260 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

I really should just document all my thoughts on ME3 at some point and link reference instead of repeating myself whenever someone brings up the topic...which would actually be just another way of repeating myself. Drats!

[Gabbenator8787]

Benchpress610 wrote...

Wolfva2 wrote...
crap, crap, crap
..............................................................................................
.......... Well, they'll lose more customers, and maybe Ubi soft or Bethesda will steal all their customers. .............................
boo hoo, boo hoo

Well you know what buddy?...they have already lost a lot of customers. Over the past six months I have enjoyed the hell out of the Far Cry series (the ending of the second one notwithstanding) and I have replayed Deus Ex HR five times.

Mass Effect used to be the game I always came back to ,,,but not anymore.

Well said. Why play this when theres definitely better games on the market? Honestly as a harcore RPGer, it truly boggles the mind that there are people out there who are willing to endure a linear final mission, an extremely tedious trench run and psuedo-philosophical dribble from from casper the genocidal ghost for 20 straight times in a row. 

And yes for the matter I do prefer Bethesda over Bioware. They are far from a great company, but at least you get more bang for your buck with DLC content, and endings that are a million times less disapointing  

Modifié par Gabbenator8787, 27 août 2013 - 08:28 .

[AlanC9]

Gabbenator8787 wrote...


Well said. Why play this when theres definitely better games on the market? Honestly as a harcore RPGer, it truly boggles the mind that there are people out there who are willing to endure a linear final mission, an extremely tedious trench run and psuedo-philosophical dribble from from caper the genocidal ghost for 20 straight times in a row. 

The "I am a hardcore RPGer " card? Really?

[Clayless]

Jadebaby wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

It's honestly completely and utterly bizarre that you think your opinion is, in any way whatsoever, objective.

It's not.

Seriously, your opinion isn't objective, you're completely deluding yourself if you think otherwise.

the same goes to you in your opinion about what game companies have or have not learnt. Going straight for the "I didn't get my happy ending" excuse instead of actually addressing the fundamental flaws in the endings narrative juxtaposed with that if the rest of the game.

pull your head out of your ass. You disgust me.

Could you point me to the part where I said my opinion was objective? Otherwise "The same goes to you" makes about as much sense as fluff rabbit donkey paint.

You could also bring up some of these fundametal flaws too, but spoiler alert you wont.

You could also explain your last sentence too me too. What's the point in it?

[KaiserShep]

Robosexual wrote...

If there's one thing video game companies learned from all this, it's innovation and storytelling comes second because people only care about their fake romances and having their hand held to a bland happy ending, even in series where such an ending would be highly contrived.

I don't see the point of expressing this kind of willful ignorance. Not having a happy ending is not what makes people necessarily dislike a story's conclusion. Some have even expressed their hostility toward the concept. What tends to make or break an ending is how fitting it is to the narrative. People keep throwing out these descriptors like "bland" and the annoyingly popular word "contrived", but I think that maybe their anemic imaginations are driving them to basically lambaste anything that simply isn't complicated, regardless of whether or not the complications make sense within the framework of the story. They construct this "boring" ending in their minds and then project it as something that critics actually want. Look at The Walking Dead as an example of an ending that fits its narrative, but is not what I would refer to as happy. Despite this, it's still arguably a satisfying way to end the story.

I must point out the ridiculousness of tossing out words like contrived to describe their idea of a happy ending to a space opera story that is marked by two happy endings in previous chapters.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 07:13 .

[AlanC9]

KaiserShep wrote...


I don't see the point of expressing this kind of willful ignorance. Not having a happy ending is not what makes people necessarily dislike a story's conclusion. Some have even expressed their hostility toward the concept. What tends to make or break an ending is how fitting it is to the narrative. 

This argument would be a bit more convincing if  the proposed alternatives to the existing ending didn't result in happier endings. But most of the time the proposed alternative is happier. And if happier includes making the ending less morally ambiguous, it's almost 100% of the time.

