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[In Exile]

In the DA2 DLC Legacy, we meet Corypheus, an allegedly ancient darkspawn. Whether or not it's right to call him a darkspawn, the common theory is that he's really one of the ancient Tevinter magisters that stepped into the Golden City that (allegedly) led to the creation of the darkspawn and the start of the blights in Thedas. 

After we kill Corypheus, we get a (strong and blatant) hint that he jumped bodies into a Grey Warden who had been assisting Hawke. This appears, at first, to look like what we are told the archdemon does in DA:O, i.e., jump into the body of a darkspawn when its body is killed.

Corypheus, however, breaks the cardinal rule we're told the archdemon has to obey: leaping into a body that has a soul. If the archdemon leaps into that body with a soul - a Grey Warden - the archdemon and Warden ostensibly die. This is how the Wardens end blights. Either Warden Corypheus can jump into ostensibly has a soul, since they were alive and well when the battle started. If the Corypheus were like an archdemon, he should have gone poof. He doesn't.

Corypheus, like the archdemon, can control darkspawn. His power over the taint seems greater. While we see in DA:O that the archdemon can reach out and touch the Wardens' minds (e.g. via dreams), it seems limited to that. There's no mind control. Corypheus, however, seems to be able to directly control not just the tainted ghouls but (at least, allegedly) the Wardens. Codex entries suggest that he can influence sorrounding areas (such as Kirkwall). 

We have, in other words, two areas - the control over the taint and the co-existence with souls - where Corypheus seems to stand above the archdemon. The Chantry's narrative over the blight is that the archdemons are its key and its controllers. But Corypheus seems to have all of the powers that an archdemon has over the taint, but on steroids. 

If the archdemons are supposed to be gods, then why is a "mere" mortal like Corypheus able to stand above them? 

I don't have answers (do I do have my own theory), but it seems interesting to speculate. Thoughts? 

[caradoc2000]

Corypheus is dead. The only jumping being done is some forumites jumping to weird conclusions.

[Sifr]

My person pet theory is that the Old Gods were the ones responsible for bringing the corruption to the Golden City, something Corypheus alludes to in Legacy, but were cast down by some force into the Stone before they could be corrupted themselves.

As a result, the Tevinter Magisters who travelled to the Golden City have a greater connection to the Taint as they were first to contract it, since we know that the Darkspawn predate the creation of Archdemons.

It's therefore not concievable that Corypheus-level Darkspawn have powers in excess of those possessed by Archdemons, as they themselves are the true progenitors of the Darkspawn.

As I speculated on the Kal-Sharok thread, we often see five Magisters depicted corrupting the heavens, so with Corypheus as one of them, and the Architect as possible second, we have at least Three Magisters potentially unaccounted for.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't think he has as much power as an Archdemon. Larius says that he only mimics the Archdemon's call. He doesn't seem to be able to control the same amount of darkspawn as Dumat did, otherwise the First Blight wouldn't have ended after the Battle of the Silent Plains. His mind control powers aren't absolute either. He couldn't control any of the wardens once he was awake, and his call to Janeka seems to have been an unconscious instinct. And since Larius could resist, despite being further tainted it seems like her being unaware of what was happening was a large part of it. His influence might not be exclusively due to the taint. If he can indeed affect the surrounding region, it wouldn't be through the taint. The range of his call appears to be much more limited than an Archdemon, Grey Wardens can hear them anywhere. It's no the Chantry narrative that the Archdemons are the key to Blights, it's the Grey Wardens who discovered this.

As to how he could survive while transferring into anther body, I figure this has to do with the fact that he was a human and not an Old God. We've seen examples of spirits living in bodies with souls with Anders and Wynne, so I think that a human being a less powerful being doesn't need as specific as a vessel. The transfer of bodies may not even have anything to do with the Archdemon's because they automatically find another darkspawn to use as a vessel. They only transfer into Grey Wardens if a Warden kills them. But Hawke isn't a Warden, and Corypheus specifically picked LArius/Janeka to escape through. There were any number of other darkspawn still hiding in the prison, but he didn't try to use any of them to escape through.

[BioWareM0d13]

Corypheus has some interesting abilities to be sure, but I'm not sure he necessarily ranks as being more powerful than an archdemon. After all he was a servant of Dumat, rather than the other way around. Some of his dialogue also implies a superstitious awe of the archdemon. "Dumat! Lord! Tell me. What waking dream is this?"  "Dumat? Have you forsaken me? I am your faithful servant..."

caradoc2000 wrote...

