1868 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

Merin just ignore Sarah. Or no do not since I can do without another stalker. Shes done nothing but twist and distort anything I said. Placed words I never said in my mouth and flung poo.

Anyone with a once of reading comprehension and self sense will see that I have not attacked or dismissed anyones opnion about wanting more information but the methods that have been used to draw those conclusions. They might be right or wrong and only time can tell us that.

Now for the whole "its out and perfect" stuff. How many here actualy think those that allready have it are testing it? I mean testing it. Going to every nook and cranny, performing every action conceivable to make a bug happen. With every party combination possible, wearing different gear, using different builds, at different levels, and using different abilities.

Or did they just play it and go "I did not see a bug so it is perfect" ?

[Alphakiller]

The Angry One wrote...

Alphakiller wrote...

but I must also point out that before, when bioware's testing methods were... lacking... they let this glitch go through on something far more minor. even if there is only, say, a 1% chance that there is any major glitch in RtO that they haven't found, there are still two possibilities:

1) 1% chance of getting people even angrier at them breaking some function of the game, and losing customers. or even, if the glitch is major enough, experiencing a lawsuit.

2) 99% chance of having the perfectly rational excuse of thoroughly testing the material, but finding nothing wrong with it.

why is this better, since there's so little possiblity of finding something wrong with it? the worst that can happen with option two is that a few people grumble about being dissatisfied and MAYBE refuse to purchase the DLC in question.

see the difference here?

No software release is without some risk. Sometimes a bug just won't be caught by QA testers.
But in this case the title update having nothing to do with RtO just makes delaying RtO ridiculous. It's like delaying production on a new line of bus because your bicycle lost a wheel. Yes, both buses and bicycles have wheels but the chances that the buses need further tests because of the bicycle failed are.. slim at best.

And yes yes what if there's a bug and people complain? To which I counter, what if after this delay and this latest batch of QA testing, RtO is released and there's still a bug? Won't MORE people complain?
That's why you don't base everything on what if.

I suddenly understand why the guy kept getting annoyed at your logical fallacies...

i'll spare you the latin and just translate it to its most basic form:
false analogy; buses and bicycles have nothing to do with computer software.
do you honestly have any knowledge of how these things work?

and i'm not talking about minor bugs... those always exist. i'm talking about game breaking, or even console breaking, situations that may come up in the most adverse of situations. a thorough, purposeful testing is required, not the normal playing of the content.

seriously... thorough testing includes walking into all walls and corners just to make sure they're solid.

[MerinTB]

The Angry One wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
This is like saying people who saw the leaked, unfinished copy of the Wolverine movie knew how bad the CGI would be.
Without the full, intended release to study, the anecdotal evidence of a few dozen pirated copies being played proves nothing except that those people playing the pirated copies claim nothing was wrong when they played.

False analogy. I can't speak for the leaked PC version, but the 360 version was complete and officially released by BioWare.

The analogy of comparing a pirated copy of leaked game content to a pirated copy of a leaked film is not a false analogy.  I understand your distinction, but it's a distinction that makes many assumptions about the 360 version as compared to the PC version and whether or not they were truly considered bug-free.

And besides -

Just because a game or movie is "ready to be released" or even released doesn't mean there aren't errors as well.
Bioware decided after the Title Update incident with the 360 to pull back on all platform releases of RtO and beef-up their QA testing to be on the safe side.  This is a wise decision, IMO.

The "because of cross-platform agreements" reasoning is speculation at best, conspiracy theory at worst.

We have the accusations of random people on the internet versus the word from the game developers.  I'm sorry but I'll take their word on what they are doing over the "I know the truths" of anonymous people on a forum.

[The Angry One]

Of course you people can incessantly whine and moan about the people who dare to complain about this situation all you want, right?

The hypocrisy is so thick here I could slice it with a knife.

[Alphakiller]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

_LordKain_ wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Alphakiller wrote...

when RtO was first released, everybody KNEW there would be no major problems. and look what happened.
now they're priming to release it yet again, but this time they're being thorough in their testing (even though it seems obvious that there are no problems... just like last time), and you're yelling at them like some kind of spoiled child? and before you cry "ad hominem", i'm merely pointing out that your argument simply sounds to me like "Other people have it, so I deserve it now!"

YET AGAIN I have to point out that THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH RTO.
It was the title update which is unrelated and seperate to the point that 360 users who deleted their cache to get rid of the update but kept RtO before it got pulled are playing it without any problems.
Why does this simple yet important fact escape so many?

