comic book fan, I've often railed against what I perceived as change for its own sake.  Indeed, one of the few costume changes in comic history I didn't have an issue with was adding pants (and maybe that jacket) to Wonder Woman.  Generally speaking, though, I'm all for "classics." This is different though because I suspect (but don't claim to know for certain) that DAO faced limited graphics resources (a frequent critical and popular complaint upon release) when it came out of the gate and that various racial designs were simplified intentionally.  With that games commercial success and extra funds doubtlessly given to produce it, and a desire to develop a visually distinct element to the franchise, the designers decided to do something to set not only the world apart, but to make the elves, darkspawn (which no longer looked like Tolkienesque or D&D orcs), kossith, and (to a far lesser degree) dwarves visually distinct from humans. I wonder if the direction DAI is taking elves is a step backwards because the franchise appears to be abandoning not only a unique visual take on one of the major fantasy races, but bowing out to expediency and "tradition." 

If this is vanity (as some folks have posted), I'm fine with that.

Honestly the DA2 elves and darkspawn looked horrible and out of place in my opinion,also enough with the humans with pointy ears complaint because it's annoying.

Horrible in what sense?  You're under no obligation to clarify, but these sorts of statements  tend to come across as though they are fact rather than opinion (although you do write that it's your opinion).

I'm sorry you find my (accurate) assessment of DAO elves as "humans with pointy ears" as "annoying;" however, that's what we're working with and I stand by that claim.

[Rawgrim]

The humans and dwarves looked belivable, the elves and darspawn looked like they were copied and pasted in from a cartoon of sorts. Roger Rabbit style.

[The Serge777]

cjones91 wrote...

The lore states that DA elves had human features and that their DA:O appearance was what they look like,of course you could argue all day about that but if DA2 elves were introduced in DA:O then people would'nt complain.

And they seem to have humanoid features as far as I can tell in DA2.  However, I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere (and I admit that I might have missed it) that they looked just like small, slender humans with pointy ears. 

I do agree with you that if the elves appeared in DAO in a manner akin to their DA2 visuals, people would have reacted less strenuously (and they probably wouldn't call them ugly as frequently either, but that's my suspicion).

However they were not part of the lore and changing only the elves and not anyone else would be breaking the lore just to make a statement.

They didn't just "change" the elves; they also changed kossith and darkspawn (and to a far lesser degree, dwarves).  I do think they were making a statement, though, and it was a reasonable one: we want something that you can look at and know its Dragon Age and not another franchise. 

[cjones91]

The Serge777 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

The lore states that DA elves had human features and that their DA:O appearance was what they look like,of course you could argue all day about that but if DA2 elves were introduced in DA:O then people would'nt complain.

And they seem to have humanoid features as far as I can tell in DA2.  However, I don't see it explicitly stated anywhere (and I admit that I might have missed it) that they looked just like small, slender humans with pointy ears. 

I do agree with you that if the elves appeared in DAO in a manner akin to their DA2 visuals, people would have reacted less strenuously (and they probably wouldn't call them ugly as frequently either, but that's my suspicion).

However they were not part of the lore and changing only the elves and not anyone else would be breaking the lore just to make a statement.

They didn't just "change" the elves; they also changed kossith and darkspawn (and to a far lesser degree, dwarves).  I do think they were making a statement, though, and it was a reasonable one: we want something that you can look at and know its Dragon Age and not another franchise. 

They did'nt change the dwarves that much and the Qunari were described as being ashen giants with horns.The only reason Sten and the copy pasted Qunari were different was because of hardware limitations.The elves and darkspawn's design in DA2 was out of place since darkspawn are supposed to be twisted versions of the races in Thedas while elves were supposed to very attractive to humans and had human features.

[CARL_DF90]

Well, I'm glad that they redesigned them in DA:I because I HATED the look in DAII.

[The Serge777]

cjones91 wrote...

I don't know why they always complain about "humans with pointy ears" yet they ignore the dwarves.It could be a case of elves being more popular and so those people want them to be weird looking mutants just so they could say"Hey look!Our elves are different, come see how special they are!".

I'm trying not to presume that you're referring to me when you write "they," but in the off-chance you are referring to me, I wrote this yesterday.  Since it's on page 8 of this very long thread and since I know it's difficult to read every individual post when they get this long, it's reasonable that you and the other person missed it.

The Serge777...
As an aside, I didn't bring dwarves up in this or other threads because the changes between DAO and DA2 were inconsequential. That having been said, I would have loved it if the designers for DA2 went in a different direction for dwarves as well, like different coloring (related to various types of rocks and stone) and different types of features (like incredibly bright eyes, which some of the dwarves -- like Bartran-- had).

[The Serge777]

cjones91 wrote...

They did'nt change the dwarves that much and the Qunari were described as being ashen giants with horns.The only reason Sten and the copy pasted Qunari were different was because of hardware limitations.The elves and darkspawn's design in DA2 was out of place since darkspawn are supposed to be twisted versions of the races in Thedas while elves were supposed to very attractive to humans and had human features.

The kossith change was a retcon that they added into the lore.  Not that retcon is a bad word and I happen to approve of the change and think the way they did it was clever (plus, it synced the ogres more visually to the kossith).  Neverheless, change they did and I seem to recall some grousing about that too back in the day.

Hurlocks still look like they could have come from humans.  Genlocks still look like corrupted dwarves (even have little beards unlike the gunlocks in DAO).  And elves are clearly attractive to the humans of Thedas and have humanoid features, if not entirely human features.  It's all there. 

[Nerevar-as]

The Serge777 wrote...

So, the new designs for the elf (and dwarf) in DA:I and I am curious to hear how others feel about it. 

