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How did you want ME to end?


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#76
dreamgazer

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dbollendorf wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I wanted to talk the Reapers into getting out of my galaxy.

I should know better than to do this but I can't help myself.

I just can't believe that the person that has posted nothing for or aganst the ending actually has the guts to mock someone posting an honest opinion. Even though I disliked the ending of ME3 I still enjoy talking about it and getting other peoples opinions on the subjuct so if you can't contribute to the discussion plus go back to whatever it is that you do.


Hah! Goes to show what happens when I don't read the progression of the thread. The mocking wasn't meant directly at you as a personal hit, but I do have some serious issues with yelling at the Reapers to leave because "we're special" or because Shepard's special.

I think that the idea of forcing a debate between three morally-questionable endings is far more interesting than ending the series like a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich movie, or trying to ape something like Babylon 5, or trying to logic-bomb the ancient AI. I support the end concept in itself as an ode/borrowing to Asimov, Huxley and other classic science-fiction with obscured moral decisions, and I feel like defeating the Reapers "conventionally" is an incredibly silly notion. The execution was way off, but the alternative are often worse.

(shrug)

Personally, I'd clean up the plot holes in the current ending by explaining things more rationally and obviously, switch out the Catalyst's current form for Avina (and alter some of the exposition around that idea), and throw a bone to the bleeding hearts by allowing a destroy Shepard to get up from the rubble. That'd be my ending, without overhauling the plot up until that point.

#77
EagleScoutDJB

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@dreamgazer
I thought you were just trying to cause trouble, I'm glad I was wrong.

The main reason the end of the Shadow War stands out to me as how ME3 could have ended is that right up to the point that you're forced to accept what the Catalyst tells you it felt like that's where they were going. Even being given the choice at the end fits, there just needed to be a refuse option that didn't lead to us losing. Would it have been bad if they copied Babylon 5 too closely, yes, but for me it would have been better then what we got.

I'm sure this isn't the only way to end the game that would have felt satisfying, it's just the best I can come up with.

Modifié par dbollendorf, 25 août 2013 - 10:28 .


#78
JonathonPR

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I did not want it to end but it has certainly ended.

I would if a few motivations for the Reapers had been implied but not explicitly stated. I wanted them to continue to exist but no longer be directly tied to the galaxy. I wanted the end of the trilogy to state that the future of the galaxy was entirely in the hands of those who lived there. Not the outcome of the machination of a super being or built from the designs of the past. No longer defined by what others wanted the cycle to know. The primary force of agency in the galaxy to be the races that live in the galaxy here and now. That the races should not be referred to as part of a cycle. That their accomplishments now and into the future of the setting stand on their own outside the shadows of what others desire of them.

For these reasons I must reject ME3 in its entirety and ME2 for its failure to keep or build momentum. To harm a foe with a slash is not worthy of pride. It must be the intent to cut what is desired.

Modifié par JonathonPR, 25 août 2013 - 10:28 .


#79
MegaSovereign

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dreamgazer wrote...

dbollendorf wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I wanted to talk the Reapers into getting out of my galaxy.

I should know better than to do this but I can't help myself.

I just can't believe that the person that has posted nothing for or aganst the ending actually has the guts to mock someone posting an honest opinion. Even though I disliked the ending of ME3 I still enjoy talking about it and getting other peoples opinions on the subjuct so if you can't contribute to the discussion plus go back to whatever it is that you do.


Hah! Goes to show what happens when I don't read the progression of the thread. The mocking wasn't meant directly at you as a personal hit, but I do have some serious issues with yelling at the Reapers to leave because "we're special" or because Shepard's special.

I think that the idea of forcing a debate between three morally-questionable endings is far more interesting than ending the series like a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich movie, or trying to ape something like Babylon 5, or trying to logic-bomb the ancient AI. I support the end concept in itself as an ode/borrowing to Asimov, Huxley and other classic science-fiction with obscured moral decisions, and I feel like defeating the Reapers "conventionally" is an incredibly silly notion. The execution was way off, but the alternative are often worse.

