32 réponses à ce sujet

[John_G]

Hi!

I have played a dual weapon warrior far into the game, but now im beging to wonder if dual weapons really is a good choise. After fighting guys with heavy armor, I realise you get less damage done with dual weapon, since you have to "pass through" the opponents armor twice with two weapons, and not only once with a 2h:ed weapon.

For example:
You hit a enemy with two weapons (each 30 damage) who have 20 armor. That means you get  30-20 + (30-20) damage done, which leaves you with 20 damage. But say you instead hit the opponent with a fairly equal 2h weapon with like 50 damage, you only have to pass through the armor once, which means that you instead get 30 damage output (50-20=30).

So my question is: do I have wrong? Should I rebuild my character for 2h weapons instead?

[dkjestrup]

Hell no, dual wielding does far more damage than 2h, both single target (dual daggers + momentum + dual striking + precise striking + haste + Berserk = profit) or AoE (dual axes + high strength + taunt + whirlwind + dual weapon sweep = profit).



2h warriors are okay, but in a different league.

[John_G]

Why dual daggers?



Hm is my character a "failure" without the berserk class? He is a templar and champion (str. 48, dex 39, lvl 19). His weapons dont always get through the enemy´s armor, and when it do it seem to be pretty less then for a 2:ed weapon (though I use momentum and dual abilities like cripple).



I dont understand it, want a character (even if he has heigh dex. and heigh speed) do less since they get to cross the oppponents armor twice?

[Carodej]

IIRC, Berserk gives 8 extra damage per hit. Hitting most often with dual daggers makes this bonus most effective.

Dual daggers speed definitely maximizes damage runes. Three grandmaster damage runes in a weapon is 15 extra points of damage. So daggers maximize damage runes. Also note that 2H special talent attacks (like the two "Sunders" talents which actually give two hits on opponents) do NOT count the runes.

Also, different weapons have different base armor penetration. Daggers aren't the best, but they are far from the worst in this category.

Also, DW talents require a certain amount of dex. Since dex increases damage on daggers (not to mention defense), any points you put into a DW dagger wielder user are utilized more fully.

Modifié par Carodej, 19 janvier 2010 - 08:34 .

[Giles_Warrior_Champion]

Im currently playing a DW Warrior and im at lvl 15 and very close to 16 and with morrigan being a complete DPS mage i still do 54% of the party damage I have StarFang and Topsider's Honor for my DW. Definitely better DPS then the 2hd warrior i had before...if you do DW and want to use swords or axes or maces make sure you get your 36 dexterity then put every other point into str leave everything else at its base stats because they are unimportant for DPS role

[dkjestrup]

John_G wrote...

Why dual daggers?

'Cause they're the best weapons in the game?

[Serlinra]

Giles_Warrior_Champion wrote...

Im currently playing a DW Warrior and im at lvl 15 and very close to 16 and with morrigan being a complete DPS mage i still do 54% of the party damage.

give morrigan Virulent Walking Bomb  and nuke with single target spells or use cone of cold to freeze as many as you can into a tight bunch and nuke that single target and kill it - ''pooff'' no more mobs even worked on a couple of yellow mobs if you get lucky, tho watch out for the FF damage ^^ and nothing should beat the DPS for a mage you have with you on a permanent basis..

[Haplose]

2H warriors are good, but strictly DPS speaking are outperformed by Dual-wielders - by a large margin. The damage per hit doesn't increase that much and the attack speed is MUCH slower. This is magnified by Runes, Poisons, magic damage buffs (Flame, Frost, Telekinetic Weapons), Berserk, Blood Frenzy and similar being static damage boosts, addind the same amount of damage regardless of weapon speed. And these bonuses can get pretty silly. Flame weapons alone can reach near 40 damage per hit on a cursed enemy. To add insult to injury, these effects do not trigger on active combat skills - and 2H Warriors rely on them the most, since their standard auto-attack speed is just too slow (and they have some cool moves: Sunder Arms (double attack), Sunder Armour (double attack), 2H Sweep).