Yup, I think the "spoiled child" he's referring to is you.  You can **** and moan all you want, they're not going to release the DLC any sooner.

Yes constant whining, bickering, and flaming other posters accomplishes absolutely nothing.  People actually think that Bioware is going to read their constant whine/****-spam and just roll out the DLC for them on a red carpet?  Bollocks.

Next time I order a five dollar hamburger and something goes wrong I'm going to whine, complain, and nerd rage just so I can feel as foolish as they are.

now i'm hungry

[Treavor647]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

_LordKain_ wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Alphakiller wrote...

when RtO was first released, everybody KNEW there would be no major problems. and look what happened.
now they're priming to release it yet again, but this time they're being thorough in their testing (even though it seems obvious that there are no problems... just like last time), and you're yelling at them like some kind of spoiled child? and before you cry "ad hominem", i'm merely pointing out that your argument simply sounds to me like "Other people have it, so I deserve it now!"

YET AGAIN I have to point out that THERE WAS NOTHING WRONG WITH RTO.
It was the title update which is unrelated and seperate to the point that 360 users who deleted their cache to get rid of the update but kept RtO before it got pulled are playing it without any problems.
Why does this simple yet important fact escape so many?

Yup, I think the "spoiled child" he's referring to is you.  You can **** and moan all you want, they're not going to release the DLC any sooner.

Yes constant whining, bickering, and flaming other posters accomplishes absolutely nothing.  People actually think that Bioware is going to read their constant whine/****-spam and just roll out the DLC for them on a red carpet?  Bollocks.

Next time I order a five dollar hamburger and something goes wrong I'm going to whine, complain, and nerd rage just so I can feel as foolish as they are.

Here you are doing the same thing?  IF you dont agree with them say it once and move on.  Continuing to complain about their "complaining" is just hypocrisy?

Why attack people who want to be informed as  to why a certain release has not been out?  Bioware should expect this since missing the release date 3 times.  As they are paying customers they have every right to ask these questions in this forum.  That is what the forums are for.  When others who disagree with them attack them and call them whiners just because they dont see eye to eye, just ends up with the thread closed. And turn around and blame each other for them being the reason why.

[Mechnic]

Alphakiller wrote...

Mechnic wrote...

Feraele wrote...

Let me state VERY CLEARLY...I am a PC USER and I haven't even seen the opening scene of RTO yet. Maybe I'm unusual, but I don't believe in ripping merchants, and others off..even though it seems to be a mainstream trend these days. I probably belong in a museum, but I have my principles,...despite what "everyone else" is doing.

And this is the only time I am going to refer to that ..which is not mentionable.

Ah but Feraele is it okay for the "merchants" to rip you off? We purchased a product on the promise that the "merchant" would provide downloadable content to "increase/extend"  the playabilty and enjoyment of said product. Have we gotten that yet? Do we have any real explanations for why?  Why is it wrong for the customer "you and I and the rest of us" to want to be informed on why the "merchant" is NOT supporting its' promises? BW/EA screwed up BIG-TIME and they need to atone for their bad judgements. They got your and my money and millions of others. So what is wrong with this picture? Can you see it? How about all the people that bought BW/EA points because BW/EA said it (the DLC) would be out "this holiday season" or after that "jan 5th". They got the money but screwed the same people who feed them. 
 Now with all that ...you cannot see or realize why people would be pissed or feel like they got screwed?
I have pre-ordered ME2 but now I am having 2nd thoughts, does that make me an turncoat? No it's that I don't want to get screwed again by an unsupportive backstabbing "merchandiser".  They lied to you and me and every-one else in this forum, they made millions of dollars off of shallow promises. They out-and-out LIED.

delay = lie?

wow... here I thought english was my first language.

you see, you bought POINTS. you spend those POINTS on the dlc in question. just becuse the dlc isn't released yet doesn't mean that you lose your money... you'll still get the dlc if you already paid for it. 5 bucks paid in december and 5 bucks paid in feburary aren't going to get much difference.

in fact you're better off: technically, due to inflation, 5 bucks in feburary is worth less than 5 bucks in december of the previous year. you should be thanking bioware for saving your money if you buy it later, and not care at all if you bought the points in december.

they didn't cheat you out of you're money. you'll get your money's worth, and I, for one, would rather have quality content late than cheap crap on time.

So lets get this straight...I gave 5 bucks to BW/EA for a product that was promised in December? Right? Now how many other people did the same thing? To be frugal lets say 1million did...thats 5 million dollars thay got with NO interest!!!! They got a 5MILLION dollar loan interest free!!!! You don't get it do ya?