(shrug)

Personally, I'd clean up the plot holes in the current ending by explaining things more rationally and obviously, switch out the Catalyst's current form for Avina (and alter some of the exposition around that idea), and throw a bone to the bleeding hearts by allowing a destroy Shepard to get up from the rubble. That'd be my ending, without overhauling the plot up until that point.


Most of the debates have been more disappointing than the ending. Though...I understand where you are coming from. I don't think I would have been satisfied with a conventional ending model. 

It's strange how I find myself liking the endings when I watch them on youtube. I guess it's because in that format the scenes are isolated from the rest of the game. However, when I'm playing through all of Priority Earth it feels very anti-climatic. I don't like the fact that Shepard has to make philosphically fueled decisions that don't necessarily have to do with the Reaper conflict within minutes. There is a sort of "metagame" element to it that I think is immersion breaking. I feel like the Genophage arc handled it better because there was more time to make this type of choice and more opinions and perspectives to absorb.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 25 août 2013 - 10:43 .


#80
Grand Admiral Cheesecake

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Dead Reapers, that is all.

#81
frostajulie

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I wanted to win.

We can start with the epic refusal speech then make a more renegade toned one with the words Up yours included kill switch for the programs of the Reapers or infect the genetic material with some killer virus cliche don't care it still an ending where I ****ing win

I wanted a walk on the citadel with a grateful galaxy and princess leia putting a medal on my god damn Shepards neck and then smoochie woochies with the LI a final bit of dialogue with all the characters and then well you saw the citadel DLC it was a good ride cue the music roll the credits. Yaaaaaaay!

Instead I lose no matter what.

#82
MrFob

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How did I want ME3 to end?
Well, to be honest, I had no particular scenario in mind. Oh, I had some ideas and theories but nothing fleshed out to the point where I had an ending and was disappointed not to see it. I really went into ME3 with an open mind.
On top of that, I always knew there would have to be a Deus Ex Machina. The way the reapers were set up, it was just impossible to avoid. The onlz thing I did expect was that it would be something that was already hinted at in the previous games, not the out-of-the-blue crucible.

The only thing I did expect from the endings was variation. I did not expect every single variable to be taken into account (in fact, I think BW did exceed my expectations on that point to some degree throughout the game) but I did expect there to be 4-5 radically different endings, depending on a final choice, and when I say different, I mean that they reflect all the different themes that the ME trilogy dealt with.
If you read these forums, you can see that different people have very different ideas of what was important during the ME trilogy. Some would say it was sacrifice, others would say it was hope in the face of impossible odds, yet others would say it was a war story or heroism or unity of different species or evolutionary progress or whatever. I understand it is impossible to cater to everyone but I think it would have been possible to work out say 4-5 key points and address those and I think this hasn't been done by the current endings, EC or not.

BW did this very well with Dragon Age: Origins and Jade Empire. Let's take DA:O as an example, you can end it with a noble sacrifice or you can be the hero of the story who becomes king and lives happily ever after. You can also end it on a darker note, potentially having doomed the world through your deal with Morrigan. You can convert Loghain and let him redeem himself or you can cruelly force him to take the blow because you are a selfish ******. That variety was masterfully executed and allows me to play completely different characters in each playthrough, always with a fitting end to the story.
In Mass Effect 3 on the other hand, no matter which ending you choose, you always have to do it with the same mid set: You have to put trust into the explanations of your enemy and commit to an atrocious action in order to save the galaxy at great cost to yourself and others. That's it, that's what it comes down to no matter what (well, apart from the tagged on refuse option).
Of course, there are also logical and narrative fallacies aplenty in the specifics of the ending but this single mindedness of the ending to a game with such varied themes and motives is what broke its back IMO.

#83
ObserverStatus

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SpamBot2000 wrote...
With Shep completing his/her mission. Not the damn Reaper King's mission.



#84
MrDbow

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I am completely Okay with how Mass Effect 3 Ended, now; especially including it's DLC and Extended Cut. However, I maintain that my being "upset" with the ending has more to do with the fact that "IT ENDED" rather than "THE ENDING."

That being said, I really wish there was more impact to the decisions that occurred during Mass Effect 3. I would have loved to see your War Assets in Motion and working together. No Geth or Quarians to speak of.

