1868 réponses à ce sujet

[addiction21]

Hatchh wrote...

no one even bother buying the DLC. it has a **** storyline, useless items, very enclosed (no exploration at all, pretty much follow the gate path) and an easy boss fight. 30 mins for 5 bucks? i got ghost recon AW for that much...

Well ya, horrible 4 year old games do tend to drop in price...

[Nintraxas]

Ty guys for the update keep pushin hard. We know you guys are workin hard. Its why I stay a fan of Bioware.

[BraveFrankie]

Thank you DA;O team and bioware. Your rpgs are some of the best i have ever played that always put me on my toes for story line. Many thanks for working on this patch and i hope for sucess from all your games. i am looking forward to Mass Effect 2 as i already pre ordered the Special edition of the game. i usually spend more then a 100 hours plus on each of your games. i am proud to be a fan and great full im not late to play your games. Hope for the very best for dlc and your games

Death to all pigeons

Modifié par BraveFrankie, 20 janvier 2010 - 06:20 .

[squid5580]

Why isn't this posted on the 360 tech boards? You know for the people who are actually effected by this goof? Are we not worthy of any respect? Is it policy to take our money and run? Or do you not know how to copy and paste?

[Milliexis]

So you have people complaining that nothing is being posted and now we have a person who is complaining that it has been posted in the wrong area. Does it really matter there at least telling us whats happening now.

[stefan9]

squid5580 wrote...

Why isn't this posted on the 360 tech boards? You know for the people who are actually effected by this goof? Are we not worthy of any respect? Is it policy to take our money and run? Or do you not know how to copy and paste?

Its posted in the general section not pc,xbox 360 or ps3 section.

[Dr Bawbag]

Gunny5821 wrote...

I'm beating the confused drum, yet again!! Why not release the PC version???????????????

It seems the issues are with the consoles as I have yet to see a post referring to the PC platform as an issue.. Give the PC platform the DLC and continue to work on the consoles! It is just not fair to hold all platforms back, when one platform is and has been ready! Again a perception from all of the reading on the issues!

Gunny

Aye, an excellent idea.  I wonder why Bioware haven't thought about that little gem yet, huh?

Maybe, just maybe it's becasue if they were to release the pc version and the pc version were to contain a major bug then they [Bioware] would look even more incompetent than people are already accusing them of being.

Sometimes it's better to wait for something than to receive something that may screw your version over too.  Belts and braces and all that stuff.

[The Angry One]

Dr Bawbag wrote...

Aye, an excellent idea.  I wonder why Bioware haven't thought about that little gem yet, huh?

Maybe, just maybe it's becasue if they were to release the pc version and the pc version were to contain a major bug then they [Bioware] would look even more incompetent than people are already accusing them of being.

Sometimes it's better to wait for something than to receive something that may screw your version over too.  Belts and braces and all that stuff.

Please continue to ignore the fact that the 360 versions people bought before they were pulled and the leaked versions on PC work perfectly fine with no major bugs.
After all if you didn't you wouldn't have an argument.

[Rommel49]

MerinTB wrote...

But either ignored or misintepreted it, it would appear.

Point out where. It's easy to say "you're wrong", it's far harder to show why. Note that I've done that on every single point.

See that dig?  That's an insult, and insults are meant to belittle.  Belittling someone in a debate is meant to dismiss.  Dismissing someone is ignoring their argument.  That is an ad hominem regardless of what else you say.

Again, style over substance. It's only an adhominem when it's actually used as evidence against a position. If I insulted you and then used that as evidence against your position, then and only then would it qualify. Your entire bit about about an insult being used to dismiss an argument is a non sequitur, as well.

I could say "2+2 is 4.  2x2 is 4.  Math is pretty easy.  But for Joe Smoe math must be difficult since he's a retard."  The first two points are true.  The second is an opinion. The third is an ad hominem, regardless of what the first 3 points were.  The ad hominem doesn't make the first 3 points invalid, but it does weaken the argument overall by resorting to the logical fallacy.