[DreGregoire]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you people can incessantly whine and moan about the people who dare to complain about this situation all you want, right?
The hypocrisy is so thick here I could slice it with a knife.

 

I don't know about anybody else but I was trying to help ease your anger by showing you how other people see it. *shrugs*  My Bad.

[Goth Skunk]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you people can incessantly whine and moan about the people who dare to complain about this situation all you want, right?
The hypocrisy is so thick here I could slice it with a knife.

Ultimately, once the situation is rectified, aside from a few days/weeks worth of waiting, you will have lost nothing. Thus, your griping and whining is fruitless.

That's really what it boils down to for everyone here. That's what I and other have been trying to open your eyes to see. When all of this blows over, you will have lost nothing, and gained the precious DLC you crave.

So seriously, suck it up, buttercup.

[The Angry One]

MerinTB wrote...

The analogy of comparing a pirated copy of leaked game content to a pirated copy of a leaked film is not a false analogy.  I understand your distinction, but it's a distinction that makes many assumptions about the 360 version as compared to the PC version and whether or not they were truly considered bug-free.

The fact remains the 360 version was deemed ready for release and made available for sale, thus it's a viable benchmark. Since those 360 users who got it before it was pulled say it works perfectly well, it's viable.

Just because a game or movie is "ready to be released" or even released doesn't mean there aren't errors as well.
Bioware decided after the Title Update incident with the 360 to pull back on all platform releases of RtO and beef-up their QA testing to be on the safe side.  This is a wise decision, IMO.

There will always be errors. That's what patching is for. If you continually delay software to make sure it's absolutely 100% perfect, you end up with Duke Nukem Forever.

The "because of cross-platform agreements" reasoning is speculation at best, conspiracy theory at worst.

See above. All evidence points to a stable, bug free DLC being delayed due to an unrelated 360 specific issue.
Until some evidence surfaces to contradict that, I will draw my conclusions from it.

[Rommel49]

MerinTB wrote...

Rommel49 wrote...
It's worth pointing out that your use of "ad hominem" wasn't actually correct. Translated it simply means "against the man" (that's why the entire fallacy is known as argumentum ad hominem). The fallacy does not apply to every single personal attack, insult, criticism, etc. against a person. It's essentially a form of red herring; when such an attack is both irrelevant and actually used as evidence against a position. Ironically, to say that somebody shouldn't be mean or insult someone and that it somehow diminishes a point being made falls under a logical fallacy all its own; "Style over substance".

Ok, honestly, I should be used to this by now, but it seems that most of the time I try and steer debates into being more constructive what ends up happening is I get one or several people who simply do not understand why certain things are detrimental to arguments.
Here's the online definition I use -

An
ad hominem argument is any that attempts to counter anothers claims or conclusions by attacking the person, rather than addressing the argument itself. True believers will often commit this fallacy by countering the arguments of skeptics by stating that skeptics are closed minded. Skeptics, on the other hand, may fall into the trap of dismissing the claims of UFO believers, for example, by stating that people who believe in UFO's are crazy or stupid.

The ad hominem attack, most often name-calling, is not constructive because it attempts to dismiss the person making the argument and not the person's argument.
Did you know I actually said this back around page 5?

MerinTB wrote...
And actually, an ad hominem isn't simply criticizing someone.  It's a logical fallacy because it derails or disrupts a discussion or debate without providing anything positive.  An actual definition -
Ad hominem - An ad hominem argument is any that attempts to counter anothers claims or conclusions by attacking the person, rather than addressing the argument itself.
Name-calling is the most prevalent form of ad hominem, and it is what you are doing with the constant antagonistic labeling of "fanboy."

When someone says, and I quote exactly - "But fanboyness is a form of blindness, so paint me unsurprised if you're unable to see it." - that someone is essentially saying that anything the person labeled as fanboy says is irrelevent because the person labeled fanboy's argument is flawed since that person simply is a fanboy.
Rommel49, that is a textbook example of the ad honimen logical fallacy.

Did you even read what I was addressing initially, or did you decide to jump in and try to prove that you are more intelligent than I am?  You may be more intelligent, I'm not laying claim to superior intellect here in the least, but your correction is flawed on at least a couple levels.  Read what I underlined that you said, what I underlined that I said, and what I underlined that the poster I was responding to said.  Exactly an ad hominem.  And as for irony and style over substance -

Asking someone to not call others names as a means to dismiss their arguments as irrelevant is not seeking style over substance but actually the opposite.  Your understanding of irony seems as flawed as most people, though that last part your wrote was ironic.
Ironic because, since irony is "when the literal and actual meaning are opposite", you said I was arguing for style over substance when I was actually arguing for substance over style. 