[KaiserShep]

The irony is that the extended cut went to great lengths to add on as much happiness as it could to each choice, of course without making significant changes to the original endings. Allies survive (in high EMS anyway), certain parts are retcon'd away, and you get long monologues in each passing this wave of positivity over everything to tie it all up, and for those with LI's, get this sudden burst of clairvoyance to convey to the player that Shepard survives. The fandom is always going to lean more toward happy endings for these sorts of stories, but wanting a happy ending does not preclude their satisfaction from a morally ambiguous ending if it's well written and engaging.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 07:37 .

[AlanC9]

Indeed. But from what I can see that was only bringing the perceived happiness levels up to where Bio had always intended them to be. (Some of Bio, anyway. I'm not certain the writing staff actually had a unified vision there.) Most of the bad stuff that was ruled out was stuff Bio never wanted ruled in.

[Bionuts]

If it had a happy ending not too many people would be complaining. The ending was bad in itself, but still...

[Mcfly616]

I don't really think the ending slides or ending monologues are an attempt to increase the "happiness" level.


I'm pretty sure one of the major complaints of the original endings was that we didn't know what impact our final choice had on the galaxy (we made our choice, each one being identical other than the color of the fireworks, Normandy crashed and the credits rolled). The EC monologues and slides simply show the aftermath/impact of our decision.

It's not necessarily bringing up the happiness level if my slides show decaying Krogan corpses or the wasteland that Rannoch has become.

[KaiserShep]

Well that kind of comes with the territory when you have a story that varies based on choice. You can choose to have more dire fates for your allies, or you can save most or all of them. I'm basing this off of the optimal outcome of each choice, wherein all allies are accounted for by the story's conclusion, rather than having some of them wiped out before the final act.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 07:49 .

[Clayless]

KaiserShep wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

If there's one thing video game companies learned from all this, it's innovation and storytelling comes second because people only care about their fake romances and having their hand held to a bland happy ending, even in series where such an ending would be highly contrived.

I don't see the point of expressing this kind of willful ignorance. Not having a happy ending is not what makes people necessarily dislike a story's conclusion. Some have even expressed their hostility toward the concept. What tends to make or break an ending is how fitting it is to the narrative. People keep throwing out these descriptors like "bland" and the annoyingly popular word "contrived", but I think that maybe their anemic imaginations are driving them to basically lambaste anything that simply isn't complicated, regardless of whether or not the complications make sense within the framework of the story. They construct this "boring" ending in their minds and then project it as something that critics actually want. Look at The Walking Dead as an example of an ending that fits its narrative, but is not what I would refer to as happy. Despite this, it's still arguably a satisfying way to end the story.

I must point out the ridiculousness of tossing out words like contrived to describe their idea of a happy ending to a space opera story that is marked by two happy endings in previous chapters.

Very few people present alternative endings. Those incredibly rare few that do usually present less choice or happier versions where Shepard can go off and live with their romance, most likely both. You say it's ignorance, but it's clearly expressed time and time again by people that hate the ending. How much MEHEM posts and signatures do you see? All that is is less choice, in a series about making difficult choices, and a happy end. It shows that, despite choice being a massive aspect of the series, people care less about it than running off with their romance.

It also is contrived to make a random happy ending in a game about defeating invincible space gods. Having everything turn out hunky dory is the definition of contrived, and it's frankly bizarre that people expected Shepard to survive and live a happy life when the enemy he was trying to stop was universe bendingly powerful. A happy ending with these odds really is the definition of contrived.

[KaiserShep]

So then would you agree that the current ending is "contrived"? Because hunky-dory is pretty much how it turns out in every choice in high EMS, not to mention people's expectations of Shepard's survival actually being fulfilled in one of them, all thanks to the very convenient Crucible device.

Success against unfavorable odds does not determine whether or not a conclusion is a contrivance in and of itself.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 10:36 .

[Mcfly616]

You can get the High EMS endings whilst having Tali commit suicide, shooting the VS, betraying Mordin and Wrex, seeing Miranda get killed, blasting Filare after Samara commits suicide.....all before the final act of the game.



Still not seeing how you consider the High EMS endings to be 100% "happy-go-lucky". There are variables that interchange. Sure....a happy-go-lucky ending is possible in my subjective opinion. But I wouldn't necessarily consider any ending that's High EMS to be totally "Happy" by default.