So DPS-wise the dual-weapon warrior wins hands down. Well, at least untill the dual-wielder gets stunned or knocked-down. Where such effects are frequent, the 2H Warrior with his Indomitable talent really shines.
If you also make him a Templar with 100% Magic Resistance gear, a 2H Warrior is freaking unstoppable. Like a moving mountain of muscles. Immune to stuns, knockdowns, magic. Only grabs and overhelms can immobilize him - but this doesn't happen much.

A 2H Warrior also has much better crowd-control abilities. 2H Sweep is an AOE damage that knocks down everyone around you. Stunning Blows mean frequent stuns on critical hits. If you also pick Champion and Superiority WarCry, most enemies will spend most of the fights on their asses.

It's just a very different playstyle. Dual-wielding is all about fast and furious kills, 2H fighting is slower, but about being in control of the battlefield, disabling enemies and chopping them down as they lay helpless on their backs - meanwhile being immune to enemy crowd control.

Modifié par Haplose, 19 janvier 2010 - 09:58 .

[Ash_VII]

I just started My DW warrior He's possibly going to use a sword and a dagger I love the duncan look, Ive unlocked all the DW tallents and i have 36 dex and I placed 3 points to Cunning for 16. (Just for the rpg element) The rest will go towards STR now



What sword and dagger should i go for?

Also what specialisations i was thinking beserker and champion? or reavor or templar?



Also is the grey warden commander armour best to use for him or the wade's one?

[-Conspirator]

Starfang/Topsider's Honor and Rose's Thorn/Cadash Dagger (forgot name)

[Ash_VII]

-Conspirator wrote...

Starfang/Topsider's Honor and Rose's Thorn/Cadash Dagger (forgot name)

Where are the location of these? i think starfang is at wardens keep?

[BlackVader]

Ash_VII wrote...

I just started My DW warrior He's possibly going to use a sword and a dagger I love the duncan look, Ive unlocked all the DW tallents and i have 36 dex and I placed 3 points to Cunning for 16. (Just for the rpg element) The rest will go towards STR now

You don't really need the 3 points in cunning whe on you get the fade bonus points. Also, if you don't take DW Mastery for dual-wielding sword or axes, the 36 dex are a bit wasted.

What sword and dagger should i go for?

Dagger: Rose's Thorn, handsdown.
Sword: Keening Blade or Starfang. Or Veshialle, but that's an axe, obviously.

Also what specialisations i was thinking beserker and champion? or reavor or templar?

Definitely Berserker. The second one doesn't matter all that much. Oh, but don't pick Reaver and expect a sgnificant jump in damage. The spec is more about utility than DPS.

Also is the grey warden commander armour best to use for him or the wade's one?

With sword+dagger, you't most likely auto-attacking with momentum most of the time so you ave little use for the stamina-reg and lower fatigue of Wade's. I'd go with warden commanders if only for the +crt damage. You might even consider not weareing the whole set. Especially the Gauntlets aren't that good and the set-bonus won't excactly help your DPS. It's too bad that the best offensive Gloves in the agme are restricted to Rogues.

[BlackVader]

Ash_VII wrote...

-Conspirator wrote...

Starfang/Topsider's Honor and Rose's Thorn/Cadash Dagger (forgot name)

Where are the location of these? i think starfang is at wardens keep?

Starfang is Warden's Keep, yes. Topsider's can be found in the Deep Roads, but it's inferior to Starfang or Keening Blade. Rose's Thorn can be bought in Orzammar and the Cadash Dagger is from Stone Prisoner DLC.

[Ash_VII]

Thanks Blackvadar i forgot about the fade and its bonus might re role it later, Might choose templar just for its anti mage bonus, thanks again.

[-Conspirator]

For obtaining Starfang you need to encounter a random event first. The "superman" scene.

