339 réponses à ce sujet

[Redbelle]

Product is another way of talking about something that been produced through a system.

In ME3's case it refer's to game code design arranged in a way that allows for the developer's vision to take form.

And ME3's vision was sadly lacking come the end. The mission's were largely successful in carrying forward the spirit of ME. But to find that choice doesn't matter at the end of the game. And that picking up a truck load of missle's from a planet has no effect on the outcome. Whereas in ME2 upgrading the armour had the added benefit of protecting the Normandy from attack..... and had the added benefit of keeping a crewman alive.

Well, one of the crafter's was on fire creatively in ME2..... Must have fallen asleep when ME3 was developed.

[David7204]

'Picking up a truck load of missiles from a planet' shouldn't have anything but a miniscule effect on the outcome.

Modifié par David7204, 27 août 2013 - 05:52 .

[Redbelle]

David7204 wrote...

'Picking up a truck load of missiles from a planet' shouldn't have anything but a miniscule effect on the outcome.

Not even a cutscene to reflect the act of acquiring them and their subsequent usage? To link that act with an outcome. Like ME2 did with it's Normandy upgrade's?

Because, seeing how upgrade acquisition affected gameplay is the direction ME took in that action's have consequences. As does inaction.

And learning what consequence's are to be had. And then exploring the game to see more consequence's is how ME2 became such a heavy hitter in the trilogy.

And I honestly expected BW to take that direction and keep rolling with it. Not offer up something that retreated from that direction and became so..... standardised, to nearly every other shooter out there.

ME became a hit because it did thing's the BW way. ME3 seems to be trying to get away from BW's RPG heritage and move into more traditional shooter settings. But what BW doesn't seem to understand is that it's precisely because of their RPG heritage, and them putting that into their games that they stood out over other shooters.

Like I said. I prefer my developer's to be craftsman and artisan's. People who know their craft and expand on their past works. ME3's stripped back offering tick' none of those boxes. AndI I figure out if it's because they lack faith in their audience. Or faith in themselves. Or both.

Modifié par Redbelle, 27 août 2013 - 06:05 .

[David7204]

First of all, save your 'BioWare hates RPGs' speech.

Secondly, a trivial action such as picking missiles off a planet shouldn't have anything but trivial consequences. So the answer is no.

[SlottsMachine]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, save your 'BioWare hates RPGs' speech.
 

Save your "Bioware doesn't hate RPG's" speech. 

[Redbelle]

David7204 wrote...

First of all, save your 'BioWare hates RPGs' speech.

Secondly, a trivial action such as picking missiles off a planet shouldn't have anything but trivial consequences. So the answer is no.

I need to correct you on something so there is no misunderstanding.

I did not say that BW hate's RPG's. Only that they appear to want to move away from the concept of RPG's that they have the most experience in producing. Such a switch may be possible. But they can use their past experience to inform their new direction. They did it in ME1 and 2 to good effect. But not in ME3.

Second. The action is trivial because it was made trivial. As every action to fight the Reapers is eventually made trivial due to the notion that the Reaper's cannot be defeated. Only subverted or destroyed along with everything synthetic that does not bear the guilt of the Reapers.

I appreciate you may feel strongly about the issue. But I have no intention of discussing the topic of progressive game development with someone who seeks to take my words out of context and represent them in a form that denote's hate where none exists. I also appreciate that may not have been your intent. But since you have not clarified your thoughts I can only address what I see. And I do not 'hate', ME3. I simply see it as a lesser game to ME1 and 2 as it lack's vision and clarity of vision that ME1 and 2 delivered in spades.

[David7204]

No, it wasn't made trivial. It was trivial. Picking up missiles from planet scanning is trivial. Having such a small and insignificant action have serious effects would be immense poor writing and game design.

[mupp3tz]

I think it's a two way street. How many times in the series were we explicitly told that outright "winning" is not possible and yet ignored it as just a typical comment by the bad guys. When you think about it, all your victories are very meager compared to the scale of fighting all of the Reapers at once. There is no way to win conventionally.. even with everyone united together. The Reapers are just too strong.

I think what made the ending feel like a left turn was how the last two games ended. They reinforced that brushing off of the ominous comments and made you feel like "Nah. This time is different!" ... when, instead, the developers were really trying to tell you "This will not end well. Srsly." And after getting a beam to the face, the way they tried to address it (by adding in all that nonsense) left me thinking "Oh ****, you guys weren't kidding, huh? Was not expecting this. Do not like."

Or then again, maybe they just didn't know how to end the series and that was what they decided to go with.

Modifié par M U P P 3 T Z, 27 août 2013 - 06:31 .

[KaiserShep]

The Elcor were kind of treated as a trivial thing too, which is kind of sad. You have the Elcor diplomat tell you that no one else will heed his pleas to assist, and getting their flotilla out of the hostile system is nothing more than a planet scan, and reporting back to him.

