432 réponses à ce sujet

[Realmzmaster]

The model elf that most talk about has less to do with Tolkien than Gary Gygax. Tolkien's elf according to The Silmarillion had leaf shaped ears not necessarily pointed. Tolkien elves also were as tall and most elven races were taller (up to 7 feet) than humans. The differences between humans and elves were subtle. Elves were considered beautiful.

The D & D description of elves have then shorter (4 ' 6" to 5' 6") than humans with pointed ears. The D & D elves were considered to be hauntingly beautiful to some of the other races.

I just finished reading the codex entries for DAO and no where do they say that the elves are beautiful. What the entries do say is that elves are a humanoid race. Elves are typically shorter than humans and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears. So can someone point me to the codex. I may have missed it in my reading.

Also all the p n p systems do not agree on the definition. T & T elf is more Tolkien in nature except they have pointed ears.
Runequest treats them as non-human and a member of the Aldryami (which consists of elves, dryads, pixies ( which are considered to be diminutive elves) and runners).

So the blame for the "accepted" definition of elf is more at the feet of Gygax than Tolkien.

[In Exile]

Faerunner wrote...
 I would argue that he's also an example of an author that I wouldn't mind coming up with his own twist because he had specific, in-story reasons for doing it. He knew what kind of world he wanted to create and what kind of people he wanted in it, so he made changes accordingly.

He didn't have to call them elves though is my point, and one of the objections that comes up here is that the problem isn't just the apperance, it's calling them elves instead of, I dunno, fluxonian. 

Re: your discussion of Tolkien, I think you're right, but think of it this way. The elves were a mixture of lots of things. We could imagine (on the message boards of today) someone objected that Tolkien put all of these 'established' fictional traditions into a blender to get his 'elves', and then used a term that meant something else (elf) to refer to it instead of just making it his own fantasy race. 

All I'm trying to get at - without being harsh, and if I have, I do apologize   - is that someone could always use the argument that something is established as being a good reason not to mess with that idea. Now, it's one thing to say that DA:O established a look to the elves and that they were "traditional" elves, so retconning a bad change is a bad choice. I agree with that. Where I have a hard time is when we start talking about what elves should be in the abstract. 

You don't have to join in then.

I'm trying to stay out, but they are a thread on elves. I'm a fan of elves, and so I track to see if there isn't a side discussion about DA:O/DA2 elves in generally coming up. 

[In Exile]

The Serge777 wrote...
The kossith change was a retcon that they added into the lore.  Not that retcon is a bad word and I happen to approve of the change and think the way they did it was clever (plus, it synced the ogres more visually to the kossith).  Neverheless, change they did and I seem to recall some grousing about that too back in the day.

It's not right to say that it was a retcon. The qunari were originally ienvisioned to have horns (and a tail at one point, too). The horns were cut because of trouble rendering it in-game and having proper helmets for Sten, even though they kept the ogre design. They went back to the (old) qunari design for DA2 when the decision came down to differentiate the races visually. 

It's a retcon from DA:O's perspective, but I would say that's entirely the right word for it because it's actually going back further into the past. 

[In Exile]

Realmzmaster wrote...
I just finished reading the codex entries for DAO and no where do they say that the elves are beautiful. What the entries do say is that elves are a humanoid race. Elves are typically shorter than humans and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears. So can someone point me to the codex. I may have missed it in my reading.

That line comes from the HN origin when you hit on the female elf maid, using a thinly vieled "you're hot" comment wrapped up in "Yo, my buddy Gilbert totally said female elves are bangable from the human POV" in less coarse language. It's the only time it's mentioned. 

[d4eaming]

The argument that there is a formula that you MUST follow, or your elves/dwarves/whatever aren't "real" elves/dwarves/whatever is freaking bizarre.

Harry Potter elves vs DND elves (sylvan elves, aquatic elves, WINGED elves, drow, moon elves, etc etc) vs Tolkein "looks like a beautiful human" elves, vs the hundreds of other conceptions, including actual mythology from human cultures for thousands of years ("little people" that play tricks on mortals or lure them off to unknown fates and so forth).

There is absolutely no "set in stone" concept of an elf. Anyone claiming such is doing nothing but propagating their personal opinion and discarding out of hand anything that contradicts them.

TV Tropes' "Our elves are different" for even more examples. (I am not responsible for getting lost in TV Tropes' land, enter at your own risk).

My point is, there IS no preset elf design. Clinging onto Tolkein or Gygax as if they are the ultimate arbitor of what makes an elf is ridiculous. I find the aversions and subversions of the elf concept beyond and away more interesting than the same rehashed cliche crap that some people prefer.

DA has already subverted a lot of what makes an elf an elf (the underdog, the slave, abused and mistreated, no special magical ability), yet giving them a less "pointy eared human" appearance is offensive.

