163 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, Corypheus is dead. I'd be extremely surprised if he was ever intended to survive. If it turns out he did, I'll be convinced the writers retconned it to make a fan theory true.

Not picking on you in particular, but I'm absolutely shocked that anyone could think that Corypheus is alive. There just isn't a way for the designers to more blanatly show that he didn't die than basically having him jump up and down screaming "LOL NOT DEAD!!". 

I mean, the main story criticism after Legacy came out was how blatant it was that Corypheus still lived and how Bioware trapped us into a "Corypheus lives" ending. 

[Fast Jimmy]

The Warden turns away from Hawke and says "I feel like a brand new person <smug/coy/villainous smile>" before walking away. Their tone of voice is much more cold and distant than throughout the rest of the DLC.

To me, that's not a very big leap. And something I picked up on the first time I saw it, to forced more by the fact that the nearly the exact same dialogue is used between both Wardens.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 27 août 2013 - 09:53 .

[azarhal]

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, Corypheus is dead. I'd be extremely surprised if he was ever intended to survive. If it turns out he did, I'll be convinced the writers retconned it to make a fan theory true.

This post fit so well with yesterday little rant from Gaider.

It's not a "fan theory", Larius/Janeka ending dialogs point to something being very, very wrong with them after Corypheus was defeated.  It's a lot more evident with Larius though, the slunching ghoul that can barely put two words together end up walking straight and acting like he was never a ghoul. Janeka says "I feel like a whole new person", which makes no freaking sense!

[DarkKnightHolmes]

If Corypheus hasn't taken over one of the two characters then I'm wondering why they were smiling so much after turning away from you. Did they both have a good joke they forget to tell Hawke?

[Fast Jimmy]

azarhal wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
No, Corypheus is dead. I'd be extremely surprised if he was ever intended to survive. If it turns out he did, I'll be convinced the writers retconned it to make a fan theory true.

This post fit so well with yesterday little rant from Gaider.

It's not a "fan theory", Larius/Janeka ending dialogs point to something being very, very wrong with them after Corypheus was defeated.  It's a lot more evident with Larius though, the slunching ghoul that can barely put two words together end up walking straight and acting like he was never a ghoul. Janeka says "I feel like a whole new person", which makes no freaking sense!

I was thinking in the back of my head that I had heard this was confirmed recently. Thanks for the link.

So... neener, neener, neener to everyone who was saying it wasn't blatantly obvious. Gaider WROTE IT to be blatantly obvious in his eyes. 

[caradoc2000]

For argument's sake, let us assume that Corypheus possesses Larius/Janeka. However, all my Hawkes (also having a vivid imagination) kill both Larius and Janeka just to be sure. Corypheus would be dead in this scenario as well, no?

Fast Jimmy wrote...
Gaider WROTE IT to be blatantly obvious in his eyes. 

I'd call that bad writing, as I said in my earlier post. Why do my protagonists bother killing things when they don't stay dead?

Modifié par caradoc2000, 27 août 2013 - 09:59 .

[Fast Jimmy]

caradoc2000 wrote...

For argument's sake, let us assume that Corypheus possesses Larius/Janeka. However, all my Hawkes (also having a vivid imagination) kill both Larius and Janeka just to be sure. Corypheus would be dead in this scenario as well, no?

You don't get to kill them both. One dies, one lives, every time. 

[caradoc2000]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

For argument's sake, let us assume that Corypheus possesses Larius/Janeka. However, all my Hawkes (also having a vivid imagination) kill both Larius and Janeka just to be sure. Corypheus would be dead in this scenario as well, no?

You don't get to kill them both. One dies, one lives, every time. 

My Hawkes kill them after the camera turns away. Surely, if it is that obvious (as you guys seem to insist) that Corypheus changes bodies, Hawke wouldn't be so stupid as to do nothing.

[Sol Downer]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

For argument's sake, let us assume that Corypheus possesses Larius/Janeka. However, all my Hawkes (also having a vivid imagination) kill both Larius and Janeka just to be sure. Corypheus would be dead in this scenario as well, no?

You don't get to kill them both. One dies, one lives, every time. 

My Hawkes kill them after the camera turns away. Surely, if it is that obvious (as you guys seem to insist) that Corypheus changes bodies, Hawke wouldn't be so stupid as to do nothing.

But Hawke WAS that stupid.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

You realize you don't get to control what Hawke does off camera? How are you going to explain how he survived if Corypheus shows up again? That Bioware retconed your headcanon?

I'm still baffled how people could think he's dead. How would you write it to be more obvious? Janeka's line was dripping with irony. "My thanks for returning me to myself. I feel like... a whole new person." She even had an evil grin as she turned away.

Also, Hawke has no reason to think that Corypheus could switch bodies. He never played DAO.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 27 août 2013 - 10:06 .

[caradoc2000]

I killed Flemeth in DAO, she pulled a Voldemort and pops up in DA2.
I killed Leliana in DAO, and she ate up some ashes and pops up in DA2.
I killed Corypheus in DA2, and he swaps bodies like a cheap suit and pops up in DAI.