[mupp3tz]

KaiserShep wrote...

The Elcor were kind of treated as a trivial thing too, which is kind of sad. You have the Elcor diplomat tell you that no one else will heed his pleas to assist, and getting their flotilla out of the hostile system is nothing more than a planet scan, and reporting back to him.

YES. When I got that quest, I was so excited to go rescue some Elcors.. but then it was just a planet scan. <_<

[KaiserShep]

There's a serious disconnect between what's trivial and meaningful when a lot of things of varying importance are all acquired in the same mundane way. Planet scanning yields results ranging from an individual scientist, to marine divisions, to flotillas, and dreadnoughts. These things are just there as filler to boost EMS, and if they were removed from the game, players would not feel as though anything of value is lacking.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 06:46 .

[AlanC9]

Redbelle wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Picking up a truck load of missiles from a planet' shouldn't have anything but a miniscule effect on the outcome.

Not even a cutscene to reflect the act of acquiring them and their subsequent usage? To link that act with an outcome. Like ME2 did with it's Normandy upgrade's?

This comparison is a bit odd. ME2 has three upgrade options that yield cutscenes. ME3 has dozens of scannable war assets. Surely you don't want to watch 40 or 50 cutscenes in the endgame? That'd require a fairly large transfer of resources out of the playable part of the game.

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...
There's a serious disconnect between what's trivial and meaningful when a lot of things of varying importance are all acquired in the same mundane way. Planet scanning yields results ranging from an individual scientist, to marine divisions, to flotillas, and dreadnoughts. These things are just there as filler to boost EMS, and if they were removed from the game, players would not feel as though anything of value is lacking.

Well, except that removing the scanned assets would have made most of the galaxy map completely superfluous, unless you've got something to replace those with.

I woudn't have minded that myself; the KotOR map worked just fine for me. In retrospect, I think putting exploration into ME1 was a serious mistake, though my thinking may be colored by my current replay of ME1

[AlanC9]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

The Elcor were kind of treated as a trivial thing too, which is kind of sad. You have the Elcor diplomat tell you that no one else will heed his pleas to assist, and getting their flotilla out of the hostile system is nothing more than a planet scan, and reporting back to him.

YES. When I got that quest, I was so excited to go rescue some Elcors.. but then it was just a planet scan. <_<

One of the odd things about ME3's design is that it leaves a lot of players thinking that there should have been more content in certain places. The Elcor mission leaves people feeling like a sidequest is missing rather than that they just got some points. There's a similar effect for squadmate one-liners on the Normandy; it  has lead some people to the ludicrous conclusion that squadmates have less dialogue in ME3 than they did in the previous games.

[FlamingBoy]

dreamgazer wrote...

General Slotts wrote...

Dreamy's getting fired up! I like it.

It just annoys me to see folks reducing labored, creative output to mere products. Once you start doing that, you're sure to get even shallower pieces of work.  Art vs. Product is far from a black and white dichotomy. 

Perhaps if bioware didn't monetize the crap out of their finale, then shades of grey may a bit more possible to see.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Profound impact: finding the Pillars of Strength and restoring hope to the Batarian people. Now that's high impact gaming people!

Another high impact point: The Asari sacred artifact of the Rings of Alune You gain Citadel Defense War Assets, 15000 CR, and +5 Reputation. all for a simple click of a mouse.

And you can help the Volus remember themselves with a click of a mouse! More high impact gaming!

And that Interferometeric Array that pinpoints where every single reaper in the galaxy is located! Again more high impact gaming found with a click of a mouse! .... But But This should have made the crucible pinpoint only reapers. You know, you're right, and because of that this should have been a regular mission where you land.

[Zazzerka]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Profound impact: finding the Pillars of Strength and restoring hope to the Batarian people. Now that's high impact gaming people!

I don't know why you keep mentioning that when The Banner Of The First Regiment dwarfs it so thoroughly.

[KaiserShep]

Don't talk smack about the Banner of the First Regiment. It puts steel in their spine.

[TheProtheans]

dreamgazer wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Because Casper the retarded ghost boy makes so much more sense right? It's not like the other games ended on a bad ass note, right? Oh wait they did. We don't want some lame ass art crap (and I don't classify games as art either, it's a toy, that way too many people here are afraid to admit they enjoy cause of the stigma attached to it, so games gets labelled as art) and it has shown.

Speak for yourself. 

I consider videogames to be an artform, despite being completely comfortable with the fact that I enjoy them as interactive entertainment.  And I would, in fact, prefer "art crap" over most of the alternatives I've read. 

Better, more polished art crap, of course. 

Can't say I disagree, Mass effect 3 was crap.