And I forgot you are a warrior, so yes, Keening blade is better.

[krsboss]

...as the original OP states, a two-handed weapon can do more damage in a single hit than any other weapon, not to mention that the best weapon in the game, Chasind Great Maul, is a two-handed weapon. Taking into consideration armor & armor penetration, a two-handed weapon can do more damage to a high armor target than two weapons wielded dually.



I am currently playing a two-handed weapon user and my DPS 'on the sheet' are on par with other character's I've had of similar level both sword & shield and dual wielding. He is hitting big, but slowly, yes the extra rune damage may be lacking, but there's nothing like easily finishing off a boss with a 200+ damage Final Blow!



Sunder Arms & Sunder Armor are impossibly useful Talents for a 2h warrior as not only do they hit twice. but they start from the instant that you activate them. In this fashion you artificially boost the attack speed! ...not to mention 2h warriors having 2 auto-crit Talents that can also be activated to boost your attack speed!



...if it was possible to play DA:O multiplayer and there were PvP options I'd much rather take a 2h warrior to a fight than a dual wielder...pummel strike + final blow = win!

[krsboss]

...additional...



...using daggers allows focusing on dexterity which increases defense in addition to any bonuses increasing strength provides. So from a survivability point of view, a dexterity based dual wielder is going to be better off than a strength based two-hander.



However that was not the question posed by the OP!

[jenambus]

What is this fade bonus you speak of?

[Ash_VII]

The sloth demon in the circle of mages quest line sends you to the fade there you can gain essence that will be able to place against your attributes i beleive theres 5+ cunning there i forgot all about it il re role this tonight!

[LarryFine]

krsboss wrote...

...additional...

...using daggers allows focusing on dexterity which increases defense in addition to any bonuses increasing strength provides. So from a survivability point of view, a dexterity based dual wielder is going to be better off than a strength based two-hander.

However that was not the question posed by the OP!

Not necessarily.  The OP is a warrior meaning he's more than likely going to be using the heavier armor in the game which has a str requirement.  With this being the case he's going to have to split his points between str and dex anyway so going dagger doesn't make sense.  The str requirement for massive armor is higher than the dex requirement to wield two full sized weapons so it would make greater sense for the op to take dual mastery and wield 2 full sized swords instead of daggers.  This allows him to keep his dex at 36 and simply continue adding to his strength which is already going to be higher. 

[Britanus]

dkjestrup wrote...

John_G wrote...

Why dual daggers?

'Cause they're the best weapons in the game?

Best is figurative.

They're the fatest, therefore, you get the most hits off.

Personally, I think it all depends on how you want to play.  Having played a DW warrior, and now building up a 2h warrior, I'm having a lot more fun with the 2h Warrior.  Indomitable, is invaluable, and at times a life saver, in most cases.

I'm not there yet, but I also think Final Blow (zerker talent), will do more damage with a 2h.  My current build is Str to 36 (+2 from zerker) for blood dragon armor, and rest Willpower.  I don't have final blow yet, but I think since it's based off your main hand weapon, the number will be a LOT higher if you use a 2h weapon.

[krsboss]

LarryFine wrote...

Not necessarily.  The OP is a warrior meaning he's more than likely going to be using the heavier armor in the game which has a str requirement.  With this being the case he's going to have to split his points between str and dex anyway so going dagger doesn't make sense.  The str requirement for massive armor is higher than the dex requirement to wield two full sized weapons so it would make greater sense for the op to take dual mastery and wield 2 full sized swords instead of daggers.  This allows him to keep his dex at 36 and simply continue adding to his strength which is already going to be higher.  

It's pretty easy to gain a lot of items that will give +2 to strength, Key to the City is free, Harvest Festival RIng or Lloyd's Ring are also free, Helm of Honnleath, Cadash Stompers, Shadow of the Empire armor for 20 sovereigns (ignoring +3 strength from Blood Dragon Plate!), Anduril's Blessing for 100 sovereigns (or Ornate Leather belt from Old Tegrin for +1 strength at 10 silvers)...

