260 réponses à ce sujet

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The truth is that there are plenty of good reasons to both like and dislike the ending. Of course, that viewpoint isn't sexy or rage-inducing so usually when I say it, it gets drowned out by both sides.

I don't begrudge people who actually like the endings, though I can't fathom why they do.

But a game which inundates you with War Assets a tiered  EMS system, and so called "choices that matter"t, here was zero reason not to provide a full array of endings that could have satisfied a whole range of people 

[KaiserShep]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's been less of it lately (there's been less interesting discussion in general), but upon release and the following months I found quite a lot of interesting criticisms of the ending. Here's one of my favorites that had really interesting discussion for an impressive number of pages: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1

That's a pretty good post. I wouldn't say it qualifies as bland or illogical at all.

[Gabbenator8787]

iakus wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The truth is that there are plenty of good reasons to both like and dislike the ending. Of course, that viewpoint isn't sexy or rage-inducing so usually when I say it, it gets drowned out by both sides.

I don't begrudge people who actually like the endings, though I can't fathom why they do.

But a game which inundates you with War Assets a tiered  EMS system, and so called "choices that matter"t, here was zero reason not to provide a full array of endings that could have satisfied a whole range of people 

Exactly and lets not forget the extreme linear streamlining of the missions, utterly dumbed down dialogue wheel and a forced sucide situation for Shepard (not counting high EMS Destroy). 

Seriously pro-enders do you honestly expect us to believe this wasnt a completely rushed ending and that its the best Bioware could've come up? 

Modifié par Gabbenator8787, 27 août 2013 - 11:11 .

[sveners]

KaiserShep wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's been less of it lately (there's been less interesting discussion in general), but upon release and the following months I found quite a lot of interesting criticisms of the ending. Here's one of my favorites that had really interesting discussion for an impressive number of pages: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1

That's a pretty good post. I wouldn't say it qualifies as bland or illogical at all.

Agreed.

Especially liked the part about Shepard not being a tragic hero. As far as tragic heroes goes, the Catalyst would fit the bill better. Realizing that his solution is flawed and giving up his existence in the hope of a better future. With the help of some random organic ofc.

[CronoDragoon]

iakus wrote...

I don't begrudge people who actually like the endings, though I can't fathom why they do.

You can't fathom it or you don't agree with their reasons? The distinction is important.

But a game which inundates you with War Assets a tiered  EMS system, and so called "choices that matter"t, here was zero reason not to provide a full array of endings that could have satisfied a whole range of people 

Besides money and time, I agree. Had they simply added an EMS tier for Destroy that contained a perfect Crucible with no synthetic destruction outside the Reapers, they likely would have satisfied a significant number of people currently dissatisfied.

That's not really a matter of money and time, though, since synthetic destruction would have simply assumed the low EMS spot. The answer is clearly that they were not concerned for the happiness of the player, as was made evident by Casey's pre-release statement that they wanted a bittersweet ending.

I think they misread just how many people see Mass Effect as a power fantasy instead of a realm of moral dilemma. I say that without saying either is good or bad in this case, simply a hypothesis about what each found interesting about the world and game structure. It's clear from ME1 marketing that BW thought it was the latter, but the actual product, combined with ME2, produces a series about the former. Thus the expectation for ME3 to follow suit, an expectation I shared.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 27 août 2013 - 10:00 .

[Mcfly616]

Bioware has never been the gold standard with Ending Scenes. In fact, I'd say its always been one of their weaknesses. KotoR has one of the most bland and vanilla ending scenes I've experienced in the past decade (especially considering the journey that it was concluding)


The best ending scene they've come up with (imo) is the last scene of ME2 when the Reaper armada is approaching the Milky Way. And even that scene wouldn't be half as good as it is, were it not for the Suicide Mission/The End Run soundtrack reaching its crescendo at that exact moment.


Bioware makes engaging game experiences? Sure.

Bioware is known for its stellar endings/finales? Not so much....

[sveners]

Mcfly616 wrote...

Bioware has never been the gold standard with Ending Scenes. In fact, I'd say its always been one of their weaknesses. KotoR has one of the most bland and vanilla ending scenes I've experienced in the past decade (especially considering the journey that it was concluding)


The best ending scene they've come up with (imo) is the last scene of ME2 when the Reaper armada is approaching the Milky Way. And even that scene wouldn't be half as good as it is, were it not for the Suicide Mission/The End Run soundtrack reaching its crescendo at that exact moment.


Bioware makes engaging game experiences? Sure.

Bioware is known for its stellar endings/finales? Not so much....

I think that might be a reason you enjoyed the ending. You did not expect much, and the game itself was engaging? Of course there's probably a lot more to it. But as a factor.