Actually, what you just posted isn't an example of an ad hominem, it's an example of a non sequitur like above, as the final conclusion doesn't follow from the original preceding bits. Honestly, it's starting to look like you don't actually understand logical fallacies in general, since you can only cite one in areas where it doesn't actually fit. It'd only be an ad hominem if you were actually in a debate with Joe Schmoe over the subject and he claimed "2+2 doesn't = 4" and then said he was wrong because he was a retard.

Right.  We are in agreement.  I said it ON PAGE 5 - "an ad hominem isn't simply criticizing someone.  It's a logical fallacy because it derails or disrupts a discussion or debate without providing anything positive."
But dismissing someone with a label IS an ad hominem.  And "
but fanboyness is a form of
blindness, so paint me unsurprised if you're unable to see it" is directly an attempt to dismiss someone with a label, thus rendering their arguments pointless.

Thing is, "providing anything positive" is entirely subjective. That's nothing more than an appeal to motive.

While just using insults is not ad hominem, and we agree on that, we'll have to disagree on insults ever being "rhetorical flourishes."  They are mean-spirited and counter-productive in a meaningful debate.  They add nothing but animosity and resentment.

As I said, style over substance (or appeal to motive, both of them fit to an extent); "you're being mean" isn't a logical point. While it might be frowned upon in terms of etiquette, strictly speaking, logically there's nothing wrong with being as rude as one wants in a debate as long as the main point is valid.

I'm sorry, but I disagree.  Since it was never my intention to debate the point he was making but instead point out that his insulting people and dismissing them with a label meant to demean and disregard said "fanboys", there is no Style over Substance.  As I said, and you willfully ignored, "
you said I was arguing for style over substance
when I was actually arguing for substance over style."

You continue from the straw man that I was attempting to dispute the poster's argument.  Almost your entire rebuttal returns to this.  But I wasn't.  I was trying to point out, at first with sarcastic humor and then with more serious discussion, that the dismissive name-calling is counter-productive.  When my attempting to make that point itself became counter-productive (as this discussion has crossed over into by now) I stopped pushing the point.

I only pointed out that the main thrust of his argument went unanswered in my last reply, to say I grabbed onto a strawman and distorted your point from the beginning is somewhat disingenuous. I never claimed you trying to dispute his argument, to be frank, you sniped and then completely ignored his argument. That's why I say Style over Substance, you essentially claimed from the beginning (and still do) that the presentation of an argument is a measure of its strength or weakness. That's logically fallacious on its face.

Again, it was never my intent to dismiss his argument.  Only to point out the fallacy he was using and how it weakened his argument.
Pointing out someone's use of abusive langauge and logical fallacy is not "style over substance", it's about substance.  Your claim that insults can be "rhetorical flourishes" is the definition of style over substance - rhetoric itself is style over substance.  I was looking at the logical fallacies, which are NEVER productive in a discussion, and calling them out.
Presentation of an argument suggests I'm looking for word choice, paragraph length, opening and closing, that kind of thing.  I wasn't - I was looking at arguments that are logical fallacies.
And I really believe that it should be self-evident that "but fanboyness is a form of blindness, so paint me unsurprised if you're unable to see it" is clearly an attempt to dismiss a group of people as "fanboys" and therefor "blind" to the truth.  That's not a style issue, Rommel49, no matter how you paint it.

This right here pretty much proves you don't understand the Style over Substance fallacy in question either. You also included a strawman for good measure; where did I claim insults as rhetorical flourishes added to the validity of an argument? That's right, nowhere. If I said they added to the weight of an argument, then you'd be right, you aren't. The only one who's argued that the presentation or delivery of an argument is a measure of its strength is well, you.

Further, presentation doesn't simply confine itself to word choice, paragraph length, etc. Despite that, I'd point out that even under your own criteria for what you think qualifies as presentation (and thus Style over Substance), word choice still fits; as you consider "abusive language" (which is obviously word choice, and entirely subjective to boot) a mark against an argument. Q.E.D.