Corypheus is dead. The only jumping being done is some forumites jumping to weird conclusions.

No one is jumping to conclusions there. It was heavily implied that Corypheus possessed the Grey Warden. It wasn't even subtle.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 27 août 2013 - 06:03 .

[Lord Issa]

I think Corypheus, by dint of being a mage, is far more versatile than an Archdemon. However, in terms of sheer power I'm pretty sure the Archdemon would utterly overwhelm him.

Also, the belief that the Archdemons are completely dead has been cast into doubt, what with the hints in Legacy that Dumat may be in some form alive.

Modifié par Lord Issa, 27 août 2013 - 06:05 .

[caradoc2000]

Han Shot First wrote...

No one is jumping to conclusions there. It was heavily implied that Corypheus possessed the Grey Warden. It wasn't even subtle.

I only saw something that could vaguely be interpreted as possession by a very vivid imagination.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No it was definitely blatant. Both Larius and Janeka adopted Corypheus' speech pattern while eerie music played. Both of them also shuddered inexplicably as Corypheus was killed, and he even seemed to pick smile or at least look at them for a second beforehand. I'm not even sure how you would write it more obvious to the audience without spelling it out to Hawke.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 27 août 2013 - 07:06 .

[Sifr]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I only saw something that could vaguely be interpreted as possession by a very vivid imagination.

So, you witness Corypheus' eyes briefly turning black just before Hawke delivers the killing blow, while Janeka/Larius behind them staggers backwards, followed by them adopting a slasher smile as they leave... and assume that it probably didn't mean a thing?

Makes sense.



But back on topic;

Does anyone wonder what would have happened if we'd encountered Corypheus and the Architect during the Blight, with an Archdemon active? We know the Architect has been around for over 30 years, but we don't know if his powers were nerfed when the Archdemon entered the picture?

Modifié par Sifr1449, 27 août 2013 - 06:57 .

[Taleroth]

Architect mostly just seems to have a power of presence. That is, he's the biggest, baddest darkspawn in most rooms, so they follow him. The hive mind connection of the Archdemon would probably override that a bit, yeah.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus was active for the entirety of the First Blight, the wardens never noticed him until after the death of Dumat. Although the codex hints that maybe even back then his sanity wasn't all there anymore.

[Fast Jimmy]

In Exile wrote...

Corypheus, however, breaks the cardinal rule we're told the archdemon has to obey: leaping into a body that has a soul. If the archdemon leaps into that body with a soul - a Grey Warden - the archdemon and Warden ostensibly die. This is how the Wardens end blights. Either Warden Corypheus can jump into ostensibly has a soul, since they were alive and well when the battle started. If the Corypheus were like an archdemon, he should have gone poof. He doesn't.

Corypheus, like the archdemon, can control darkspawn. His power over the taint seems greater. While we see in DA:O that the archdemon can reach out and touch the Wardens' minds (e.g. via dreams), it seems limited to that. There's no mind control. Corypheus, however, seems to be able to directly control not just the tainted ghouls but (at least, allegedly) the Wardens. Codex entries suggest that he can influence sorrounding areas (such as Kirkwall). 

We have, in other words, two areas - the control over the taint and the co-existence with souls - where Corypheus seems to stand above the archdemon. The Chantry's narrative over the blight is that the archdemons are its key and its controllers. But Corypheus seems to have all of the powers that an archdemon has over the taint, but on steroids. 

If the archdemons are supposed to be gods, then why is a "mere" mortal like Corypheus able to stand above them? 

I don't have answers (do I do have my own theory), but it seems interesting to speculate. Thoughts? 

Well, let's look at this from another angle. Yes, the Archdemons are (allegedly) gods, corrupted by the Taint. In that regard, they should be incredibly powerful and destructive. When an Archdemon is awakened, it becomes corrupted, warping land, plant and animal into death or deformation. The Archdemon can also control entire legions of darkspawn, and can even draw them to their presence by their mere subconscious pull of its existence. 

In that regard, it would seem the Archdemons have a great deal more power than Corypheus.

So where does Corypheus excel? In his mastery over the taint.

Now... why would THAT be?

Could it be because Corypheus encountered the original source of the taint in the Black City? He touched the very essence of what gave birth to both the darkspawn and the Archdemons. The Archdemon's are touching a second-or-third level of taint transmission - from a darkspawn born from a Broodmother, generations removed from the event of the Black City itself.

I'd say Coryhpeus is indeed powerful as a human Tevineter magister, but his ability to manipulate not only the darkspawn, but the Grey Wardens as well speaks of his complete mastery of the taint, not that he is inherently more powerful than an Archdemon. 