I know that a lot of folks were unpleased with the redesign elves (and to a lesser extend, qunari) went through in DAII.  I was not among that number.  I thought that the DAII elves (and darkspawn, actually) were an excellent move because they looked like a distinct race rather than just shorter humans with pointy ears.  Everything from their gait to their physiognomy pointed to something clearly not human. 

With what we've seen so far (and it's admittedly little), I fear that the DAI elves are a step backwards.  It appears (emphasis on appears) that there's very little difference between the elves and humans aside from the ears yet again. But I'm wondering if my view is in the minority on BSN (and I suspect it is) or not and, if so, why the backward step in racial design is a good thing to some.

Tolkien elves, that are obviously the inspiration for DA elves (and most fantasy elves), look like beautiful tall slender humans who may or not have pointy ears (movie had, but book lore didn´t specify as far as I can remember). DA2 looked like a tribe with too much interbreeding going on. DA2 tried to go for uniqueness for the sake of it, resulting in those poor things with a weird forehead-nose and donkey ears.

I get they want DA to have its own personality, and games having a visual component art is part of it, but elves already felt their own thing in Origins (aside from Sapkowski, I haven´t seen elves as the underdog). DS were also the always evil ceatures you killed without remorse. Both lost a good part of their appeal to many players because they looked that weird and/or silly. Here visuals hurt the overall feeling of the concept.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 26 août 2013 - 10:03 .

[cjones91]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

d4eaming wrote...

I think people need to learn to seperate their personal tastes from fact. It is not a "fact" that DA2 elves were ugly, deformed, or alien. It's an opinion, and it's distinctly grating when people take it upon themselves to speak their tastes as fact and act like they get to represent my opinion (and the whole of the fanbase). You hate DA2 elves, ok good for you. But you don't get to speak for me.

I hate the DAO elf design because there is nothing interesting about them. They're short, somewhat slimmer, and have pointed ears. That's so very mundane. Their lore, religion, and history is fascinating, which is why I choose to play elves. Not because I particularly liked how they looked. Yes, I did design my elf characters in a way that was aesthetically pleasing, and I think Zevran is fairly attractive, but their designs just don't speak to me at all.

That's why I love the DA2 design. They have a distinctive look, they are recognizably elven, even from a distance. I find them pretty- not ugly, gross, alien, deformed, or whatever other stupid thing people use to describe them. Some people don't like them. That's fine. Some people don't like the DAO elves either.

Using the backround NPCs as proof that DA2 elves are bad is disingenious, seeing as background NPCs deliberately don't get the same polish as the main characters. Same with awkward screenshots, like the one with Fenris. I'm sure we could find a thousand stupid looking screenshots from DAO to "prove" those elves were a terrible design, too. (Frankly, it bugs we WAY MORE to see my arcane warrior's weapons clipping through his body so he'd be decappitating himself constantly than an occasional odd neck angle.)

As for the Tolkein elves, blah. Congrats, you get your conventionally attractive elves that have nothing special going for them- that has been currently shown. I find that disapointing. Yes, they are pretty, even without textures, and I will be content with it, but I won't be *happy* until we get a proper screenshot and I can decide if I really like them or not. It's yet another "human but slightly different" design that I personally find boring.

Again why complain about elves looking human when that's what they have always looked like?

Because this isn't about trying to score Tolkien points?Funny because I remember human looking elves existing even before Tolkien got his hands on them.

[LinksOcarina]

This entire thread is sad.

Not like elves NEED to be in Dragon Age to make it fantasy. The fact that they exist already makes it quaint and contrived to begin with. It annoys me so much when people complain about how the elves look because they have to follow a gestalt established by a dead linguistics professor, and why they exist in that realm as a canonical, stereotypical appearance.

How they look now, in the past, in the future is all irrelevent to how they are presented. If were gonna have elves in Dragon Age, make them compelling outside the standard cliches we come to expect. How they look is a completely pointless debate. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 26 août 2013 - 10:40 .

[cjones91]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Whatever. The point is that nobody is trying to stay unbendingly loyal to some mythological/Tolkien/whatever definition of what elves look like. This is about what people want them to look like now, regardless of how they've looked in the past.

Then create a new fantasy race because elves have a set in stone appearance with slight differences.Christ,this is just like with Twilight and how they tried to make vampires and werewolves "unique" and "special" when all they did was turn the concept into a joke.

Modifié par cjones91, 26 août 2013 - 10:41 .

[LinksOcarina]

cjones91 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Whatever. The point is that nobody is trying to stay unbendingly loyal to some mythological/Tolkien/whatever definition of what elves look like. This is about what people want them to look like now, regardless of how they've looked in the past.

Then create a new fantasy race because elves have a set in stone appearance with slight differences.Christ,this is just like with Twilight and how they tried to make vampires and werewolves "unique" and "special" when all they did was turn the concept into a joke.

Let's start then. Any ideas?

Or will we just pirate off other sources and be rigid in a subjective interpretation of something that doesn't ****ing exist to make it? Thats what everyone does, because we, as nerds, need to be told what is law and how things need to be all the time anyway. Hell, I know people who hate the Qunari because they are unique! Or at the very least, original enough to be unique to the Dragon Age world. 

Think about that for a minute...

[Elhanan]

The Serge777 wrote....

They didn't just "change" the elves; they also changed kossith and darkspawn (and to a far lesser degree, dwarves).  I do think they were making a statement, though, and it was a reasonable one: we want something that you can look at and know its Dragon Age and not another franchise. 

But the change in DA2 made them very similar to what I saw in Skyrim, and possibly to earlier TES games; much prefer what I am seeing currently for DAI.