260 réponses à ce sujet

[Yestare7]

 Best part of the ending:   
Liara is about to put the plaque on the wall, then stares up and smiles, feeling that Shep is alive.

[Dubozz]

Yeah, they know for sure Anderson is dead, but know nothing about Shep. Another piece of art.

[Bionuts]

KaiserShep wrote...

Why would a "find your own way" ending gross you out?

Bionuts wrote...


It's
not very hard to understand why some people would like the ending. I
have seen terrible things in my life. I've seen a person get tortured, a
woman get raped, pedophiles run free, etc. I've seen churches broken,
marriages ruined, betrayal, lies, abuse, etc. I cannot escape these
things that run in life. I've been in the middle of some of the most
detestable things a human can do. Not much I can do, though. Prison is
not my home. 2 kids I had met in the middle school nearby killed
themselves because they were getting bullied. Horrible things that
happen, right? Ugh.

Anyways, my point is that I've seen so much
destruction that order is attractive to me. When people talk about
"humanity finding it's own way" I see it as stupid (no offense). Tis' a
fools choice to turn away order. I do not like the Catalyst, but what it
represents is something I can respect.

^ That's why.

[KaiserShep]

Bionuts wrote...
Anyways, my point is that I've seen so much destruction that order is attractive to me. When people talk about "humanity finding it's own way" I see it as stupid (no offense). Tis' a fools choice to turn away order.

I take issue with your third sentence in particular. Not all forms of order are actually beneficial, regardless of whether or not it stems from good intentions. It's a fools notion to believe that simply imposing more order automatically makes life better. This is kind of why I reject Control. Really thinking about it, and how we behave towards even regular human despots on earth, there's no way the entirety of any sapient life form would accept some grand overlord, let alone the very ones that were killing them by the millions not long ago, moderating over all of its affairs without building frustration, acts of violence against collaborators, and even plots to destroy the overlords themselves. And what's an overlord to do, but put those lasers to work? Only thing they can do is sit back and let the puny races look out for themselves, because there's no way to micromanage them without destroying a few of them, or risk having yourself be destroyed, in the process.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 août 2013 - 08:44 .

[Bionuts]

KaiserShep wrote...

Bionuts wrote...
Anyways, my point is that I've seen so much destruction that order is attractive to me. When people talk about "humanity finding it's own way" I see it as stupid (no offense). Tis' a fools choice to turn away order.

"No offense" doesn't really work if you plainly refer to the notion of humanity's self-determination as stupid, and I also take issue with your third sentence in particular. Not all forms of order are actually beneficial, regardless of whether or not it stems from good intentions. It's a fools notion to believe that simply imposing more order automatically makes life better.

"No offense" was put in there, because I'm hostile against the idea, but not those that hold it. Should've simply said that.

Not all forms of order are good, obviously. However, order does help keep people in check. Order is needed, and my hearts desire above all else is for a sufficient amount to exist in this world. The result is what matters to me. I do not trust humanity to "find it's own way". At least I don't think it will end up with the world truly being a place where people do truly "respect" each other.

I like the idea of order. I like honesty. The idea that humanity can find it's own way to a more respectful world is a lie to me.

However, the whole point is that some people might respect what the Catalyst stands for. Some people might like Control, or even Synthesis more, because it shares the idea that humanity can't find it's own way.

[KaiserShep]

The problem I have is with the concept of order, which is incredibly vague. How do you impose order? How does it make everyone's lives better? No single entity can ever really determine what's best for everyone. Life simply does not work that way. The saying "One man's heaven is another man's hell" holds weight for a reason. There is no universal standard for all of the things that constitute a common good.

I'm guessing from this line of thinking, you must think we're all royally screwed, since we kind of have no choice but to find our own way in reality anyway.

Modifié par KaiserShep, 28 août 2013 - 08:59 .

[Bionuts]

It's called fantasy for a reason.

Born in different cultures, different times, different perspectives, etc. I understand. However, we can only see the world through the eyes we're given, and we all choose an ending based on that.

[Bionuts]

KaiserShep wrote...

you must think we're all royally screwed, since we kind of have no choice but to find our own way in reality anyway.

Royally screwed in ever coming to a point in time where the majority of people respect each other. Yep.

Perhaps not in other areas, but my perspective holds the above very highly.

[jstme]

Bionuts wrote...

KaiserShep wrote...
you must think we're all royally screwed, since we kind of have no choice but to find our own way in reality anyway. 

Royally screwed in ever coming to a point in time where the majority of people respect each other. Yep.
Perhaps not in other areas, but my perspective holds the above very highly.

Ants have order. There is lots of death and suffering in the ant world too.Not to mention that they do not respect each other one bit,just follow inbuilt rules to advance their hive. Nothing can justify loosing your individualism ,with all its negative aspects in order to be a mindless drone in a hive.
If you think that you can have individuality and order - you are wrong.  

[Bionuts]

Order already exists within this world. Ideals, habits, morals, etc., are already instilled in people. It's simply not leading to something satisfying.

[Ieldra]

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's been less of it lately (there's been less interesting discussion in general), but upon release and the following months I found quite a lot of interesting criticisms of the ending. Here's one of my favorites that had really interesting discussion for an impressive number of pages: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1

I recall reading that threat when the alternative ending proposition wasn't in the OP yet. I must say that the proposed alternative ending looks very good. The best variant stays with the tone of the story established by the trilogy while avoiding some of the thematic directions which make me dislike most of the other proposed alternative endings. Also, the tension is palpable even if you only read it.

[wright1978]

Yestare7 wrote...

 Best part of the ending:   
Liara is about to put the plaque on the wall, then stares up and smiles, feeling that Shep is alive.