As for myself, I do think they've made awesome endings. In fact I think most of their endings were great. Kotor, imo, was awesome. I was never disappointed before ME3 (perhaps a little with DA2..), and that's why it ...stings..

[jstme]

Mcfly616 wrote...
Bioware has never been the gold standard with Ending Scenes. In fact, I'd say its always been one of their weaknesses. KotoR has one of the most bland and vanilla ending scenes I've experienced in the past decade (especially considering the journey that it was concluding)
The best ending scene they've come up with (imo) is the last scene of ME2 when the Reaper armada is approaching the Milky Way. And even that scene wouldn't be half as good as it is, were it not for the Suicide Mission/The End Run soundtrack reaching its crescendo at that exact moment.
Bioware makes engaging game experiences? Sure. 
Bioware is known for its stellar endings/finales? Not so much....

But you actually strengthen the point.Lots and lots and lots of people that played lots of Bioware games and experienced tons of ending scenes created by Bioware (that never were gold standard in that cathegory, as you said) were so traumatized by ME3 ending that all kinds of things happened on the scale unwitnessed prior to it for Bioware product or any other video game.
This is how bad ME3 ending was. 

[Iakus]

CronoDragoon wrote...

You can't fathom it or you don't agree with their reasons? The distinction is important.

The former.  I hear the reasons, but can't understand why that's enough for them.  It makes them happy, great, but I can't understand why it makes them happy.  Nor why my being happy would somehow make them unhappy.

Besides money and time, I agree. Had they simply added an EMS tier for Destroy that contained a perfect Crucible with no synthetic destruction outside the Reapers, they likely would have satisfied a significant number of people currently dissatisfied.

That's not really a matter of money and time, though, since synthetic destruction would have simply assumed the low EMS spot. The answer is clearly that they were not concerned for the happiness of the player, as was made evident by Casey's pre-release statement that they wanted a bittersweet ending.

Doesn't unhappy players=less revenue?  Either now or with their next product?  Or are they assuming we'll be trusting sheep for the next Mass Effect title?

And it is possible to make bittersweet endings without p*ssing off your customers.  Not easilly, but DAO certainly managed.

I think they misread just how many people see Mass Effect as a power fantasy instead of a realm of moral dilemma. I say that without saying either is good or bad in this case, simply a hypothesis about what each found interesting about the world and game structure. It's clear from ME1 marketing that BW thought it was the latter, but the actual product, combined with ME2, produces a series about the former. Thus the expectation for ME3 to follow suit, an expectation I shared.

Or they misread just how far they can push people.  Telling people their choices matter while at the same time leaving them with no satisfactory solutions is asking for trouble.

[Yestare7]

 I disliked (not hated) the ending, and have replaced it with the Citadel DLC



...

[Mcfly616]

@sveners

Low expectations? Umm....no. I certainly wanted it to be good. But I certainly didnt know what to expect. The one thing I expected is that Shepard would inevitably pay the ultimate price, and that's about it.

I never liked the original ending. In fact, I bashed it mercilessly. So, Bioware being sub-par at creating endings had nothing to do with my feelings towards the ME3 ending.

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 27 août 2013 - 10:46 .

[Iakus]

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

[AlanC9]

jstme wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
Bioware has never been the gold standard with Ending Scenes. In fact, I'd say its always been one of their weaknesses. KotoR has one of the most bland and vanilla ending scenes I've experienced in the past decade (especially considering the journey that it was concluding)
The best ending scene they've come up with (imo) is the last scene of ME2 when the Reaper armada is approaching the Milky Way. And even that scene wouldn't be half as good as it is, were it not for the Suicide Mission/The End Run soundtrack reaching its crescendo at that exact moment.
Bioware makes engaging game experiences? Sure. 
Bioware is known for its stellar endings/finales? Not so much....

But you actually strengthen the point.Lots and lots and lots of people that played lots of Bioware games and experienced tons of ending scenes created by Bioware (that never were gold standard in that cathegory, as you said) were so traumatized by ME3 ending that all kinds of things happened on the scale unwitnessed prior to it for Bioware product or any other video game.
This is how bad ME3 ending was. 

Which just brings us back to the question of why ME3's ending was so much worse received than other Bio endings. Every time someone posts a list of Immutable Design Principles that ME3 violated, it turns out that someone -- usually Bio itself  -- has done those things before without any big problem.

[KaiserShep]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

Despite all the things I say, I do rather like at least some of the ending. Granted, it takes some effort to do so, because there really are a lot of illogical bits and lots of as*pulls to accomplish much of what happens, but I do like the outcome. To the ending's credit, I can reject the Catalyst's premise, and the game actually rewards that decision, more or less.

