432 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Whatever. The point is that nobody is trying to stay unbendingly loyal to some mythological/Tolkien/whatever definition of what elves look like. This is about what people want them to look like now, regardless of how they've looked in the past.

Then create a new fantasy race because elves have a set in stone appearance with slight differences.Christ,this is just like with Twilight and how they tried to make vampires and werewolves "unique" and "special" when all they did was turn the concept into a joke.

Or like how Nosferatu is credited with inventing that whole "vampires can't go out in sunlight" thing?  Should that not have happened?  Mythology and folklore evolve.  That is their nature.  That is what makes them different from copyrighted static works by specific people.  There's nothing "set in stone" about it except your peception of it. 

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

[LinksOcarina]

Elhanan wrote...

The Serge777 wrote....

They didn't just "change" the elves; they also changed kossith and darkspawn (and to a far lesser degree, dwarves).  I do think they were making a statement, though, and it was a reasonable one: we want something that you can look at and know its Dragon Age and not another franchise. 

But the change in DA2 made them very similar to what I saw in Skyrim, and possibly to earlier TES games; much prefer what I am seeing currently for DAI.

How does this:



remind you of this:



And since Dragon Age 2 came out first...shouldn't it be what you saw in Skyrim reminded you of Dragon Age 2?

If anything, the Inquisition look is akin to Skyrim! 

[LinksOcarina]

cjones91 wrote...

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

That is a very determinist attitude on things. One that is wholly dependent on everything being the status quo based upon their traits and characterization. It is also why most fantasy works are contrived and cliched.

[cjones91]

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

That is a very determinist attitude on things. One that is wholly dependent on everything being the status quo based upon their traits and characterization. It is also why most fantasy works are contrived and cliched.

All I'm trying to say is certain concepts are not easily discarded and a writer has to work around those concepts in order to build a fantasy world.Sometimes being clich'e means respecting the concepts of the story and changing established races has to be done with a very good reason.

[LinksOcarina]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Considering the culture of the elves has stayed the same from DAO to now, and the only thing that is changing is their appearance, how are we "removing all the concepts" of elves? Unless you are arguing their appearance is the only reason they fit the "elf" definition anyway, which would be a pretty shallow definition.

Also the wrong definition, since this is what elves looked like in the 19th century. Or at least one interpretation.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

That is a very determinist attitude on things. One that is wholly dependent on everything being the status quo based upon their traits and characterization. It is also why most fantasy works are contrived and cliched.

You say "contrived and cliched" like it's a bad thing.

[LinksOcarina]

cjones91 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

That is a very determinist attitude on things. One that is wholly dependent on everything being the status quo based upon their traits and characterization. It is also why most fantasy works are contrived and cliched.

All I'm trying to say is certain concepts are not easily discarded and a writer has to work around those concepts in order to build a fantasy world.Sometimes being clich'e means respecting the concepts of the story and changing established races has to be done with a very good reason.

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

You say "contrived and cliched" like it's a bad thing. 

On their own no,cliches are ok. But why invite cliches that are unecessary? Why include elves at all? Do you need elves for it to be fantasy. 

Modifié par LinksOcarina, 26 août 2013 - 11:08 .

[Nerevar-as]

LinksOcarina wrote...

I see that despite improvements in engines and so on, TES still goes for ugly elves (well, ugly everythings). They look like elongated through Photoshop.

And stop using Merrill as example of DA2. They had to cheat with the elf design to make her attractive. Which should say how much they trusted the new facial features.

And why not change humans too? They can´t be more generic and can see them everyday. Let´s change a few things and still claim they are human - like those 100% human DNA blue guys from Prometheus.<_<

[cjones91]

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Some things are set in stone.For example vampires are creatures who are active during the night and they drink human blood,they are weak against sunlight,getting stabbed in the heart,garlic and holy objects.Now some stories like Blade change it up but they still keep some of those concepts alive when doing so.If you remove all the concepts of vampires then you don't have vampires but something else instead.

Same thing with elves if you remove all the concepts that make elves who they are then you are better off just making a new fantasy race altogether.