[Clayless]

KaiserShep wrote...

So then would you agree that the current ending is "contrived"? Because honky dory is pretty much how it turns out in every choice in high EMS, not to mention people's expectations of Shepard's survival actually being fulfilled in one of them.

Success against unfavorable odds does not determine whether or not a conclusion is a contrivance in and of itself.

Shepard dies in the end, and hunky dory is how it turns out in the current endings? That must explain why people like refering to it as galactic rape or genocide.

The most popular fan ending? No choices in a game about choice, Reaper off button, Shepard lives happilly ever after. You say it's ignorance, but time and time again you see people ranting and raving about how this is so much better than the current endings, despite the fact it's so contrived it sacrifices choice and explanation for the Reapers.

Success against unfavorable odds? Of course not, the current endings already provide that. Bland, happy ever after ending in a game that advertised itself as providing morally ambigious choices from the very beginning? Yes, that is contrived. Even ME1 and 2 have morally ambigious endings.

Modifié par Robosexual, 27 août 2013 - 08:10 .

[KaiserShep]

Mcfly616 wrote...

You can get the High EMS endings whilst
having Tali commit suicide, shooting the VS, betraying Mordin and Wrex,
seeing Miranda get killed, blasting Filare after Samara commits
suicide.....all before the final act of the game.



Still
not seeing how you consider the High EMS endings to be 100%
"happy-go-lucky". There are variables that interchange. Sure....a
happy-go-lucky ending is possible in my subjective opinion. But I
wouldn't necessarily consider any ending that's High EMS to be totally
"Happy" by default.

As I stated before, I'm basing this off of the "optimal" outcome, in which the player minimizes or prevents casualties in each mission, rather than having them commit suicide, or die in the suicide mission, or have an entire species wiped out before the final act. I say optimal strictly in terms of the highest amount of assets you can acquire in a purely single player campaign, which also includes every member of the ME2 team (save Mordin if you cure the genophage with Wrex).

Robosexual wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...

So then would you agree that the current ending is "contrived"? Because honky dory is pretty much how it turns out in every choice in high EMS, not to mention people's expectations of Shepard's survival actually being fulfilled in one of them.

Success against unfavorable odds does not determine whether or not a conclusion is a contrivance in and of itself.

Shepard dies in the end, and hunky dory is how it turns out in the current endings? That must explain why people like refering to it as galactic rape or genocide.

Shepard does in fact survive in high EMS destroy (aside from the imagery being pretty obvious, BioWare even went ahead and confirmed it), and technically, yes, it does turn out hunky-dory. Players balking at the ethics of wiping out the synthetics is kind of irrelevant, because their distaste for the results of that decision do not change the fact that the rest of the galaxy is still pretty much saved, and everything is rebuilt. Some may shout from the rooftops at how horrible this is, while others begrudgingly accept it, and others might actually embrace it.

The most popular fan ending? No choices in a game about choice, Reaper off button, Shepard lives happilly ever after. You say it's ignorance, but time and time again you see people ranting and raving about how this is so much better than the current endings, despite the fact it's so contrived it sacrifices choice and explanation for the Reapers.

I've read plenty of detailed criticism on the ending, both on BSN and elsewhere, and it's just not as simple as people wanting a perfectly happy ending with little to no moral ambiguity and riding off into the sunset with their LI. Sure, a lot of the fandom would probably jump for joy at such a thing, but it's not so simple as to be boiled down to this alone.

Success against unfavorable odds? Of course not, the current endings already provide that. Bland, happy ever after ending in a game that advertised itself as providing morally ambigious choices from the very beginning? Yes, that is contrived. Even ME1 and 2 have morally ambigious endings.

Both ME1 and 2, despite having morally ambiguous choices to cap off their conclusions, have fixed endings (in the case of 2, can be perfectly happy in an everyone-lives playthrough). Nothing you do in ME1's ending affects whether or not Sovereign is destroyed, saving the galaxy anyway. Keeping or destroying the Collector base does not change the fate of the Collectors themselves. The problem I have with describing a general concept as bland is that it's only a projection of what you believe the ending would be like, with no account for any details that would flesh out this ending.

Do you consider all happy endings to be bland? 