Why bother killing all these things if they are going to steamroll over player decisions anyway? I repeat, they shouldn't let the player kill someone, if they are going to bring that character back anyway. I would have accepted it if Corypheus had conjured up a magical grifffon and flown away.

[Sol Downer]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I killed Flemeth in DAO, she pulled a Voldemort and pops up in DA2.
I killed Leliana in DAO, and she ate up some ashes and pops up in DA2.
I killed Corypheus in DA2, and he swaps bodies like a cheap suit and pops up in DAI.

Why bother killing all these things if they are going to steamroll over player decisions anyway? I repeat, they shouldn't let the player kill someone, if they are going to bring that character back anyway. I would have accepted it if Corypheus had conjured up a magical grifffon and flown away.

Morrigan strictly told you that your killing Flemeth was only a delay.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

In the first and third example, it's made clear to the player right away that they survived. Escaping in a Warden's body is exactly the same as flying away on a Griffon.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 27 août 2013 - 10:16 .

[cjones91]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Fast Jimmy wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

For argument's sake, let us assume that Corypheus possesses Larius/Janeka. However, all my Hawkes (also having a vivid imagination) kill both Larius and Janeka just to be sure. Corypheus would be dead in this scenario as well, no?

You don't get to kill them both. One dies, one lives, every time. 

My Hawkes kill them after the camera turns away. Surely, if it is that obvious (as you guys seem to insist) that Corypheus changes bodies, Hawke wouldn't be so stupid as to do nothing.

This is why headcanon should'nt conflict with the story.

Modifié par cjones91, 27 août 2013 - 10:19 .

[cjones91]

caradoc2000 wrote...

I killed Flemeth in DAO, she pulled a Voldemort and pops up in DA2.
I killed Leliana in DAO, and she ate up some ashes and pops up in DA2.
I killed Corypheus in DA2, and he swaps bodies like a cheap suit and pops up in DAI.

Why bother killing all these things if they are going to steamroll over player decisions anyway? I repeat, they shouldn't let the player kill someone, if they are going to bring that character back anyway. I would have accepted it if Corypheus had conjured up a magical grifffon and flown away.

All those examples could be countered with you thought you killed them and are mad that those characters are still alive.

[cjones91]

Filament wrote...

Far be it for a few characters among the thousands you slaughter to actually escape your character's omnipotent omnicidal wrath, right?

I know right?Some people get angry when some characters survive a attempt on their life by the player.

[caradoc2000]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Escaping in a Warden's body is exactly the same as flying away on a Griffon.

Maybe, but why give the player the option to kill Corypheus in the first place. Why not have him fly away when he sees he is losing.

I resent the fact that I dodged his flaming merry-go-round for half-an-hour only to be told "tough luck, dude - you didn't actually kill him at all" This effectively takes away all player accomplishment.

As a counter-example you don't get the option to kill (or even try to stop) Tallis in MotA. I don't like this kind of railroading but I can live with it. I can understand how she would be returning.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Because Corypheus' survival is supposed to be a secret to Thedas, not to the player. I can understand how Corypheus would be returning perfectly fine. Basically it sounds like your problem is that no NPC should be allowed to fake their death to escape. They have to announce it to the world.

[Shadow Fox]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Can someone explain this to me please? Because I can see no hint whatsoever of that happening in the events after the fight with Corypheus.

There are some hints (also listed in this thread) that people use to rationalize all kinds of wild conclusions. Personally, I think that if developers want to use a character further, they shouldn't allow me to kill him. That is just bad writing. And it has happened too many times in DA already.

As I see it, everything is best explained by assuming that Corypheus is dead.

It is - also called Occam's razor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity










dictionary.reference.com/browse/non-canonical

[cjones91]

caradoc2000 wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Escaping in a Warden's body is exactly the same as flying away on a Griffon.

Maybe, but why give the player the option to kill Corypheus in the first place. Why not have him fly away when he sees he is losing.

I resent the fact that I dodged his flaming merry-go-round for half-an-hour only to be told "tough luck, dude - you didn't actually kill him at all" This effectively takes away all player accomplishment.

As a counter-example you don't get the option to kill (or even try to stop) Tallis in MotA. I don't like this kind of railroading but I can live with it. I can understand how she would be returning.

What's wrong with characters surviving a attempt on their lives by the PC?Sounds like you think the PC should be god and anyone who survives his/her wrath should stay dead lest they break the player's ego trip.

Modifié par cjones91, 27 août 2013 - 10:32 .

[caradoc2000]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Basically it sounds like your problem is that no NPC should be allowed to fake their death to escape.

It seems to me that most major character do this in DA.

I prefer the ME2 approach, the characters that get killed in the suicide mission stay dead.

cjones91 wrote...

What's wrong with characters surviving a attempt
on their lives by the PC?

What's wrong with not allowing the player to kill important characters.

Modifié par caradoc2000, 27 août 2013 - 10:35 .