That is a very determinist attitude on things. One that is wholly dependent on everything being the status quo based upon their traits and characterization. It is also why most fantasy works are contrived and cliched.

All I'm trying to say is certain concepts are not easily discarded and a writer has to work around those concepts in order to build a fantasy world.Sometimes being clich'e means respecting the concepts of the story and changing established races has to be done with a very good reason.

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

True,but anyone trying to write a story set in a D&D fantasy world has to obey the concepts and rules of those types of settings.

[ScarMK]

Last I checked, Dragon Age wasn't based on D&D.

[LinksOcarina]

Nerevar-as wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

I see that despite improvements in engines and so on, TES still goes for ugly elves (well, ugly everythings). They look like elongated through Photoshop.

And stop using Merrill as example of DA2. They had to cheat with the elf design to make her attractive. Which should say how much they trusted the new facial features.

And why not change humans too? They can´t be more generic and can see them everyday. Let´s change a few things and still claim they are human - like those 100% human DNA blue guys from Prometheus.<_<

Ok.



There you go, since Merill is apparently an unfair example. 

Also don't be obtuse. Humans are part and parcel for fantasy tropes too. You either have them or you don't, simple as that.  You can gut them all together or keep them, or make them all a non-descript race to make them unique, mullatos basically. 

[Nerevar-as]

LinksOcarina wrote...

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

Try it. DA2 is in fact a fantasy world very badly done, for example how lore often doesn´t match with what we see, visuals are given priority over common sense, and so on. It has rules, and then ignores them. And still pretends to be taken seriously to a point. I think they want to be thought of closer to Martin than Howards or Burroughs.

[LinksOcarina]

cjones91 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

True,but anyone trying to write a story set in a D&D fantasy world has to obey the concepts and rules of those types of settings.

No. And if you are you are doing it wrong. Hell, the writers of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun rarely follow the concepts and rules of their own settings, let alone the tropes established by the stereotypes perpetuated from the mid-20th century. 

[addiction21]

cjones91 wrote...

True,but anyone trying to write a story set in a D&D fantasy world has to obey the concepts and rules of those types of settings.

End elves transcend D&D or Tolkien.

Some prefer the DAO elves others prefer DA2. DEAL WITH IT. Stop being so very upset there are other people in the world that don't like what you like and MOVE ON.

[LinksOcarina]

Nerevar-as wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

Try it. DA2 is in fact a fantasy world very badly done, for example how lore often doesn´t match with what we see, visuals are given priority over common sense, and so on. It has rules, and then ignores them. And still pretends to be taken seriously to a point. I think they want to be thought of closer to Martin than Howards or Burroughs.

They are, ironically. Although Martin is overrated as it is.

As for rules and lore...if you are talking about visuals, well, deal with it I guess because that doesn't matter too much. 

[LinksOcarina]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
And why not change humans too? They can´t be more generic and can see them everyday. Let´s change a few things and still claim they are human - like those 100% human DNA blue guys from Prometheus.<_<

Heck, I'd be 100% behind a game where you can't play as humans at all.

Ive played one called Ironclaw before in tabletop form. Basically think the Disney Robin Hood movie with a Game of Thrones atmosphere. All you play as are anthro-animals and its a well made game.

that's just one example of how to make a world without common tropes. As I said, you don't need them. 

[Loup Blanc]

Love the new elf design. Better than DAO and much better than the repulsive DA2 models.

[cjones91]

addiction21 wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

True,but anyone trying to write a story set in a D&D fantasy world has to obey the concepts and rules of those types of settings.

End elves transcend D&D or Tolkien.

Some prefer the DAO elves others prefer DA2. DEAL WITH IT. Stop being so very upset there are other people in the world that don't like what you like and MOVE ON.

I'm not upset with anything.I just like having debates about this sort of thing since I get to hear other perpsectives besides my own.

[Nerevar-as]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Nerevar-as wrote...
And why not change humans too? They can´t be more generic and can see them everyday. Let´s change a few things and still claim they are human - like those 100% human DNA blue guys from Prometheus.<_<

Heck, I'd be 100% behind a game where you can't play as humans at all.

Can´t play as or not humans around?