[AlanC9]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

I don't think it's a lack of resources that kept you from getting what you would have liked.

[jstme]

AlanC9 wrote...

jstme wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...
Bioware has never been the gold standard with Ending Scenes. In fact, I'd say its always been one of their weaknesses. KotoR has one of the most bland and vanilla ending scenes I've experienced in the past decade (especially considering the journey that it was concluding)
The best ending scene they've come up with (imo) is the last scene of ME2 when the Reaper armada is approaching the Milky Way. And even that scene wouldn't be half as good as it is, were it not for the Suicide Mission/The End Run soundtrack reaching its crescendo at that exact moment.
Bioware makes engaging game experiences? Sure. 
Bioware is known for its stellar endings/finales? Not so much....

But you actually strengthen the point.Lots and lots and lots of people that played lots of Bioware games and experienced tons of ending scenes created by Bioware (that never were gold standard in that cathegory, as you said) were so traumatized by ME3 ending that all kinds of things happened on the scale unwitnessed prior to it for Bioware product or any other video game.
This is how bad ME3 ending was. 

Which just brings us back to the question of why ME3's ending was so much worse received than other Bio endings. Every time someone posts a list of Immutable Design Principles that ME3 violated, it turns out that someone -- usually Bio itself  -- has done those things before without any big problem.

I do not know about any other Bioware game with ending specifically designed to cause speculations from everyone as a primary goal.  

[Reorte]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

I can partially understand it - the EC does have a bit more of a feelgood bit to it, and there is more overall scope (but not personal) closure by actually showing something beyond the Normandy in a "WTF are we going to do now?" situation. After all ME3 was supposed to be about effects on more than just the Normandy and its crew so totally ignoring the rest of the galaxy was the only mistake that got corrected. So if you don't really care much about the characters or the explanations I could see the EC working. But to me that means everything else has failed - if you're not invested enough with the characters that you're satisfied then the writing of those characters must never have worked properly for you in the first place.

Then there's the remaining complete and utter lack of intelligence in the whole ending mess, which remains in the EC, but I think that that comes back to the type of flaw that, whilst you may notice it, doesn't bother you too much if you're overall left feeling satisfied (mileage will vary from person to person as to the extent this happens).

[Reorte]

jstme wrote...

I do not know about any other Bioware game with ending specifically designed to cause speculations from everyone as a primary goal. 

The problem wasn't speculation but that it was left in areas where it needed to be resolved. There is a place for speculation, questions that were raised by ME3 but are beyond its scope to answer. The main one of these IMO is, if you cure the genophage, will it lead to another Krogan Rebellion.

[Mcfly616]

Reorte wrote...

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

I can partially understand it - the EC does have a bit more of a feelgood bit to it, and there is more overall scope (but not personal) closure by actually showing something beyond the Normandy in a "WTF are we going to do now?" situation. After all ME3 was supposed to be about effects on more than just the Normandy and its crew so totally ignoring the rest of the galaxy was the only mistake that got corrected. So if you don't really care much about the characters or the explanations I could see the EC working. But to me that means everything else has failed - if you're not invested enough with the characters that you're satisfied then the writing of those characters must never have worked properly for you in the first place.

it has nothing to do with having more "feel-good". My problem with the original endings stems from the fact that it seemed as if huge chunks of information were just left out. There were just blank spots everywhere. It was entirely too vague and abrupt. And in the end, I was left wondering: why did Liara and Garrus just bail on me and watch me charge to my death? Why didnt the Catalyst explain itself in any way whatsoever? And most importantly, what impact did my final choice have on the galaxy.....what sort of future did I provide for this place I've come to care about? Like....wtf just happened?

The EC actually fills in the blanks. And it made sense. Color me satisfied. I never thought I would be. Especially 2 weeks prior to its release when Bioware released pics of Mac looking at screenshots of the Memorial Wall scene, and I realized that they were simply making the original ending longer, instead of giving us a new ending in which Shepard "wakes up" and finishes the fight. After that, I was livid. Seriously disappointed. I wrote off the EC before it ever came out. But there I was at 5:30am on the day of its release (last June), with a huge grin on my face as the Catalyst explained "everything" I ever needed to know, as I was shown the new beginning I gave to the galaxy, as the credits rolled.

As far as my squadmates are concerned.....ofcourse I cared about them. They've already told me what they're going to do if they survive the war. So that was never a problem I had with the original endings. I didn't need a scene of Tali building her house or Shep and Liara holding a blue baby. No, what I needed was to see the bigger picture. EC delivered.

Modifié par Mcfly616, 28 août 2013 - 12:43 .

[MegaSovereign]

iakus wrote...

Mcfly616 wrote...