[Eterna]

M25105 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Because Casper the retarded ghost boy makes so much more sense right? It's not like the other games ended on a bad ass note, right? Oh wait they did. We don't want some lame ass art crap (and I don't classify games as art either, it's a toy, that way too many people here are afraid to admit they enjoy cause of the stigma attached to it, so games gets labelled as art) and it has shown.

Speak for yourself. 

I consider videogames to be an artform, despite being completely comfortable with the fact that I enjoy them as interactive entertainment.  And I would, in fact, prefer "art crap" over most of the alternatives I've read. 

Better, more polished art crap, of course. 

When over 90% of people voting on polls showed that they hated the ending, then I don't speak for myself.

Putting a 100 page lore manual next to a GI-Joe action figure doesn't make it art either, it's still a toy.

Yes a BSN poll takes into account the millions of people who played ME3, bravo.

[Redbelle]

AlanC9 wrote...

Redbelle wrote...

David7204 wrote...

'Picking up a truck load of missiles from a planet' shouldn't have anything but a miniscule effect on the outcome.

Not even a cutscene to reflect the act of acquiring them and their subsequent usage? To link that act with an outcome. Like ME2 did with it's Normandy upgrade's?

This comparison is a bit odd. ME2 has three upgrade options that yield cutscenes. ME3 has dozens of scannable war assets. Surely you don't want to watch 40 or 50 cutscenes in the endgame? That'd require a fairly large transfer of resources out of the playable part of the game.

I think a better question would be.

From the Gamer's perspective. How would they like to see War Asset's manifested in the game?

I for one do not like how my effort's are reflected in a numerical score. This is meant to be an immersive Action/Shooter/RPG. Collecting stuff and having it become number's breaks the immersion in a way ME2 did not.

In that mind set. If I get Krogan troops to help fight a war. I expect to see Krogan troop's helping to fight a war. Not standing around at attention while Wrex or Wreav give's a speech. Likewise for Rachni. The notion that these asset's will be actually used within the gameplay to affect a change in how the gameplay proceed's is the crux of how BW developed from ME1 to ME2.

ME3 is a slide backwards on that front. And not for the better. Immersion is the key and by not allowing player choices to manifest in way's that influence the gameplay in subtle ways that immersion is not so much as broken..... as never attempted in the first place.

I'd agree that there are alot of WA's to code for. But the payoff would have been far better for players. To see their action's having consequence's. The seperation of event and consequence on the level of the individual gamer is one of the most base critisism's that is leveled at the game.

And that is perhaps the crux of the issue. ME3 does not cater to the gamer who plays it. Major decision's and character's are upheld from game's past. But ME3 does not spend much, if any time, catering to ME3's gameplay. Anything earned in ME3 goes into the number's pot and does not allow those number's to come out as usable in game asset's at the player's command or benefit.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Zazzerka wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Profound impact: finding the Pillars of Strength and restoring hope to the Batarian people. Now that's high impact gaming people!

I don't know why you keep mentioning that when The Banner Of The First Regiment dwarfs it so thoroughly.

My Shepard was the Liberator of Torfan and Genocided 300,000 Batarians. So by retrieving this artifact she received absolution for all her sins against the Batarian people. That single action was so profound it moved me to tears the first time I played the game.

[Eterna]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Zazzerka wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Profound impact: finding the Pillars of Strength and restoring hope to the Batarian people. Now that's high impact gaming people!

I don't know why you keep mentioning that when The Banner Of The First Regiment dwarfs it so thoroughly.

My Shepard was the Liberator of Torfan and Genocided 300,000 Batarians. So by retrieving this artifact she received absolution for all her sins against the Batarian people. That single action was so profound it moved me to tears the first time I played the game.

You keep mocking this when you actually have no idea what happened. Nobody forgave Shepard for arrival, in fact most of the batarian populace has no idea Shepard was even responsible.  

Furthermore, you gave them artifacts so they at least had something of their culture to inspire them, not so that they would forgive you for arrival. 

Stop being a fool. 

[Bionuts]

^ You really haven't gotten enough of that, eh? Haha.

[FlamingBoy]

Eterna5 wrote...

M25105 wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

M25105 wrote...

Because Casper the retarded ghost boy makes so much more sense right? It's not like the other games ended on a bad ass note, right? Oh wait they did. We don't want some lame ass art crap (and I don't classify games as art either, it's a toy, that way too many people here are afraid to admit they enjoy cause of the stigma attached to it, so games gets labelled as art) and it has shown.

Speak for yourself. 

I consider videogames to be an artform, despite being completely comfortable with the fact that I enjoy them as interactive entertainment.  And I would, in fact, prefer "art crap" over most of the alternatives I've read. 

Better, more polished art crap, of course. 

When over 90% of people voting on polls showed that they hated the ending, then I don't speak for myself.

Putting a 100 page lore manual next to a GI-Joe action figure doesn't make it art either, it's still a toy.

Yes a BSN poll takes into account the millions of people who played ME3, bravo.

Sample method aka sampling