Regardless, I'm done cluttering the board. Anything new, feel free to send via PM.

Modifié par Rommel49, 20 janvier 2010 - 11:54 .

[Valcutio]

Victor, I just wanted to say that you're doing a great job communicating with the community. Ignore the mean-spirited people as best you can. They exist on EVERY forum and their attitude is not a reflection of your work here but of their own miserableness.

[Kurokenshi]

Valcutio wrote...

Victor, I just wanted to say that you're doing a great job communicating with the community. Ignore the mean-spirited people as best you can. They exist on EVERY forum and their attitude is not a reflection of your work here but of their own miserableness.

I disagree with your statement. I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore your so called "mean-spirited" people in fact it is those people that should be listened to the most. What your saying is Bioware should only take in the good feedback. As a company Bioware should take into account all forms of community feedback wether good or bad. Addressing these questions will strengthen the fanbase and improve communication with fanbase imo.

Modifié par Kurokenshi, 20 janvier 2010 - 12:17 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

This thread has become a lot more pleasant since the majority of the trolls have gone away.

Yes because expecting to be kept updated for an item you already paid for that has missed 2-3 dates already = trolling

[The Angry One]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Wesley Wyndam Price wrote...

This thread has become a lot more pleasant since the majority of the trolls have gone away.

Yes because expecting to be kept updated for an item you already paid for that has missed 2-3 dates already = trolling

Troll = disagreeing with the party line. How dare we!

[Dr Bawbag]

Kurokenshi wrote...

Valcutio wrote...

Victor, I just wanted to say that you're doing a great job communicating with the community. Ignore the mean-spirited people as best you can. They exist on EVERY forum and their attitude is not a reflection of your work here but of their own miserableness.

I disagree with your statement. I don't think it would be a good idea to ignore your so called "mean-spirited" people in fact it is those people that should be listened to the most. What your saying is Bioware should only take in the good feedback. As a company Bioware should take into account all forms of community feedback wether good or bad. Addressing these questions will strengthen the fanbase and improve communication with fanbase imo.

The only people that deserve further answers are those people that have already paid for the DLC, which they haven't yet received.  If those aforementioned people aren't happy with the offical response and aren't willing to hold off until a later date, then they should be given a refund.  Other than that I can't see the problem.  It's not as if these things don't happen within the gaming industry.

It's hilarious the number of gamers that suddenly become armchair developers when things go a bit ******-up.  Not directed at you btw.

Modifié par Dr Bawbag, 20 janvier 2010 - 02:43 .

[addiction21]

Theres a party? Really wheres the cake then im hungry.



Honestly tho yelling troll does nothing but continue the useless bickering. If you believe someone is a troll just ignore them and give them nothing to feed of off.

[Abriael_CG]

Dr Bawbag wrote...
The only people that deserve further answers are those people that have already paid for the DLC, which they haven't yet received.  If those aforementioned people aren't happy with the offical response and aren't willing to hold off until a later date, then they should be given a refund.  Other than that I can't see the problem.  It's not as if these things don't happen within the gaming industry.

Actually refunds are an extremely bad idea in this kind of "points" programs. It creates a precedent on something that's clearly stated "non refundable" and it opens the way to all kinds of claims in the future.
It's much easier to just communicate better.

It's hilarious the number of gamers that suddenly become armchair developers when things go a bit ******-up.  Not directed at you btw.

And it's hilarious the number of gamers that feel that not being a developer means not having the right to voice an opinion... :innocent:

[Hrodberht]

Addicted2Anime wrote...

Argia wrote...

Adicted2Anime, supposedly... if you stash stuff in the chest at warden's keep early in the game, and revisit the keep latter, the gear supposedly levels up for you... so for example, a grey iron item might be dragon-bone latter in the game... or so i've heard... never tested it though.

