260 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolfva2]

Sheesh folks; BW didn't set out to make a bad ending. I swear but some of ya'll rant and rage as if you honestly believe that down in the deep dank dark dungeons of BW HQ a secret and mysterious cabal of upper management types met, donned their black robes, sacrificed a couple of babies to Moloch, god of fire, maybe tore out the heart of a virgin or two, then settled down to business.
"Muahahhaha evil managers! We are gathered today to figure out how best to screw our customers over! Their hate will fuel our company for eons, and we shall consume their very SOOOoooooOOOUUUUUULSSSSSS!!! On today's agenda, the end. Should we really screw it up?"
<cue nods of assent from the gathered dark lords>

Look. They made an ending they thought was good. Were they wrong? NO. They were not, because SOME people actually liked the end. However, a LOT of people DIDN'T like it. Enough that I'm sure they've probably learned that introducing a major character at the end and twisting the concepts of the trilogy on it's head was a horribly poor idea and won't do it again. If they do? Well, they'll lose more customers, and maybe Ubi soft or Bethesda will steal all their customers.

But I doubt seriously that they made the ending with the intent of hurting ya'lls widdle feewings. Acting so butt hurt for this long is rediculous. (disclaimer: That comment is ONLY aimed at people who are butt hurt. If you are not, IT IS NOT AIMED AT YOU. Please don't whine about how wrong I am about you, because I'm not talking about you. D'uh. If you ARE still butt hurt over the ending...grow up and stop being such a whiney wuss over a FREAKING GAME.)

[Dieb]

All this discussion about "sense" and poor writing is increasingly ridiculous.

It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

[FlamingBoy]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Sheesh folks; BW didn't set out to make a bad ending. I swear but some of ya'll rant and rage as if you honestly believe that down in the deep dank dark dungeons of BW HQ a secret and mysterious cabal of upper management types met, donned their black robes, sacrificed a couple of babies to Moloch, god of fire, maybe tore out the heart of a virgin or two, then settled down to business.
"Muahahhaha evil managers! We are gathered today to figure out how best to screw our customers over! Their hate will fuel our company for eons, and we shall consume their very SOOOoooooOOOUUUUUULSSSSSS!!! On today's agenda, the end. Should we really screw it up?"
<cue nods of assent from the gathered dark lords>

Look. They made an ending they thought was good. Were they wrong? NO. They were not, because SOME people actually liked the end. However, a LOT of people DIDN'T like it. Enough that I'm sure they've probably learned that introducing a major character at the end and twisting the concepts of the trilogy on it's head was a horribly poor idea and won't do it again. If they do? Well, they'll lose more customers, and maybe Ubi soft or Bethesda will steal all their customers.

But I doubt seriously that they made the ending with the intent of hurting ya'lls widdle feewings. Acting so butt hurt for this long is rediculous. (disclaimer: That comment is ONLY aimed at people who are butt hurt. If you are not, IT IS NOT AIMED AT YOU. Please don't whine about how wrong I am about you, because I'm not talking about you. D'uh. If you ARE still butt hurt over the ending...grow up and stop being such a whiney wuss over a FREAKING GAME.)

You put way to much thought into that metaphor...

Also perhaps losing the condensending tone which phrases such as "ya'lls widdle feewings" you argument might have a leg to stand on.

[FlamingBoy]

Baelrahn wrote...

All this discussion about "sense" and poor writing is increasingly ridiculous.

It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

you cannot guarantee what you don't know

[Dieb]

FlamingBoy wrote...
you cannot guarantee what you don't know

Granted: You are absolutely correct.

I admit it was me giving into my little "rant" and made me a welcome target to whoever had already activated the hypocrite ammo power. On the other hand, after all the rude things people say about individual developers' presumed "intentions", this is the thing you call me out on?

Just once more, whenever I criticise the criticism, it's about the "human" aspect, not the content people happen to just strongly dislike. It's just those discussion pretty much always include claims of developers intentionally doing bad things to their customers, and that is just downright rude and highly unlikely at that - to stay true to a justifiable choice of words.

[Reorte]

Baelrahn wrote...