There is one thing I wish I could have seen: The total destruction of your efforts (all hope is lost). You would see a passage of time where the Reapers slowly and methodically consume the worlds. We see, what looks, like a victory at Earth only to be drowned out by more and more reapers pouring in. And we see the stagings of Liara's plans and maybe even an Ilos style encampment (an Arc) being built for last ditch survival. This Arc would hold several hundred key members of different species. EDI would be the one to oversee the Arc (like Vigil).

#85
The Night Mammoth

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MegaSovereign wrote...

Most of the debates have been more disappointing than the ending. Though...I understand where you are coming from. I don't think I would have been satisfied with a conventional ending model. 

It's strange how I find myself liking the endings when I watch them on youtube. I guess it's because in that format the scenes are isolated from the rest of the game. However, when I'm playing through all of Priority Earth it feels very anti-climatic. I don't like the fact that Shepard has to make philosphically fueled decisions that don't necessarily have to do with the Reaper conflict within minutes. There is a sort of "metagame" element to it that I think is immersion breaking. I feel like the Genophage arc handled it better because there was more time to make this type of choice and more opinions and perspectives to absorb.

The Genophage arc is the peak of Mass Effect, to me. Pretty much every aspect of it was pulled off extremely well. It had just the right amount of build up, world building, and interesting characters, to put it as the pinnacle of the series.

It's a good thing to compare to the ending really, in terms of how to pose a question (or questions) of such a scale to the player. The ending, to me, is far too isolated and lacking in context and relatability, for me to take it seriously or appreciate it. The devs take Shepard out of the world and put them, alone, in a sort of other dimension without any sense of familiarity, with nothing but the self-confessed leader of the enemy to provide any sort of context or extra information to help make a decision. Compared to the Genophage, which is two hours of character and location driven build-up where Shepard is constantly being poked about which is the right choice.

Maybe people can argue that the whole series is the build up, but frankly, things just don't work that way. No one I knew went back and thought about what they'd done in the series so far, that would break immersion and people don't want to do that. Ideally, people should be slowly helped to make their own decision, rather than forced to pick between three nothing but bland and very basic information on what they do. They might as well have put up a screen and had people read some text, and then tick A, B or C to proceed. No context, no perspective, no relatability, not way to empathise like you can with Bakara, or intellectually challenge with Wiks, or bring out the pragmatic side with the Dalatrass. 

#86
AlanC9

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JonathonPR wrote...
I wanted the end of the trilogy to state that the future of the galaxy was entirely in the hands of those who lived there. Not the outcome of the machination of a super being or built from the designs of the past. No longer defined by what others wanted the cycle to know. The primary force of agency in the galaxy to be the races that live in the galaxy here and now. That the races should not be referred to as part of a cycle. That their accomplishments now and into the future of the setting stand on their own outside the shadows of what others desire of them.


How is any of this different from Destroy?

Modifié par AlanC9, 26 août 2013 - 12:10 .


#87
Dunmer of Redoran

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Endings:
1.a: Too low EMS: Reapers win. The Reapers win, and the cycle continues.
1.b: Too low EMS, Refuse: Reapers win, but the cycle eventually ends.
2.a: Just enough EMS: Control - The control ending, with all things wrecked.
2.b: Just enough EMS: Synthesis - The Synthesis ending, with all things wrecked.
2.c: Just enough EMS: Destroy - The destroy ending, all things are wrecked and Shepard dies.
3.a: Plenty of EMS: Control - Like the normal control ending, with things repaired.
3.b: Plenty of EMS: Synthesis - Like the normal synthesis ending, with things repaired.
3.c: Plenty of EMS: Destroy - Like the normal destroy ending, with things repaired and Shepard dying.