Let's take that one step further - the Archdemon can control Darkspawn, but not Grey Wardens. Yet Corypheus can - he can make them obey his every whim, causing them to abandon their principles and belief, even dying for their new cause. So... what if the reason the Archdemon dies when its soul collides with a Grey Warden's is that the Warden is fighitng it? The soul of the Warden would rebel against oblivion, causing the destruction of both the Archdemon as well as the Warden.

But if Corypheus can command the Wardens to die for him... why would the soul of the Warden struggle? It would passively submit and allow itself to be destroyed, allowing Corypheus to live.




Now you see... the reason Corypheus was locked away. He is worse than an Archdemon - he can TRULY never die. If he is killed, he can be reborn again and again, in darkspawn or Grey Warden, and there is no way to stop it, like there is with an Archdemon. 

It seems Corypheus cannot command an army of darkspawn (or Wardens) like the Archdemon can, nor does it seem his mere presence is killing the world (as far as we can tell). So his total power is less than that of the Old Gods. But his mastery over the taint, and the immortality that gives him, makes him much more difficult to stop. Making perhaps Hawke the most foolish, ignorant and reckless person to walk the face of Thedas.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 août 2013 - 07:25 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

If Corypheus had total control over the Grey Wardens how did they capture him in the first place?

[Fast Jimmy]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

If Corypheus had total control over the Grey Wardens how did they capture him in the first place?

Probably by using mages who weren't Grey Wardens? Just shooting in the dark here.

EDIT:

OR... they could have sealed a Grey Warden away in these Wards, then had some non-Grey Wardens kill Cory, causing his soul to escape to the nearest one... who would then already be locked away behind layers of magic?

Either way, they would have had to use someone like Hawke (a non-Warden) to capture him the first time. That's the only way I can see that happening.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 août 2013 - 07:34 .

[Sifr]

I like the idea that non-Wardens and Untainted Mages were used to contain Corypheus, since it'd fit with the manner in which his prison operates.

The question does remain however, unless Dumat had already demonstrated the ability to possess another Darkspawn upon death, how did Corypheus know it was possible to even jump hosts, since he was imprisoned over a hundred years before the Wardens finally put Dumat down?

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Corypheus was imprisoned after Dumat was defeated. But even if he was imprisoned in the middle of the First Blight, Dumat was likely killed many times even by then.

[Fast Jimmy]

Sifr1449 wrote...

I like the idea that non-Wardens and Untainted Mages were used to contain Corypheus, since it'd fit with the manner in which his prison operates.

The question does remain however, unless Dumat had already demonstrated the ability to possess another Darkspawn upon death, how did Corypheus know it was possible to even jump hosts, since he was imprisoned over a hundred years before the Wardens finally put Dumat down?

Well, Cory was mind controlling Wardens to break him out while he was still unconscious and trapped. Maybe much of the powers that the Taint offers are automatic and instinctual, rather than learned abilities. 

[Ieldra]

Han Shot First wrote...
[/i]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Corypheus is dead. The only jumping being done is some forumites jumping to weird conclusions.

No one is jumping to conclusions there. It was heavily implied that Corypheus possessed the Grey Warden. It wasn't even subtle.

Can someone explain this to me please? Because I can see no hint whatsoever of that happening in the events after the fight with Corypheus.

As I see it, everything is best explained by assuming that Corypheus is dead.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 août 2013 - 09:29 .

[aries1001]

I remember when we first head of this -ehm- person. We were told that his name meant the conductor, and we talked a great deal of what it is he could be conducting. Much guessing were there amoung the members of the BSN; little did we know that apparently it was the weather and and the elements he were capable of conducting. This discussion have had me reflect on this topic - my results so far are these:

What if Corypheus, the conductor, also is able to conduct other things than the weather and the elements - what if he has some sort of power (sorry, this is the only word I can come with right now) which gives him, Corypheus, the ability to control - someone - or something, either within a short distance or maybe long distance. And Corypheus conducts the things and happenings behind the scene. Further evidence, maybe, supporting this theory/hypothesis can be found by looking here: http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Corypheus "Corypheus's name comes from the Classical Greek κορυφαῖος (koryphaîos) and means "leader of the chorus" (in theater)..."
To be the leader of the chorus, he neees a choir/chorus to lead. If we look at the function of the chorus in greek tragedy, it is usually used to lament/comment the development of the actions
and the story - however, the chorus in greek tragedy are not allowed/cannot interfere with the actions that has taken place, will take place or is about to take place. Maybe Corypheus is such a tragic figure - in the original greek meaning of the word? He cannot do anything about what is about to happen, yet he comments on all things (or nearly all things). Remember that he say something like 'Black, it was [The Golden City] already black, when we entered.' To me, this shows that he, just as (the leader of) the chorus in a Greek tragedy is unable to change events, however much he wishes this to be true - and the he, indeed, could do this e.g. influence and change what's happening or is about to happen in the DA: Universe.
As to how he was imprisoned the first time, hundred of years ago, didn't Hawke's father (as the ghostly voice) say somehing about this? That it took many Grey Wardens...and that Hawke's father nearly were killed when he and other Grey Wardens discovered this prison, the prison which holds (or held) Corypheus.

In regards to the question of wheter Corypheus has the ability to jump into another body, I distincly remember him saying '"If I cannot leave with you, I will leave through you! I seek the light!" This seems to me to indicate that he indeed jumps into Larius/Janeka when he is been defeated. It also makes much (more) sense to me that Corypheus were imprisoned, since he, as others have suggested in this thread, indeed is immortal. And thus he cannot be killed - or rather, he will live again and again and again. Through others.....And this is why Hawke's father (ghostly voice) says that this darkspawn is the most dangerous one of them all. And that's why this prison were build...

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Peronsally, I think Corypheus is definitely alive.

The Grey Warden you sided with says to you "Thank you for freeing me", turns around with a very creepy smile and the music changes for a few second. I believe that was a big enough hint to convince me.

And the fact that despite siding with either of them, Larius and Janeka say the same thing sounds too good to be just a coincidence.

Modifié par DarkKnightHolmes, 27 août 2013 - 09:38 .

[Fast Jimmy]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
[/i]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Corypheus is dead. The only jumping being done is some forumites jumping to weird conclusions.

No one is jumping to conclusions there. It was heavily implied that Corypheus possessed the Grey Warden. It wasn't even subtle.

Can someone explain this to me please? Because I can see no hint whatsoever of that happening in the events after the fight with Corypheus.

As I see it, everything is best explained by assuming that Corypheus is dead.

And it doesn't strike you as odd that as Corypheus dies, the surviving Grey Warden screams and collapses, and then says the exact same lines about "thank you for freeing me," followed by the exact same villainous smile as Hawke walks away? It's almost as if... Hawke is talking to the same person, regardless of which Warden he helps...?  

To me, it is blatant and obvious insinuation. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't intended to at least make players THINK it had happened. 

[Ieldra]

@aries:
"I will leave through you" means "I will kill you and then leave", nothing more. It means that Hawke is an obstacle.

[caradoc2000]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone explain this to me please? Because I can see no hint whatsoever of that happening in the events after the fight with Corypheus.

There are some hints (also listed in this thread) that people use to rationalize all kinds of wild conclusions. Personally, I think that if developers want to use a character further, they shouldn't allow me to kill him. That is just bad writing. And it has happened too many times in DA already.

As I see it, everything is best explained by assuming that Corypheus is dead.

It is - also called Occam's razor.

[Ieldra]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...
[/i]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Corypheus is dead. The only jumping being done is some forumites jumping to weird conclusions.

No one is jumping to conclusions there. It was heavily implied that Corypheus possessed the Grey Warden. It wasn't even subtle.

Can someone explain this to me please? Because I can see no hint whatsoever of that happening in the events after the fight with Corypheus.

As I see it, everything is best explained by assuming that Corypheus is dead.

And it doesn't strike you as odd that as Corypheus dies, the surviving Grey Warden screams and collapses, and then says the exact same lines about "thank you for freeing me," followed by the exact same villainous smile as Hawke walks away? It's almost as if... Hawke is talking to the same person, regardless of which Warden he helps...?  

To me, it is blatant and obvious insinuation. I'd be very surprised if it wasn't intended to at least make players THINK it had happened.

It's neither blatant nor obvious to me, even after you point it out. I never saw a "villainous" smile and the lines the Wardens speak - if they're indeed identical - are generic lines easily explained by the writers' reluctance to write more unique lines than necessary. Also, you only notice this if you play the sequence twice - and even then... I never did even I did play it twice because it was in two games far apart. Any hint with meaning would be noticeable in one game.

No, Corypheus is dead. I'd be extremely surprised if he was ever intended to survive. If it turns out he did, I'll be convinced the writers retconned it to make a fan theory true.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 27 août 2013 - 09:47 .