All this discussion about "sense" and poor writing is increasingly ridiculous.

It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

No, people would have a problem with it because it would still be bad writing, it just wouldn't leave them feeling bad too.

[Reorte]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Look. They made an ending they thought was good. Were they wrong? NO. They were not, because SOME people actually liked the end. However, a LOT of people DIDN'T like it.

Sorry, that doesn't work. There's probably no piece of writing anywhere that isn't liked by someone. It doesn't require 100% approval to be good or 100% dislike to be bad. If they weren't wrong they were right and the ending was good. By your argument that's not true either because obviously not everyone liked it. Can't have both.

[KaiserShep]

Reorte wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...

All this discussion about "sense" and poor writing is increasingly ridiculous.

It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

No, people would have a problem with it because it would still be bad writing, it just wouldn't leave them feeling bad too.

I imagine that if the ending left more people emotionally satisfied, many would probably be more willing to overlook the mishaps in the writing. Look at Mass Effect 2. It has some rather sloppy bits here and there that don't hold up to scrutiny, but the game satisfied a lot of people to the point where it didn't really matter. Sure, there's always going to be some who have a problem with something, or maybe everything, out of it (and some have even stated their opinion that ME2 is the WORST of the trilogy), but whether or not people feel good about the ending tends to supercede writing snafus.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 26 août 2013 - 10:28 .

[Dieb]

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine that if the ending left more people emotionally satisfied, many would probably be more willing to overlook the mishaps in the writing. Look at Mass Effect 2. It has some rather sloppy bits here and there that don't hold up to scrutiny, but the game satisfied a lot of people to the point where it didn't really matter. Sure, there's always going to be some who have a problem with something, or maybe everything, out of it (and some have even stated their opinion that ME2 is the WORST of the trilogy), but whether or not people feel good about the ending tends to supercede writing snafus.

See, I give into annoyance once, and all my dubious eloquence takes a hike alongside my good manners. Let's just all imagine I really wrote this.

[Reorte]

KaiserShep wrote...

I imagine that if the ending left more people emotionally satisfied, many would probably be more willing to overlook the mishaps in the writing. Look at Mass Effect 2. It has some rather sloppy bits here and there that don't hold up to scrutiny, but the game satisfied a lot of people to the point where it didn't really matter. Sure, there's always going to be some who have a problem with something, or maybe everything, out of it (and some have even stated their opinion that ME2 is the WORST of the trilogy), but whether or not people feel good about the ending tends to supercede writing snafus.

Agreed, although the best stories have both. It works the other way too (although I rather suspect to a lesser extent) - something very well written can still be accepted if it doesn't quite manage the emotional satisfaction. Unfortunately without either there's nothing much to fall back on. Yes, I noticed flaws in ME2 but by and large I was enjoying myself so they didn't bother me as much, the same way as I don't get so annoyed by certain things in reality if I'm in an otherwise good mood.

When people don't like something they'll either just chuck it out altogether or dig out all the flaws. The former happens if there's nothing much you like. A game that's simply bad from start to finish probably doesn't upset anyone even if it annoys them. To upset people you have to give them something then take it away or spoil it. And if you're happy with something there's no urge to point out the mistakes; rather people are more likely to want to ignore or deny them to avoid spoiling their fun. How good or bad doing that is is probably a whole can of worms to discuss.

[FlamingBoy]

Baelrahn wrote...

FlamingBoy wrote...
you cannot guarantee what you don't know

Granted: You are absolutely correct.

I admit it was me giving into my little "rant" and made me a welcome target to whoever had already activated the hypocrite ammo power. On the other hand, after all the rude things people say about individual developers' presumed "intentions", this is the thing you call me out on?

Just once more, whenever I criticise the criticism, it's about the "human" aspect, not the content people happen to just strongly dislike. It's just those discussion pretty much always include claims of developers intentionally doing bad things to their customers, and that is just downright rude and highly unlikely at that - to stay true to a justifiable choice of words.