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 10:37 .

[Mcfly616]

So you're saying the "optimal" (aka the best possible) ending should have less.....happiness?

[KaiserShep]

Could you elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 10:17 .

[Mcfly616]

I guess its lost in translation? Idk....seems like you're saying the high EMS endings are "honky dory" (in which case, I disagree). So, I was simply questioning if you would prefer less happiness....

Modifié par Mcfly616, 27 août 2013 - 10:18 .

[KaiserShep]

I'm disregarding all variations of high EMS endings except for the ones that have the maximum amount of survivors for each ending. Any storyline that has Tali dive off the cliff (in which case the Quarians are extinct) doesn't count. If Samara shot herself in the head, that doesn't count. If Kasumi got vaporized in engineering, the import from that doesn't count. If Grunt dies in the Rachni cave, then nope. This is what I clearly defined as the "optimal" outcome in my previous comment.

As for the ending being hunky-dory, disagreement is irrelevant. It's not about whether the player likes the ending, but rather the state of the galaxy. The day is saved and everything is rebuilt.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 10:38 .

[Clayless]

KaiserShep wrote...

-snip-

You haven't really helped your point, and you're deviating from it. You say my point is ignorant but haven't really said anything to show why. I've presented MEHEM and, though I'd not mentioned them beforehand, all those countless players that say "Citadel DLC is my ending".

That's players caring more about a happy ending and their romance than choice, an explanation to the Reapers (so basically, prefering it to the plot), logic and coherence.

[JamesFaith]

AlanC9 wrote...

Gabbenator8787 wrote...


Well said. Why play this when theres definitely better games on the market? Honestly as a harcore RPGer, it truly boggles the mind that there are people out there who are willing to endure a linear final mission, an extremely tedious trench run and psuedo-philosophical dribble from from caper the genocidal ghost for 20 straight times in a row. 

The "I am a hardcore RPGer " card? Really?

Why so suprised?

This is the guy who once claimed that you are not "true fan" when you have positive opinion on endings.

But I have ti admit that after "true fans" and "hardcore fans"  is "hardcore RPGer" new superiority over others label here. 

[KaiserShep]

Robosexual,

I said that it was willful ignorance, as your point was basically generalizing, painting broad strokes across the entirety of the endings' critics as if it was representative of everyone who had lots of problems with the ending, or even hated it. This is what I gathered from your comment:

If there's one thing video game companies learned from all this, it's innovation and storytelling comes second because people only care about their fake romances and having their hand held to a bland happy ending, even in series where such an ending would be highly contrived.

There are plenty of reasons why people dislike the endings. And I've seen plenty throughout BSN too. It's not all about love interests, or just having fairytale endings. To insist that people *ONLY* care about their fake romances and "bland happy ending" is disingenuous, because people have expressed in great detail many of their gripes that go well beyond these issues. The existence of MEHEM or random people on BSN insisting on having Citadel be their ending does not suddenly make this generalization come true.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 10:57 .

[jstme]

It is not about hard choices and sacrifices vs hunky dorriness. Its about fitting ending. Tuchanka arch involves choices,different outcomes ,moral dillemas,twists and can end in sacrifice and betrayal.
I fail to see people criticizing it or demanding it to be different with more happy happy joy joy.
You know why? Because it is not contrived,it fits ME3. It fits rest of trilogy. It is there to end mass effect genophage story, not to cause speculations and artsy hipster hype by presenting foreign themes from different stories.

[KaiserShep]

And that's really the thing. Fitting the narrative is generally what matters the most. If people get an ending that is senseless and anticlimactic, they'll just go ahead and express their desire for their ideal ending, many of which will just be fairytale grade. But what people desire for the protagonist can be overridden by an ending that properly follows through with how the story played out up until that point. Look at the big episode in season 3 of Game of Thrones. Lots of fans definitely did not want that to happen, but it not only fits completely with the story because of how it follows through with an event in the past, but it also made the story immensely more exciting for the right reasons. The end of The Walking Dead game may not be what people were hoping for, but it was a satisfying conclusion because it made sense, while hitting the right notes emotionally.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 27 août 2013 - 11:34 .