...that's +12 strength for 120 sovereigns or +11 strength for ~20 sovereigns...so you can actually get away with 30 strength to be able to equip the most heaviest armors around (requiring 42 strength)...being able to remove inventory items afterwards or switch out an equipped item to equip what you need.

If the OP's intention is to wear the heaviest armor and still want mad DPS and survuivability they are best off rolling up a sword and shield berserker/champion, giving them 30 strength, putting all the rest into dexterity...you'll end up with ~170+ defense, 40+ armor, 130+ attack and hitting with 70+ per hit.....

[John_G]

If the OP's intention is to wear the heaviest armor and still want mad DPS and survuivability they are best off rolling up a sword and shield berserker/champion, giving them 30 strength, putting all the rest into dexterity...you'll end up with ~170+ defense, 40+ armor, 130+ attack and hitting with 70+ per hit.....

Yes cool, like Logain ^^ I might consider that actually, since my DW warrior seem to have difficult reach through heavy armor guys with his daggers.

[DKJaigen]

@krsboss



im sry bro but your wrong about 2 handers being better then dual wield on heavy armor targets. a 30 % white damage increase is simply way to big of an advantage and ad some weapon enchants and dual wield will always come on top. furthermore dual wield is very stam dependant dual wield isnt.

[LarryFine]

krsboss wrote...

LarryFine wrote...

Not necessarily.  The OP is a warrior meaning he's more than likely going to be using the heavier armor in the game which has a str requirement.  With this being the case he's going to have to split his points between str and dex anyway so going dagger doesn't make sense.  The str requirement for massive armor is higher than the dex requirement to wield two full sized weapons so it would make greater sense for the op to take dual mastery and wield 2 full sized swords instead of daggers.  This allows him to keep his dex at 36 and simply continue adding to his strength which is already going to be higher.  

If the OP's intention is to wear the heaviest armor and still want mad DPS and survuivability they are best off rolling up a sword and shield berserker/champion, giving them 30 strength, putting all the rest into dexterity...you'll end up with ~170+ defense, 40+ armor, 130+ attack and hitting with 70+ per hit.....

I played a sns champion templar and he did have the greatest survivability as there were many fights where he was the last man member of my team standing.  His screen said he had a damage of almost 60 but I saw mostly 40's out of him.  He still lead my team with 30% of the damage output.  Sten only had a damage of around 70 although he didn't have a top tier 2h weapon. 

My dual wielding warrior with 31 dex and less than 24 str dual wielding the oatkeeper and  tier 2 thorn of dead god's already has 26 damage on his main hand and 22 on his offhand.  I fought the revenant in the circle tower with Leliana, Wynne, and Alistair.  Wynne was  instructed to heal when a party members health  dropped below 75%.  Alistair managed to die in the time it took me to circle behind the revenant and my dual wielding warrior tanked the revenant into oblivion.  The circle is the first place that I've gone this time so its probably easier but during this same fight with my sns warrior in my first playthrough with the same team the revenant killed everyone except Wynne and Wynne spent the time running around in circles until her revive spell was off its cool down because it initially killed alistair and I revived him only to have it squash him again and my pc as well.

Maybe I'm a better player or maybe its the fact that instead of raising my str first I've focused purely on raising my dex first but my dw warrior is a monster.  Once he hits level 12 and gets 2 full sized weapons I'm going to be very interested in seeing how he matures.  To this point I haven't take a single warrior talent either.  My toon hits level 9  next so he will get dual wielding expert then he'll get the 3rd talent in the berserker line at 10.  At 11 I'll give him precise striking and at 12 dual weapon mastery.  Momentum + Precise striking + haste with the dmg  he does now I'll admit I get the shivers just thinking about it.