Yes, I will call you out on it.
If you can guarentee that I would be behave in a way that is hypocritical of the way I am behaving now, simply because of an assumption that somehow I really wanted a "grey ending". Such implication is about the fanbase picking a fight only because they want one. I will fight this attempt to generalize myself or any other person with out significant evidence (which is impossible) to the contrary.

The developers put the work out there they assume all responsbility, and they reap all the benefits of their work. There is a catch they also recieve the full anguish of their failures. Thats the difference between criticising fans and developers.

[KevTheGamer]

A year and a half later and people are still ****ing about the ending? SMH

[jstme]

Baelrahn wrote...
Granted: You are absolutely correct.
I admit it was me giving into my little "rant" and made me a welcome target to whoever had already activated the hypocrite ammo power. On the other hand, after all the rude things people say about individual developers' presumed "intentions", this is the thing you call me out on?
Just once more, whenever I criticise the criticism, it's about the "human" aspect, not the content people happen to just strongly dislike. It's just those discussion pretty much always include claims of developers intentionally doing bad things to their customers, and that is just downright rude and highly unlikely at that - to stay true to a justifiable choice of words.

Since developers intentionally went for "speculations from everyone" angle, Human aspect of various speculations is entirely the above mentioned developers fault. 

[Dieb]

FlamingBoy wrote...
Yes, I will call you out on it.
If you can guarentee that I would be behave in a way that is hypocritical of the way I am behaving now, simply because of an assumption that somehow I really wanted a "grey ending". Such implication is about the fanbase picking a fight only because they want one. I will fight this attempt to generalize myself or any other person with out significant evidence (which is impossible) to the contrary.

The developers put the work out there they assume all responsbility, and they reap all the benefits of their work. There is a catch they also recieve the full anguish of their failures. Thats the difference between criticising fans and developers.

Are you explaining the impossibility of accusing you of being hypocritical, by simply proclaiming the developers' work being an utter "failure" just like that?


edit: Also, let's just agree to disagree here, because I realized we're hijacking this thread for a classic quote-pyramid-dialogue-argument.

Modifié par Baelrahn, 26 août 2013 - 12:21 .

[Linkenski]

Robosexual wrote...

If there's one thing video game companies learned from all this, it's innovation and storytelling comes second because people only care about their fake romances and having their hand held to a bland happy ending, even in series where such an ending would be highly contrived.

The majority of ME3 ending haters are probably the ones saying "I wanted my romance ending" and so on. I think if Bioware actually reads through a lot of the constructive critisism they can find, they might have actually realised why their ending sucked, and that it had not just to do with lack of closure.

The ending is a mess for various reasons, because it raises many more questions than it answers and most of those questions are not reflectively formed, but natural "WTF was this about?" kind of questions. The ending is as ham-fisted as an ending can get, and people comparing it to The Matrix and Deux Ex hopefully realise that ME3's ending was try-hard but nowhere near the narrative quality the other said stories.

The ending is just objectively bad. You can still think it's good by using your opinion but it IS objectively bad in terms of narrative.

[JonathonPR]

Mass Effect 3 was not innovative or a step forward in storytelling in videogames. I have already stated my stance on the quality of writing for the game. It was a game that tried to play it safe and was unwilling to take chances.

The end was part of a larger trend that has been growing in the last few Bioware games. It shifted from side stories and progressive sections to episodic stories in a larger story and finally a bundle of short stories that have no need for the others in the group and are only given connection to justify bundling them up. The ending is its own separate game that was completed later with dlc. The three Mass Effect games are each stand alone games. Each one is a separate setting. Bioware does not do stories larger than a single game. Now they don't even get the core of a game done before they go on tangents. it gets distorted to accommodate everything else.


What Bioware would give you for a camping trip.
http://www.slipperyb...y-collector.jpg

Modifié par JonathonPR, 26 août 2013 - 01:56 .

[Dubozz]

I agree with OP. ME3 ending was one of the most awful and badly written endings i ever experienced in video games. It was very disappointing to see how in the moment of its greatest triumph game just betrays everything ME is and literally says "**** you" to the player. I hope next time ending at least will be peer reviewed.

[Killdren88]

Dubozz wrote...