Something like this happened to me, I think. When I first got the Warden Commander Armor Set I wasn't strong enough to wear it so I put it in the chest. Some time later I noticed all three pieces to be different tiers and other times two pieces would match and the third would not. On a whim yesterday I took all three pieces out of the chest. Before I took them out, when I looked at them in the chest, two pieces were tier 4, and one was tier 5 (I think. It could have been tier 3 and 4). However, when they ended up in my list they were all tier 6.

According to Dragon Age Wikia this is what is happening...

//quote//
The Warden Commander Armor Set set is a powerful set of massive plate armor that scales with The Warden's level. For example, the set is made from Viridium (Tier 4) when it is found at level 9. When it is found at level 18, it will be made of Dragonbone (Tier 7) and have much better stats.

* Now on the PC The Warden can only be upgraded by selling it to Mikhael Dryden

* On the console version the armor can be upgraded by putting it in the party storage chest then leaving and returning.

Bugs

* In the Xbox version, the set is currently bugged, and no Set Bonus will be given if the wearer is the Warden. Only companions will receive the Set Bonus once fully equipped.
* Cure: In the Xbox version, you can still get the set bonus with the main character wearing the set. All you need to do is to buy the Grey Warden Helmet from Mikhael, put it on with rest of the pieces and receive the bonus.

\\\\\\\\quote\\\\\\\\

Does anyone know if this leveling trick works on all armor, only specific pieces, or only full sets? Also, does this work for weapons or anything else?

If this works on anything (or at least armor) it would be a great way to make a little extra cash. Put things you intend to sell in the chest, leave, come back, reclaim the leveled items, and sell them for extra cash.

Hrm, I've also had the warden gear level up (on the PC) by selling it to the dwarf in the party camp.

[Dr Bawbag]

Addiction, your aunt requested that you get no cake. She let drop on here a week or so ago you can't handle your sugar. Up to all hours zipping around the house, keeping everyone awake and won't settle down until you've had yer arse leathered.

Modifié par Dr Bawbag, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:43 .

[Satanic Hamster]

HAH.



They finally updated the storefront to say that the DLC is "Coming Soon."

[Goth Skunk]

Abriael_CG wrote...


And it's hilarious the number of gamers that feel that not being a developer means not having the right to voice an opinion... :innocent:

The right to voice an opinion is universal. However, if said opinion is coming from someone that has not worked in game development, it doesn't hold much water in my eyes.

Anyone can be a critic. But it takes a special blend of talent, skill, and know-how to create.

edit: bloody hell, can't fix my [b] tag in my sig for this post.

Modifié par Goth Skunk, 20 janvier 2010 - 03:54 .

[Dr Bawbag]

Abriael_CG wrote...

Dr Bawbag wrote...
The only people that deserve further answers are those people that have already paid for the DLC, which they haven't yet received.  If those aforementioned people aren't happy with the offical response and aren't willing to hold off until a later date, then they should be given a refund.  Other than that I can't see the problem.  It's not as if these things don't happen within the gaming industry.

Actually refunds are an extremely bad idea in this kind of "points" programs. It creates a precedent on something that's clearly stated "non refundable" and it opens the way to all kinds of claims in the future.
It's much easier to just communicate better.

It's hilarious the number of gamers that suddenly become armchair developers when things go a bit ******-up.  Not directed at you btw.

And it's hilarious the number of gamers that feel that not being a developer means not having the right to voice an opinion... :innocent:

Of course everyone is entitled to air their opinion, i never even insinuated no one is entitled to air an opinion. You're just twisting my words for your own ends now.

However, i don't think the same people posting the same things countless times, in two seperate threads is very productive, especially when all they're doing is posting the same assumptions over and over again.  If anything, all it's gonna acheive is the thread being locked or overlooked as i don't believe for a second any person is going read through a whole thread of repetitive crap.

Some people are also banging about how Bioware seem to care more about their console customers than their PC counterparts, whilst totally ignoring the fact most console users are still waiting patiently for the game proper update, an update PC owners recieved a few weeks ago.

As things stand some of us are waiting for a piece of DLC whilst others are still waiting for some of the basics to be fixed.  So everyone is in the same boat to some extent.

