432 réponses à ce sujet

[The Serge777]

tiktac wrote...

i still liked the da2 design. it was awkward but thats kind of why i liked it, they looked like a different race rather than just pretty pointy eared people. and yeah thats the original myth or whatever but that hardly means theres no room for innovation. ive said it plenty of times but i am not a fan of the lotr look of the new ones, but they are an improvement over da:o (although origins had wonky graphics all around) and its good to see theyre listening to their fans. so even if i personally dont like it much, its a good sign for bioware.

that being said i dont quite get the whining over the elves not wearing shoes. it makes sense for the dalish at least, cultural things, etc.

This appeal to myth is suspect.  In some traditions, elves are tiny folk.  In other traditions, elves are stunted and hideous.  In other traditions (like Tolkien), they are tall, majestic Europeans.  And in still other traditions, they live in the North Pole where they make toys, stuff them in large bags for a fat man who then delivers their wares to children across the world. 

As for the shoes, I was originally put off by them, but like you, I ended up appreciating the attempt to -- yet again -- make them visually distinct from humans, particularly if they were Dalish.

[Realmzmaster]

cjones91 wrote...

ninsegtari wrote...

I support the DA2 elf design. I would hope that the final DAI version is simply an improved version. I certainly wouldn't want them to be humans with pointy ears again.

Enough with the humans with pointy ears complaint! Elves have always looked human ever since their creation so why change their design when there is nothing wrong with it?

No they have no always looked human. In Beowulf elves are considered along with ettins and orcs as misbegotten creatures condemned by God.

It was D & D description of elves that popularization the conception of elves that we have now. Even in Tolkien's works elves came in various forms of beauty also some races of elves could reach up to 6' 6" in height.

One of the reasons elves and dwarves look human is because that is more acceptable to humans. It was the same reason that Spock was a Vulcan (basically a human with pointed ears), because it was more acceptable than a blue skinned ant looking alien. Note that in Star Trek most of the alien looking crew members were no more than a back drop in a scene. Most of the alien races in Star Trek were the antagonists. It was not until Star Trek:TNG and Deep Space Nine that you had a chief cast memeber that actually looked alien and that was Worf. The other one was Data, but he was an android.
So the lore for elves being beautiful creatures is not that old in fact basically originated in the 20th century.

[Welsh Inferno]

dreamgazer wrote...

Yes, they took a step back. From ridiculousness.

The elves' redesign looks like a solid fusion of the first two games, distinct but appealing. I approve.

[MisanthropePrime]

One thing to consider is that the elves can produce fertile offspring with humans: which means, biologically, they are humans. To say that they should look like an entirely different species is unfounded.

[Ianamus]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

One thing to consider is that the elves can produce fertile offspring with humans: which means, biologically, they are humans. To say that they should look like an entirely different species is unfounded.

Well, humans are also capable of having offspring with dwarves (I don't know if they are fertile though). And we aren't sure yet if Kossith can reproduce with the other races. Biology on Thedas is probably not the same as in real life. 

I think Origins had thm looking a bit too human. It was hard to understand the prejudice when they lookedmore similar to humans than different human ethnicities. That said, Dragon Age 2 went way too far in the other direction and made them look incredibly awkward, to the point they didn't seem to fit. I'll see what they look like in-game in DA:I but so ar I'm hopeful. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2013 - 09:43 .

[MisanthropePrime]

EJ107 wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

One thing to consider is that the elves can produce fertile offspring with humans: which means, biologically, they are humans. To say that they should look like an entirely different species is unfounded.

Well, humans are also capable of having offspring with dwarves (I don't know if they are fertile though). And we aren't sure yet if Kossith can reproduce with the other races. 

I think Origins had thm looking a bit too human. It was hard to understand the prejudice when they lookedmore similar to humans than different human ethnicities. That said, Dragon Age 2 went way too far in the other direction and made them look incredibly awkward, to the point they didn't seem to fit. I'll see what they look like in-game in DA:I but so ar I'm hopeful. 

AFAIK a human and a dwarf mating produces a being that's a distinct hybrid, a half-dwarf, akin to a mule or a liger, while a human and an elf mating produces "just" a human. It's likely that dwarves are a separate species than humans/elves... and I'd guess Qunari are too because they are from another continent.