No, it was the EC that changed my mind. ME3's ending went from being the worst finale Bioware had ever created.....to being the best finale they ever created.

See this is exactly what I mean.  I can't understand it, I certainly don't hate you for it.  But this is a strange and alien concept to me.  I simply can't grasp what's to like.  And why there were apparantly no resources left to create an ending I would like.

I don't think it's the best ending to wrap up the Mass Effect trilogy but I can see why people would like it. It's not really a traditional story ending. This on it's own is bound to attract a certain niche.

I seriously doubt that you can't see how some of the themes expressed in the endings wouldn't be attractive to some.

[Clayless]

[quote]CronoDragoon wrote...

[quote]Robosexual wrote...

I have, I've been here for over a year and I've seen lots of criticism, but it generally boils down to calling things that aren't plot holes, plot holes, or ****ing about Bioware because the ending made them feel sad. Have you ever actually seen anyone discuss the parts of the ending they hate? Or do you just see ****ing about it and a point blank refusal to change their faulty preconceived notions? Unlike you though, someone below you has responded and I'll respond in kind.[/quote]
[/quote]

There's been less of it lately (there's been less interesting discussion in general), but upon release and the following months I found quite a lot of interesting criticisms of the ending. Here's one of my favorites that had really interesting discussion for an impressive number of pages: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1[/quote]

Actually reading this, apart from the OP getting some things wrong (the Catalyst being a DEM for example) and clarifying he actively wants to see things go wrong and is more than likely no longer a fan:

[quote]I hope it continues to backfire.[/quote]

He does actually bring up a, more or less, complete ending alternative. It does have some glaring problems, such as the "only cycle to unite the galaxy" (despite the fact you can easily get to the end without doing that) and the fact the player technically doesn't do anything in the end except dodge some lasers, but all-in-all it's one of the best I've seen. It could do with some adjustments, as one of the main things the current ending did perfectly was, finally, present a hard choice that Shepard alone must make (as in his alternative he presents "let Liara commit suicide willingly AND win the game" as being a choice, something that a lot of people wouldn't find hard to do I'm sure).

[quote]Now, if you want to account for this with your "generally" statement then that is fine, but I could also say that following release, "generally" pro-ending threads contained very little argument and a lot of dissing people who didn't like it. And that whole debate over which group is more mature really doesn't lead anywhere good.

The truth is that there are plenty of good reasons to both like and dislike the ending. Of course, that viewpoint isn't sexy or rage-inducing so usually when I say it, it gets drowned out by both sides. [/quote]

Generally anti-ending threads are mindless bashing and deliberate misquotes and lies to perpetuate the mostly self-inflicted hatred they have for the endings, rather than actual meaningful or intelligent discussion, but yeah I can see how you came to your conclusion. It's drowned out because the fanbase is irreversibly broken, though I can say that blame is partly on Bioware too. I just hate the fact I'll never be able to ask Bioware questions on ME3 because it'll be drowned out by people who don't care for the series anymore and screech that everything Bioware does is an "insult". There's just far too much bad blood on all sides.

[Bionuts]

It's about perspective. I did not like the ending because of want of information. I have NOT played any DLC, however. I have it on my BoxX, but haven't given it a go.

It's not very hard to understand why some people would like the ending. I have seen terrible things in my life. I've seen a person get tortured, a woman get raped, pedophiles run free, etc. I've seen churches broken, marriages ruined, betrayal, lies, abuse, etc. I cannot escape these things that run in life. I've been in the middle of some of the most detestable things a human can do. Not much I can do, though. Prison is not my home. 2 kids I had met in the middle school nearby killed themselves because they were getting bullied. Horrible things that happen, right? Ugh.

Anyways, my point is that I've seen so much destruction that order is attractive to me. When people talk about "humanity finding it's own way" I see it as stupid (no offense). Tis' a fools choice to turn away order. I do not like the Catalyst, but what it represents is something I can respect.

[AlanC9]

It sounds like you've had a terrible run of luck there, but I'm sure that's occurred to you.

Anyways, my point is that I've seen so much destruction that order is attractive to me. When people talk about "humanity finding it's own way" I see it as stupid (no offense). Tis' a fools choice to turn away order. I do not like the Catalyst, but what it represents is something I can respect.

So........ Control?

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 août 2013 - 07:24 .

[Bionuts]

None of the endings really clarify their result. Synthesis sounds good IF you assume that people gain an understanding of each other (breeds empathy). That is an assumption, however. Control is dangerous, because I'm not certain that Shepard is qualified to have that kind of power. Destroy simply leaves us with the "find your own way" ending, which grosses me out.

[KaiserShep]

Why would a "find your own way" ending gross you out?

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 août 2013 - 08:11 .