4.a: Max EMS: Control, Paragon - Like the normal control/repair ending, except Shepard now rules the Reapers and is recognized as doing such. He chooses to be benevolent and rule for the good of the galaxy.
4.b: Max EMS: Control, Renegade - Like the normal control/repair ending, except Shepard rules the Reapers and will make the galaxy tremble beneath him. He is known for his power, and his destructiveness.
4.c: Max EMS: Synthesis, Paragon - Shepard activates Synthesis, and the galaxy is transformed. The Reapers, inspired by Shepard's goodness and sacrifice, rule benevolently to protect the galaxy from all conflict.
4.d: Max EMS: Synthesis, Renegade - Shepard activates Synthesis and the galaxy is transformed. The Reapers conscientiously seek out and destroy all traces of non-synthetic life as it appears throughout the galaxy, continuing the cycles with the hybrid races as their favored peoples.
4.e: Max EMS: Destroy, Renegade - Shepard destroys the Reapers, and survives. He is found in the wreckage by his team, and hailed as the hero of humanity and all races, champion of organic life and the destroyer of the Reapers. His merciless vigilance is hailed so much that he becomes a demigod in his own lifetime. Close friends/LI will be around him in the ending as he has ceremonies held in his honor to exalt his incredible status.
4.f: Max EMS: Destroy, Paragon - Shepard destroys the Reapers and survives, getting discovered by his team in the wreckage. He gets hailed as the hero of humanity and all races, champion of organic life and defender against the Reapers. Massive celebrations are held and Shepard is given incredible honors, has a dramatic reunion with LI/friends, and lives out the rest of his days with them overseeing the repair of everything in the galaxy. Happy celebration, etc. takes place.


4e and 4f receive extra content allowing for Shepard to interact with his team following the game's conclusion. Also, dance party credits for the lulz.

#88
sH0tgUn jUliA

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dreamgazer wrote...

dbollendorf wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

I wanted to talk the Reapers into getting out of my galaxy.

I should know better than to do this but I can't help myself.

I just can't believe that the person that has posted nothing for or aganst the ending actually has the guts to mock someone posting an honest opinion. Even though I disliked the ending of ME3 I still enjoy talking about it and getting other peoples opinions on the subjuct so if you can't contribute to the discussion plus go back to whatever it is that you do.


Hah! Goes to show what happens when I don't read the progression of the thread. The mocking wasn't meant directly at you as a personal hit, but I do have some serious issues with yelling at the Reapers to leave because "we're special" or because Shepard's special.

I think that the idea of forcing a debate between three morally-questionable endings is far more interesting than ending the series like a Michael Bay or Roland Emmerich movie, or trying to ape something like Babylon 5, or trying to logic-bomb the ancient AI. I support the end concept in itself as an ode/borrowing to Asimov, Huxley and other classic science-fiction with obscured moral decisions, and I feel like defeating the Reapers "conventionally" is an incredibly silly notion. The execution was way off, but the alternative are often worse.

(shrug)

Personally, I'd clean up the plot holes in the current ending by explaining things more rationally and obviously, switch out the Catalyst's current form for Avina (and alter some of the exposition around that idea), and throw a bone to the bleeding hearts by allowing a destroy Shepard to get up from the rubble. That'd be my ending, without overhauling the plot up until that point.


This still lacks heroism.

#89
FlamingBoy

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Br3ad wrote...

jimr9999us wrote...

0/2 so far.

What does this mean? 


its called being a dick.

#90
dreamgazer

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sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

This still lacks heroism.


I don't have a problem with an ending that lacks conventional heroism.

#91
Leonardo the Magnificent

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I wrote this up earlier today. Word of warning, IT'S REALLY LONG.


I wouldn't change too much, really. Just tweak the Reapers' motives so it's more in-line with previous lore.
Oh, and Priority: Earth, if that's on the table.

P:E Opens with Shepard discussing preliminary tactics, the initial push to Earth, etc. Here, the player can draft up a basic strategy for the assault on Earth by assigning roles to their Fleet Assets. Will the Turian fleets lead the charge or will the humans? Or a mix of complementary fleets? Will the Reapers be engaged head-on so as to draw them away from the planetary invaders or will you focus on more precise and targeted strikes to take more of them out? Or split your fleets and do both? These decisions will affect how many troops make it to Earth and how the fleets fare later in the battle. The real work here would be the cinematic factor. Planning out the variables themselves isn't too difficult, but representing them, especially since there are several, several possible combinations, would be taxing.