---

Yes, I did read the original discourse (painful as it was). Thing is, as I said, the fallacy doesn't apply to every criticism, etc. of a person. Using insults as rhetorical flourishes and the like doesn't qualify. As an example, say the topic was politics and who to vote for - it wouldn't be possible to debate such an issue without eventually committing that fallacy if your interpretation was correct. This isn't an uncommon mistake; "ad hominem" is one of, if not the most overly invoked logical fallacies out there.

This is why Style over Substance fits. Abriael's original point was essentially true and in actuality, it was never even really countered (it's just that the last sentence grabbed the most attention). If his argument contained nothing but the insult, then you'd have a point. To quote you from page 5 "name-calling is a sign of a weak argument, or at the very least a weak arguer", you didn't even address the main thrust of his point; now that's the sign of a weak argument or debater. Honestly, you're seriously arguing that the presentation of an argument or point (with bonus points given for no insults, name-calling, etc. apparently) is indicative of its quality and dismissing arguments on that basis alone; that's the definition of a Style over substance fallacy.

Modifié par Rommel49, 19 janvier 2010 - 07:46 .

[Alphakiller]

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you people can incessantly whine and moan about the people who dare to complain about this situation all you want, right?
The hypocrisy is so thick here I could slice it with a knife.

i'm just trying to point out that you're acting silly...
I, for one, am leaving in a couple minutes to spend the day with my gf. when I get home i'll probably play a few games online of Red alert 3, then check dragon age to see if the dlc is released yet. i'll think "oh, darn" when it isn't out yet, and try again the next day. tomorrow i'll probably spend some time with my friends, or whatever else I feel like doing. maybe check what's going on at the restuarant I work at on weekends.

[The Angry One]

Goth Skunk wrote...

Ultimately, once the situation is rectified, aside from a few days/weeks worth of waiting, you will have lost nothing. Thus, your griping and whining is fruitless.

That's really what it boils down to for everyone here. That's what I and other have been trying to open your eyes to see. When all of this blows over, you will have lost nothing, and gained the precious DLC you crave.

So seriously, suck it up, buttercup.

You choose to ignore the principle of the issue, and how it impacts on future DLC/expansions for this and ME2.
That's too bad for you, really.

[Treavor647]

Goth Skunk wrote...

The Angry One wrote...

Of course you people can incessantly whine and moan about the people who dare to complain about this situation all you want, right?
The hypocrisy is so thick here I could slice it with a knife.

Ultimately, once the situation is rectified, aside from a few days/weeks worth of waiting, you will have lost nothing. Thus, your griping and whining is fruitless.

That's really what it boils down to for everyone here. That's what I and other have been trying to open your eyes to see. When all of this blows over, you will have lost nothing, and gained the precious DLC you crave.

So seriously, suck it up, buttercup.

Again, why attack her?   She is not going to "go away" jsut because you think you made your point.  Unless a Bioware rep comes in here and tell us the reason why the PC version of the RTO has not been released she is not going to stop asking the questions in a forum that was meant for that topic.  She is just going to come back and smart off right back to you.

[StainlessStyle]

thanks Feraele, total newbie so couldn't work out where to get the best info from!

[Gentleman Jack]

Hey I got bit by the update bug here with the 360 unintentionally too. Got on to play not expecting it then got really excited cause there was an update. then wouldn't let me download the dlc. came on to check briefly saw what was up. left the game alone came back on today and seen some people talking about deleting cache. can some one tell me where I can do that or give me an idea where a post is on it I really hate reading page after page of hate mail. I just really like to try to finish out my original game the way it is and finish unlocking my achievements with out problems. thanks all

[The Angry One]

Thin-skinned? Me? I could care less about the slings certain fanboys/girls throw my way.

I will however point out the ever classic "hey let's whine about the whiners!" because the hypocrisy amuses me greatly.

[Treavor647]

Feraele wrote...
We all have the right to post here...and I've been snarked at too.... many times..if her skin is too thin guess she shouldn't expose herself to other people's views.   

That does nothing but get the thread closed.   I for one want to know a few of those questions, but i cant ge that with the thread closed because people are too busy ****ing at each other and the moderators say to hell with this and lock the thread.