I will still choose to play an elf in their games, because I like the culture and lore they have designed for their elves, but I am certainly not going to pretend that they are following any hard-coded design that needs their looks to be nothing more than regurgitated Tolkein.

[Siven80]

Cant be any worse than the DA2 elves.

[Shadow Fox]

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

Ragabul the Ontarah wrote...

Whatever. The point is that nobody is trying to stay unbendingly loyal to some mythological/Tolkien/whatever definition of what elves look like. This is about what people want them to look like now, regardless of how they've looked in the past.

Then create a new fantasy race because elves have a set in stone appearance with slight differences.Christ,this is just like with Twilight and how they tried to make vampires and werewolves "unique" and "special" when all they did was turn the concept into a joke.

Or like how Nosferatu is credited with inventing that whole "vampires can't go out in sunlight" thing?  Should that not have happened?  Mythology and folklore evolve.  That is their nature.  That is what makes them different from copyrighted static works by specific people.  There's nothing "set in stone" about it except your peception of it. 

Funnily enough Twilight is closer to the original werewolf mythos then the man beast Universal Studios popularized.

[Bionuts]

A beautiful elf is one that very much turns you on.

[Azaron Nightblade]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Look at the bone structure of the head in the different pictures. Elves are distinct. What they aren't any more is ugly. I guess some might see that alone as becoming too human again, but I think it's a vast improvement over DA2's design.

^That pretty much sums up my opinion on it.
So I'm very glad about the changes.
And Bioware can rest easy knowing that they won't be dealing with angry Harry Potter fans for stealing their favorite house elves.

[Elhanan]

LinksOcarina wrote...


How does this:

remind you of this:



And since Dragon Age 2 came out first...shouldn't it be what you saw in Skyrim reminded you of Dragon Age 2?

True that Merrill does not resemble these two, and that DA2 was before Skyrim. But others have already stated that she is rather unique in the game.

Plus, if you look at these as well as another on the same Wiki page, they appear to resemble the abominations with Mohawks seen in DA2, And as I have not played any prior TES game, but have seen photos of some rather alien looking Elves, and they bear some resemblance to the DA2 Elves in the Alienage. IMO.

[TuringPoint]

I can see where the OP is coming from.  However, if I'm going to relate to an Elf as my PC, I want them to look somewhat more normal, and less like goblins.   Even if they look a little human.  Honestly, I thought that was an interesting twist.  So many fantasy RPG's do the exaggerated, alien-looking elves, and DA:O was putting all the regular fantasy things in to a context that was more relatable to real-life.  So, why not make elves a little more human looking?

They still had exaggerated ears, and finer features, and they were shorter.  They were recognizably elven.

Modifié par Alocormin, 27 août 2013 - 04:01 .

[MaraGriffyn]

I liked the concept of the elves in DA2 better than DAO, though the execution was flawed in some cases. The DAI elves look pretty good to me too, but we'll see how they turn out in game. That'll be the real test - especially once we can see how the full bodies look compared to each other.

Also, I don't really give a crap which classic fantasy author (if any) DA's elves are modeled most after. Dragon Age elves are Dragon Age elves. I just want a visual that is interesting and distinctive.

Modifié par MaraGriffyn, 27 août 2013 - 07:54 .

[Rawgrim]

LinksOcarina wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

LinksOcarina wrote...

 All concepts can be discarded because you don't need ANYTHING to build a fantasy world. It's really not that hard. 

True,but anyone trying to write a story set in a D&D fantasy world has to obey the concepts and rules of those types of settings.

No. And if you are you are doing it wrong. Hell, the writers of Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Dark Sun rarely follow the concepts and rules of their own settings, let alone the tropes established by the stereotypes perpetuated from the mid-20th century. 

What have you been smoking? The FR and Dragonlance writers have to follow the gamerules and the setting rules ALOT. I know one of them that writes D&D books, and she gets given all the info on the area in the setting where she is writing a story, and she is given very clear messages on whats not allowed to do and so forth. The same goes for the magic system and the rules of magic within the setting. They don`t get to make up spells of their own, and things like that.


If you think creating a fantasy world isn`t hard, you don`t have a clue. Check out one of Brandon Sanderson`s lectures on the subject. Can find those on youtube. Its a huge, highly involved process.

[Realmzmaster]

In Exile wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
I just finished reading the codex entries for DAO and no where do they say that the elves are beautiful. What the entries do say is that elves are a humanoid race. Elves are typically shorter than humans and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears. So can someone point me to the codex. I may have missed it in my reading.

That line comes from the HN origin when you hit on the female elf maid, using a thinly vieled "you're hot" comment wrapped up in "Yo, my buddy Gilbert totally said female elves are bangable from the human POV" in less coarse language. It's the only time it's mentioned. 