Next, planetside tactics. Now it's a case of who goes where, and the level isn't even completely linear. I would likely split this mission into three segments, with unit assignments/reassignments at the end of each segment. Segment one focuses on taking down the Hades Cannon, which is in the middle of hotly contested territory. Here, Shepard has two options: he can either attack the cannon himself or create a diversion by destroying a harvesting facility while the main team attacks the cannon. For both scenarios, he has to assign a strike team war asset, and for the mission he doesn't choose, a squad member must lead the other team. If Shepard chooses his assets poorly, a squad member will die. For instance, sending the wrong team to the harvesting facility will result in the team either falling back in the face of heavy losses (which means the bulk of hostiles will now be focused on the cannon), resulting in a squad-member dying at the cannon, or the team can push on and a squadmate is killed in the facility. If the wrong team is sent to the cannon, the squadmate leading that team dies regardless, as the cannon must be destroyed. Send two wrong teams and you lose two squadmates, one at the facility and one at the cannon, or both at the cannon. If you only have one squadmate at the end of this segment, you will recieve a replacement in the form of Anderson for the next segment.

Once the Hades Cannon has been dealt with, the rest of the ground force is shipped in. Their strength depends on the actions of the fleet. If a strong fleet fights the Reapers head on, the assets will arrive relatively unharmed, though the fleet will take a 10% effectiveness hit. If a strong fleet engages more tactically, the arriving assets will take a 10% effectiveness hit. If you split the fleets, both fleet and infantry assets will take a 5% effectiveness hit. The amount of effectiveness lost increases the weaker your fleets are.

Now for the second stage of fleet maneuvers. Shepard can either order the fleets to press the assault and "clear the skies," or he can order the fleets to initiate a tactical retreat. The former would mean that ground units have an easier time of it at the cost of ships, while the latter gives the fleet a breather at the expense of soldiers.

I'm not exactly sure what I want to do with the FOB, so let's not touch that. Instead, we'll move onto the next tactical menu, the distribution of ground forces. It's time to rush the beam, and there are three ways to get there: a direct approach with heavy infantry and artillery (vanilla), a detour through less contested territory with strike teams and support, and a surgical push through occupied territory with spec-ops/commandos. Then, you choose which path to take, each with different objectives. For path one, it's similar to vanilla: take down the guardian Destroyer. Path two: establish a beachhead flanking the beam and prepare for the charge. Path three: eliminate high-priority targets and commit other acts of sabotage on the way to the beam. The difficulty of the three paths depends on what assets you assign. For example, accompanying Blue Suns on path two results in a more difficult run than accompanying marines, while a Spectre unit proves more effective than a Justiciar contingent on path three. Secondly, if you accompany assets with unique commanders, like Arlakh company, you will fight alongside said commanders, like Grunt. Ultimately, the effectiveness of your assigned assets determines how prepared you are for the beam rush. Assets not chosen remain at the FOB to hold the line. If they prove too weak, you will be flanked and may lose one of your assets.

Now for the final segment: the Crucible and Citadel. You've geared up for the beam rush and have amassed your armies around no-man's land. But suddenly, a group of Reaper's have broken off from the fleet and have begun heading for you! If you commanded the fleets to go on the offensive, the majority of this invasion force will be destroyed, provided your fleets have remained strong. If you commanded them to fall back, only some will be destroyed and the beam rush will be that much more desperate. Nevertheless, the charge has begun and you're running down one of the paths to the trench. Harbinger descends and opens fire, making a general mess of things. Depending on the strength of your assets, you will either make it to the beam with one, two or no squadmates. You might not even make it at all, going out in a blaze of glory. In that case, you'll be treated to a series of cutscenes depicting the defeat of what few combatants are left. The outcome of the charge is determined by how many Reapers make it to beam, as well as the strength of your infantry assets. Lone Reaper and medium assets means you're A-Okay, as does some Reapers and strong assets, and several Reapers and very strong assets.