[Herr Uhl]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

AFAIK a human and a dwarf mating produces a being that's a distinct hybrid, a half-dwarf, akin to a mule or a liger, while a human and an elf mating produces "just" a human. It's likely that dwarves are a separate species than humans/elves... and I'd guess Qunari are too because they are from another continent.

But half dwarves are not sterile. If you breed a Corgi and a Husky, you get a new physical feature as well. Does this mean that they're separate species.

The elf-human thing makes no sense, and can only be explained by "magic".

[Ianamus]

Herr Uhl wrote...

The elf-human thing makes no sense, and can only be explained by "magic".

I always assumed the human genes for physical characteristics were dominant, but the child could still inherit something, be it hair colour or eye colour, from their elven parent. That is pure speculation on my part though. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2013 - 09:52 .

[In Exile]

Herr Uhl wrote...
The elf-human thing makes no sense, and can only be explained by "magic".

And the unfortunate implicit fantasy racism that happens with specism.

[wright1978]

dreamgazer wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Do we have any pictures of elves from DAI?

Dunno feels a bit like 2 steps forward and 1 step back to me.

[MisanthropePrime]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

AFAIK a human and a dwarf mating produces a being that's a distinct hybrid, a half-dwarf, akin to a mule or a liger, while a human and an elf mating produces "just" a human. It's likely that dwarves are a separate species than humans/elves... and I'd guess Qunari are too because they are from another continent.

But half dwarves are not sterile. If you breed a Corgi and a Husky, you get a new physical feature as well. Does this mean that they're separate species.

The elf-human thing makes no sense, and can only be explained by "magic".

We've actually never seen a half dwarf so I don't know if they're sterile or not, but the fact of the matter is that they produce a "half dwarf" and it has been said to be distinct. Corgis and huskies are the same species: canis lupus. The offspring of a corgi and a husky is still a dog, you do not at any point call it a "half dog".

Slim Couldry and Alistair both imply that humans with one elven parent (at least male humans with one elven parent) are completely fertile, though.

Elf makes total sense if you think of the gene that determines whether or not one is an elf as being recessive.

[Wulfram]

Filament wrote...

Nailing down the definition of species when it comes to fantasy races becomes a bit precarious. Are vulcans part of the human species, then? They're from another planet.

At least, elves should be the corgi of the human species.

Nailing the definition of species when it comes to real life is a bit precarious.  At least, no one's really managed to do it satisfactorily yet

[slimgrin]

wright1978 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...

Do we have any pictures of elves from DAI?

Dunno feels a bit like 2 steps forward and 1 step back to me.

This is why you aren't hired as a character artist.

[Herr Uhl]

MisanthropePrime wrote...

We've actually never seen a half dwarf so I don't know if they're sterile or not, but the fact of the matter is that they produce a "half dwarf" and it has been said to be distinct. Corgis and huskies are the same species: canis lupus. The offspring of a corgi and a husky is still a dog, you do not at any point call it a "half dog".

You could call it a half-corgi though.

Slim Couldry and Alistair both imply that humans with one elven parent (at least male humans with one elven parent) are completely fertile, though.

Elf makes total sense if you think of the gene that determines whether or not one is an elf as being recessive.

No, because they're in fact not recessive (they're not like blue eyes). In any case, if you call humans and elves the same species and think it makes sense, consider that we have WOG on that if a dwarf and elf shag, the resulting thing would be a dwarf. Thus dwarves are also the same species.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 24 août 2013 - 10:25 .

[Ianamus]

Faerunner wrote...

What do you mean? I think making the elves like rather human-like helped drive the real-world prejudice parallel home. People subjugating other people because they're shorter, slimmer, and more angular (this includes ears) doesn't seem all that different from people subjugating other people because they have darker pigment and coarser hair. DA:O's humans' reasons for mistreating the elves are arbitrary, and that's the point. It's not so different from how people treat each other in real life.