You mean Iona. Who you could not tell was an elf because her hair hide her ears, so she looked human. The only way you know she is not human was during the introduction There was nothing that distinctly said I am an elf.
So nowhere other than that is it even mentioned that elves are beautiful in the DA universe.

So nowhere in the DA lore is it mentioned that elves are beautiful. This is simply posters bringing their preconceptions or what has been in the past  into the DA lore.

I see very few remember how the elves look in the Hobbit by Rankin Bass.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 27 août 2013 - 08:20 .

[Dutchess]

Realmzmaster wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
I just finished reading the codex entries for DAO and no where do they say that the elves are beautiful. What the entries do say is that elves are a humanoid race. Elves are typically shorter than humans and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears. So can someone point me to the codex. I may have missed it in my reading.

That line comes from the HN origin when you hit on the female elf maid, using a thinly vieled "you're hot" comment wrapped up in "Yo, my buddy Gilbert totally said female elves are bangable from the human POV" in less coarse language. It's the only time it's mentioned. 

You mean Iona. Who you could not tell was an elf because her hair hide her ears, so she looked human. The only way you know she is not human was during the introduction There was nothing that distinctly said I am an elf.
So nowhere other than that is it even mentioned that elves are beautiful in the DA universe.

So nowhere in the DA lore is it mentioned that elves are beautiful. This is simply posters bringing their preconceptions or what has been in the past  into the DA lore.

I see very few remember how the elves look in the Hobbit by Rankin Bass.

Most people base themselves on a quote from Zevran. When asked about his life as a Crow, he says that elves are considered beautiful by most humans, which makes it easier for elven assassins to get close to their target.

[Direwolf0294]

Elves in DA:O looked relatively unique (it's rare to find elves now-a-days who are shorter than humans) and were interesting because of it.
Elves in DA2 were weird looking cat/na'vi people. More unique than DA:O's elves, but also dumb looking and not as interesting.
Elves in DA:I look more like classic Tolkien elves. They're no longer unique, but it's a good design (there's a reason so many others use it) and far better than what we got in DA2.

[Clocks4]

I liked the elves in DA:O and the elves in DA2. They were different, but they were still good.

[Noviere]

I liked the intention behind the re-design of the elves in DA2... I just feel it went from one extreme(humans with pointy ears) to another(unappealingly weird). What little we've seen of DAI's elves looks good to me. It may be a little too human, but I prefer that to the ugly weirdness of DA2.

At the moment, I think it's way to early to tell. We've literally seen 2 pictures of elves so far.

[Eterna]

I thought they were hit and miss in DA2, some looked pretty good, others were hideous.

[Felya87]

renjility wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

In Exile wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...
I just finished reading the codex entries for DAO and no where do they say that the elves are beautiful. What the entries do say is that elves are a humanoid race. Elves are typically shorter than humans and have a slender, lithe build and pointed ears. So can someone point me to the codex. I may have missed it in my reading.

That line comes from the HN origin when you hit on the female elf maid, using a thinly vieled "you're hot" comment wrapped up in "Yo, my buddy Gilbert totally said female elves are bangable from the human POV" in less coarse language. It's the only time it's mentioned. 

You mean Iona. Who you could not tell was an elf because her hair hide her ears, so she looked human. The only way you know she is not human was during the introduction There was nothing that distinctly said I am an elf.
So nowhere other than that is it even mentioned that elves are beautiful in the DA universe.

So nowhere in the DA lore is it mentioned that elves are beautiful. This is simply posters bringing their preconceptions or what has been in the past  into the DA lore.

I see very few remember how the elves look in the Hobbit by Rankin Bass.

Most people base themselves on a quote from Zevran. When asked about his life as a Crow, he says that elves are considered beautiful by most humans, which makes it easier for elven assassins to get close to their target.

if I remeber correctly, Leliana too said something similar. (and about how my Warden raged because she talked about Elves as of cute kitten to keep at home. of course I'm exagerating a little, because I don't remeber the dialogue completely)

[maliluka]

when you are in the deep roads when you run into Hespith where if you are an elf she mentions you being exotic and something else, where as if you are a human you are bland and unlikely. I believe the elves were "implied" to be a beautiful race. Leliana does comment about them being nimble and dextrious and a pleasure to look upon.

[RobRam10]

Elves sucks, they were god ugly in DA II. DAI elves are a massive improvement.

[maliluka]

this is from dragon age wiki "In ancient times the elves ruled over Thedas alone, ageless and beautiful, until the humans came."

DA2 certainly messed up the elves. DAI is bringing the pretty back... but as always beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Modifié par maliluka, 27 août 2013 - 02:35 .