Hmm different reactions. I felt anger when i saw how they utterly refused to provide proper clarification for Live Shep and instead tagged him/her into dead Shep's memorial with ME1 LI or random squaddie suddenly apparently feeling a disturbance in the force. If Shep's alive why are they holding a memorial for him in the 1st place. Are they still stranded and cut off and just making crass assumptions based on no knowledge of Shep's fate but that seems completely out of character for Normandy crew. Felt utterly disrespectful as if they couldn't be bothered to design a scene that could respect dead Shep and encorporate live Shep so they just added this piece of nonsense instead. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

[Wayning_Star]

maybe Shep didn't want to be found? Had enough fun'n excitement? According to the star gazer, Shep does alright in any event. (that being the actual ending sequence, not the triggering of the crucible, or the "Sheppard" choices...)

[Wayning_Star]

OMG, the stargazer lied.. I'm so upset right now.

[Bionuts]

If they're at the point of having a memorial, and still haven't found Shepard, then she's probably dead.

[Wayning_Star]

Bionuts wrote...

If they're at the point of having a memorial, and still haven't found Shepard, then she's probably dead.

nah, Shep's alive, it's even posted in the game/story guide. I found it funny tho, that most reject the fact that the "entire" story is told by someone unexplained and that makes the end game moot, as we invest in Shepard. Neat if raunchy twist to the story. I'd call it a writer escape clause..lol

Blame the star gazer, the "story" is his/hers, not Shepards'...  (figment of the SG's imagination, and then ours...)

[wright1978]

Bionuts wrote...

If they're at the point of having a memorial, and still haven't found Shepard, then she's probably dead.

The fact that no one other than Normandy crew is there suggests they are just a bunch of twits who couldn't work out how to get their communication system fixed or which way they need to fly to get back to Earth. Or they crash again seconds after re-taking off and end up breeding resulting in thicko grandpa the hillybilly stargazer king.

[Wayning_Star]

wright1978 wrote...

Bionuts wrote...

If they're at the point of having a memorial, and still haven't found Shepard, then she's probably dead.

The fact that no one other than Normandy crew is there suggests they are just a bunch of twits who couldn't work out how to get their communication system fixed or which way they need to fly to get back to Earth. Or they crash again seconds after re-taking off and end up breeding resulting in thicko grandpa the hillybilly stargazer king.

well, actually we don't get to see any others there, but that would seem to be because they're on the Normandy, Shepard's ship proper...

grandpa is probably a thrall anyways so...


(just kidding... maybe)

[CronoDragoon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I recall reading that threat when the alternative ending proposition wasn't in the OP yet. I must say that the proposed alternative ending looks very good. The best variant stays with the tone of the story established by the trilogy while avoiding some of the thematic directions which make me dislike most of the other proposed alternative endings. Also, the tension is palpable even if you only read it.

I think it's good, but I do see a glaring problem that could possibly be explained away by details, but if Harbinger really is the only thing keeping the Reapers unified and capable of galaxy-wide assault, then I doubt he'd ever engage in open combat, especially when the precedent in ME2 is established that he can exert his control over minds from dark space. But perhaps the Reapers are too powerful for that long a connection.

Still, it's not like such logical questions don't exist in the current ending, so frankly it sounds better than what we received, even post-EC.

[Iakus]

wright1978 wrote...

Hmm different reactions. I felt anger when i saw how they utterly refused to provide proper clarification for Live Shep and instead tagged him/her into dead Shep's memorial with ME1 LI or random squaddie suddenly apparently feeling a disturbance in the force. If Shep's alive why are they holding a memorial for him in the 1st place. Are they still stranded and cut off and just making crass assumptions based on no knowledge of Shep's fate but that seems completely out of character for Normandy crew. Felt utterly disrespectful as if they couldn't be bothered to design a scene that could respect dead Shep and encorporate live Shep so they just added this piece of nonsense instead. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

QFT

That alone made me feel trolled by Bioware.

[Benchpress610]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

There's been less of it lately (there's been less interesting discussion in general), but upon release and the following months I found quite a lot of interesting criticisms of the ending. Here's one of my favorites that had really interesting discussion for an impressive number of pages: social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/10022779/1

I recall reading that threat when the alternative ending proposition wasn't in the OP yet. I must say that the proposed alternative ending looks very good. The best variant stays with the tone of the story established by the trilogy while avoiding some of the thematic directions which make me dislike most of the other proposed alternative endings. Also, the tension is palpable even if you only read it.

I’d have to agree. I read the whole post. That would’ve been an ending I would’ve been satisfied with.

[mupp3tz]

It was a bit weird that they were certain about Anderson's fate but not Shepard's. Hmm.. I don't recall Shepard ever telling Hackett about what happened, either. I guess that was just Bioware's way of giving a more optimistic ending.

Does the same thing happen if you chose Synthesis or Control?

[Clayless]

M U P P 3 T Z wrote...

It was a bit weird that they were certain about Anderson's fate but not Shepard's. Hmm.. I don't recall Shepard ever telling Hackett about what happened, either. I guess that was just Bioware's way of giving a more optimistic ending.

Does the same thing happen if you chose Synthesis or Control?

Shepard disintegrates in Synthesis and Control.

[Reorte]

Bionuts wrote...

If they're at the point of having a memorial, and still haven't found Shepard, then she's probably dead.

If they haven't found her then she's missing in action and wouldn't be getting put up on the memorial wall. The memorial scene is supposed to imply survival but only works when you step out of the game and consider why it's there. It fails to achieve anything if you're trying to keep up the in-game illusion and think about it at the same time.