I meant that elves looked far more similar to the caucasian residents of Thedas in Origins than people of different ethnicities do in real life. It was difficult to believe that they would be treated so differently based on appearance when a simple hat covering the ears would make them easily pass for human. 

Modifié par EJ107, 24 août 2013 - 10:33 .

[MisanthropePrime]

Herr Uhl wrote...

MisanthropePrime wrote...

We've actually never seen a half dwarf so I don't know if they're sterile or not, but the fact of the matter is that they produce a "half dwarf" and it has been said to be distinct. Corgis and huskies are the same species: canis lupus. The offspring of a corgi and a husky is still a dog, you do not at any point call it a "half dog".

You could call it a half-corgi though.

Slim Couldry and Alistair both imply that humans with one elven parent (at least male humans with one elven parent) are completely fertile, though.

Elf makes total sense if you think of the gene that determines whether or not one is an elf as being recessive.

No, because they're in fact not recessive (they're not like blue eyes). In any case, if you call humans and elves the same species and think it makes sense, consider that we have WOG on that if a dwarf and elf shag, the resulting thing would be a dwarf. Thus dwarves are also the same species.

I was unaware of that "word of god". In that case, yes, I'd say dwarves, elves and humans are all the same species, then.

[AresKeith]

No they are not

[MisanthropePrime]

Yes they are!

[Plaintiff]

Well, they look like typical elves. They always did. DA2 wasn't as much of a departure as people like to pretend.

Frankly, I would've preferred it if they'd never had elves or dwarves. The existence of Qunari proves they're capable of making up original fantasy beings, so they should do that instead of beating Tolkien's horse to death.

[LPPrince]

I do not believe in any way that the DA:I elf design we've seen so far is a step backward.

I liked how elves looked in DAO, but hated their design in DA2.

This? This makes me optimistic. Its somewhere between the two. But I want to wait till we see them a bit further along before I make my own judgement.

I won't really know until the game is in front of me.

But for now, with the alpha stuff made public, I think its a great foundation to work from.

[The_11thDoctor]

Blackrising wrote...

I liked that the elves in DA 2 looked so different as well.

However, I'm gonna wait and see what the elves of DA:I look like in-game before I pass any kind of judgement.

Yeah, thats how I feel. I like them looking a bit alien from humans. It could have been executed better in DA2 to look more like the great 2d artwork, but thats always been a problem for DA team(matching up to the excellent 2d art)

[Ianamus]

Faerunner wrote...

Except that prejudice doesn't seem to be determined by pigment in this world so much as physical (and cultural)stature. The short, stout dwarves. The lithe, angular elves. The tall, lanky humans. The huge, dark kossith.

Anyway, by that logic, most Jews (particularly Ashke****) look far more similar to Caucasian gentiles than people of other ethnicities, yet have received horrible discrimination, and, in many times and places in the world, a similar amount of segregation and dehumanization. Most Jews can pass as gentile without even needing to cover parts of their body, but as soon as people learn of their heritage, faith or notice the Star of David hanging around their necks, suddenly treat them with the same scorn. 

By the way, you said that simply covering their ears would make them easily pass as humans. First of all, how long could they keep it up? Wear hats, head-coverings and/or their hair a certain way every day of their lives and not draw attention when most humans don't? Wouldn't it start to look suspicious to humans? If these short, slim, lithe, (unbearded if a male) people always take care to make sure their ears aren't exposed in a human society? If this happens often, I think most humans would have learned not to be fooled by a person who's built like an elf taking great care to hide their ears.

I know that discrimination is about more than just appearance, but with comments in-game and in the extended canon hinting that being attracted to elves is considered some kind of unusual fetish and hearing them described as 'alien' on occasion it sounded like the descrimination was at least partially due to their appearance.

The strong anti-semitism in Germany around WW2 also came with the belief that tall people with blonde hair and blue eyes were the superior race, which were physical characteristics very few Jewish people possesed. So there was a physical appearance element there as well. 

I'm sure that no elf could masquerade as a human permanantly, and I never said that they could. What I was getting at was that I didn't see how Elves could be seen as "alien" or an unusual fetish when, if you just covered up their ears, they looked practically 100% human. 

Modifié par EJ107, 25 août 2013 - 12:00 .