I hope next time ending at least will be peer reviewed.

By more people besides Hudson and Walters anyway. I'm convinced that if the others writers got a say we would have gotten something different

[Jadebaby]

And BioWare thanks you for your publicity with this thread.

The only comment I have left to make about this topic is ,"what endings?" All I say was one and it was completely forgettable.

[elrofrost]

Let it go.I mean lore wise the endings are ridiculous. But it is an end. What I do, is consider the Citadel DLC the ending. I play that last. When Shepard says "... the best" that's the end.

And even after 3 play-thoughs of the whole series I still get sad when I here "... the best". That alone tells me no matter how ****ed the endings are, this series is still great.

[In Exile]

Baelrahn wrote...
It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

Like how we pushed a magic button to kill everything on the Collector base and left high-fiving and showing the middle figers to the reapers? 

Mass Effect isn't deep social commentary on the nature of humanity, and the ending doesn't even comment on the right themes that the game was dealing with up to that point. As a "dark" and "gritty" ending, it's bad. As a trimphant B movie ending, it's bad. 

[Iakus]

Wolfva2 wrote...
But I doubt seriously that they made the ending with the intent of hurting ya'lls widdle feewings. Acting so butt hurt for this long is rediculous. (disclaimer: That comment is ONLY aimed at people who are butt hurt. If you are not, IT IS NOT AIMED AT YOU. Please don't whine about how wrong I am about you, because I'm not talking about you. D'uh. If you ARE still butt hurt over the ending...grow up and stop being such a whiney wuss over a FREAKING GAME.)

Trollish pretension aside, you give the writers far more credit than I do.

The choices and outcomes of the endings strike me as written by someone who's sick of the series and is trying to burn their bridges so there can be no follow-up games.

And forcing Shepard to die in virtually every outcome tells me they really didn't give a frak what the audience thought. I mean seriously, that alone would cause a major backlash in a series supposedly about "choice" and "agency"  This isn't Bioshock, after all.

Joke's on them, I guess, what with a new Mass Effect project in the works.  But now they have to deal with what they did to the series and all the fans they p*ssed off on top of it.

[CaIIisto]

iakus wrote...
Joke's on them, I guess, what with a new Mass Effect project in the works.  But now they have to deal with what they did to the series and all the fans they p*ssed off on top of it.

The majority of fans never even made it as far as the end of the game.

Perhaps BW should take a leaf out of Respawn's book and dispense with SP altogether. Concentrate on MP which was the one aspect of ME3 that seems to get decent praise in its own right.

[AlanC9]

JonathonPR wrote...
The end was part of a larger trend that has been growing in the last few Bioware games. It shifted from side stories and progressive sections to episodic stories in a larger story and finally a bundle of short stories that have no need for the others in the group and are only given connection to justify bundling them up. The ending is its own separate game that was completed later with dlc. The three Mass Effect games are each stand alone games. Each one is a separate setting. Bioware does not do stories larger than a single game. Now they don't even get the core of a game done before they go on tangents. it gets distorted to accommodate everything else.

I don't see how this is any different from what Bio has always done. BG1 and BG2 were a collection of unrelated quests hung on a pretty skimpy main plot skeleton too. 

[AlanC9]

In Exile wrote...

Baelrahn wrote...
It's just I can't help but think, if the Crucible just were a button to push to instantly remove the Reapers from the galaxy with no strings attached, and Shepard watched the sunset with his crew and LI, noone would have had a problem with it. Or discuss the writing's quality --or more importantly, of the trilogy as a whole-- nearly as ruthlessly as it is done still until now. I'd even guarantee you, the harshest criticism would be people saying they wished for a more controversial, "gray" ending.

Like how we pushed a magic button to kill everything on the Collector base and left high-fiving and showing the middle figers to the reapers? 

Mass Effect isn't deep social commentary on the nature of humanity, and the ending doesn't even comment on the right themes that the game was dealing with up to that point. As a "dark" and "gritty" ending, it's bad. As a trimphant B movie ending, it's bad. 

You're agreeing with Baelrahn here, right? No hard choices, no attempted depth, no problem?