[Abriael_CG]

Goth Skunk wrote...
The right to voice an opinion is universal. However, if said opinion is coming from someone that has not worked in game development, it doesn't hold much water in my eyes.

It's not like game development is a closed chaste that accepts no adepts. You actually do not know who in this forum has any experience in game development or marketing, or in paralel markets like gaming journalism (that do give you an insight on game development, given how much contact you have with developers), or similar markets that work more or less in the same way.
Just an hint.

Also, this thread is in large part about communication, and one definitely doesn't need to be a game developer to have quite a lot of insight on customer satisfaction, marketing and communication. Actually, most game developers (IE: the coders) have absolutely no experience in communication, and are plainly disastrous at it. The story of gaming is full of programmers that posted on some forums something they shouldn't have and caused horrible PR debacles.

Dr Bawbag wrote...

Some people are also banging about how
Bioware seem to care more about their console customers than their PC
counterparts, whilst totally ignoring the fact most console users are
still waiting patiently for the game proper update, an update PC owners
recieved a few weeks ago.

PC gamers normally take a backseat to console ones in the eyes of developers for almost every game out there. For once the PC version is the "lead version". It's quite obvious that PC gamers aren't happy to see their own releases take a backseat to console ones as usual.
We were openly promised that console development wouldn't have influenced the PC version, when it was time to do damage control to keep PC gamers happy on the announcement of the delay of the game to extend it to consoles.
Most people simply aren't keen on broken promises, or promises that they perceive broken.

Modifié par Abriael_CG, 20 janvier 2010 - 04:09 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Goth Skunk wrote...

Abriael_CG wrote...


And it's hilarious the number of gamers that feel that not being a developer means not having the right to voice an opinion... :innocent:

The right to voice an opinion is universal. However, if said opinion is coming from someone that has not worked in game development, it doesn't hold much water in my eyes.

Anyone can be a critic. But it takes a special blend of talent, skill, and know-how to create.

edit: bloody hell, can't fix my [b] tag in my sig for this post.

You don't need to work in the industry to have followed it long enough and had enough experience with other situations of this sort (and it happens alot, especially with MMO's) to know what to usually expect when it comes to support and information when said situations happen.

I think its great that they have commented on fixing the 360 version's title update and aparently will be putting changes in motion to keep it from happening in the future. Thats a definate great thing and I'm happy for it. In the same sense though being outright vague about the status of the PC version does nothing but fuel speculation be it right or wrong.

Most of us understand that if there is a contract in place with Microsoft that PC DLC can not and will not release before 360 DLC, that Bioware is most likely not at liberty to say so. Still with that being said its a total contradiction to what the PC user base was originally lead to believe that the console skus would not affect the PC sku. First the 8 month delay to launch alongside the console versions (mostly prolly to due with EA not wanting to market the same title twice) Now waiting for DLC just due to issues with a 360 title update that may or may not have anything to do with said DLC at all.

It really doesn't take a rocket scientist nor personal experience in the industry to piece together what is most likely going on here. 

[Goth Skunk]

Abriael_CG wrote...


Also, this thread is in large part about communication, and one definitely doesn't need to be a game developer to have quite a lot of insight on customer satisfaction, marketing and communication. Actually, most game developers (IE: the coders) have absolutely no experience in communication, and are plainly disastrous at it. The story of gaming is full of programmers that posted on some forums something they shouldn't have and caused horrible PR debacles.

Bill Cosby said...

"I don't know what the secret to success is, but the secret to failure is trying to please everybody."

Abraham Lincoln said...

"You can please some of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, all of the people some of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."

[Abriael_CG]

Pleasing everybody is impossible. Pleasing as many people as possible is possible AND the critical mission of every company that works to sell a product or a service to the public.



The gaming market, like almost ANY and EVERY market in the world, is made by the 50% of communication and marketing. That's what makes very average games and systems sell more than awesome games badly marketed or with a small marketing budget.