You make it aboard the Citadel, and find yourself in a processing chamber. Another Human Reaper is under construction. You search for a way out of the chamber, ultimately finding yourself in a deconstructed presidium. A glance at the fleet battle shows that despite your best efforts, the fleets are ultimately losing and have called in the Crucible. What strength they have left determines its integrity. You head for the tower and the control panel within, possibly encountering pockets of resistance along the way (depending on your Citadel assets). Those pockets will join you in your push, and important characters may open up alternate passages along the way. When you finally make it to the tower with whatever force you've assembled, you encounter Anderson, who followed you up with his own battle-hardened team (Unless it's a worst-case-scenario playthrough in which Anderson is a squadmate). Once in the tower, you encounter TIM, standing over the control panel. As soon as you begin to approach him, he mutters something along the lines of "You're too late, Shepard," and ascends in a column of light (or on a hidden elevator). You call for evac for your squads and your resistance forces, and you and Anderson head on to confront TIM. Who makes it off safely is determined by the strength of your remaining Citadel Assets and Fleet Strength, with Fleet Strength being the most important for actually getting people off the station.

For the confrontation. I'd actually leave most of this alone, or would prefer to let someone else handle it.

Which brings us to the finale. Anderson has died and Shepard has ascended to the Catalyst's chamber. He is awoken by a pillar of light, or an orb of light. Whichever. The construct awakens him and marvels at the fact that such imperfect beings have managed to essentially defeat the Reapers. Now, instead of speaking about how the Reapers are his solution to the chaos (we'd have to tweak Levi a bit for this to work), it'd explain how the Reapers are the ultimate form of life and that, rather than exterminating races, the Reapers were ascending them to Reaper godhood. It turns out that the Reapers were intially born of an attempt to attain an effective synthetic immorality by merging the minds of an entire species into one ever-lasting form. The process failed, and the Reapers were born. Thus, the cycles. But now that they face defeat, it has become apparent that they are not the perfect beings they considered themselves, and so the Catalyst, their combined consciousness, can do nothing but allow Shepard to decide their fate via the Crucible.

And so, Shepard is presented with two options: he can assume control of the Reapers and do what he pleases with them, or he can purge them from the galaxy. Your Crucible and Fleet Assets will determine what the Crucible is ultimately capable of, as will your collector base decision. Interestingly enough, the base decision has a somewhat opposite effect on the Crucible choices. Saving the base allows the Crucible to precisely target Reaper AI, sparing the Geth and EDI, but now it doesn't have the sheer power to utterly rewrite their AI, instead allowing Shep only to reprogram them. Conversely, destroying the base gives Shep the juice to overwrite the Catalyst and take full control over the Reapers, but the overcharged Crucible completely wipes anything running on Reaper AI. Regardless, the relays are destroyed in the beam dispersion. A damaged crucible would become exceedingly less effective, either stunning the Reapers only temporarily, or causing ever-greater collateral damage. It might not work at all.

And, then cue epilogue. Not sure how I'd handle this either.

#92
Secretlyapotato

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Shep saves the world and has babies with Kaiden and lives happily ever after until she dies from being old

#93
Iakus

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dreamgazer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

This still lacks heroism.


I don't have a problem with an ending that lacks conventional heroism.


Other people do.

And the trilogy has allowed for conventional heroism right up until Starbrat shows up.

#94
dreamgazer

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iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

This still lacks heroism.


I don't have a problem with an ending that lacks conventional heroism.


Other people do.

And the trilogy has allowed for conventional heroism right up until Starbrat shows up.


I'm aware that they do.  Other people don't.

The series has also featured several situations with unavoidable death, no matter what you decide, as well as allowing for "end justifies the means" options. 

#95
Mr.House

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Well written.

#96
Mr.House

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iakus wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

This still lacks heroism.


I don't have a problem with an ending that lacks conventional heroism.


Other people do.

And the trilogy has allowed for conventional heroism right up until Starbrat shows up.

And some of those options did alot of damage to the quality of the story.

#97
Leonardo the Magnificent

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Mr.House wrote...

Well written.


Thank you?

I assume you were referring to me, right?

Modifié par Leonardo the Magnificent, 26 août 2013 - 01:18 .


#98
CaIIisto

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Being able to drop-kick Starjar would have been a start......

#99
Mr.House

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Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Well written.


Thank you?

I assume you were referring to me, right?

No?

#100
Leonardo the Magnificent

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Mr.House wrote...

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Mr.House wrote...

Well written.


Thank you?

I assume you were referring to me, right?

No?


Oh. Well, this is embarassing.