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[Jedi Master of Orion]

Janeka even says "I feel like a whole new person" with her evil smile.She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 29 août 2013 - 06:49 .

[TuringPoint]

I was skeptical on the IT for mass effect. I know Corypheus is alive. Its more than a line, its everything said after his "death". That Hawke misses this is astonishing to me. He does everything but moohaha.  Not going to be a retcon.

Modifié par Alocormin, 29 août 2013 - 06:57 .

[thats1evildude]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

t doesn't have the same human perceptions or concerns.

Corypheus is, at his core, a human. He just lost a fight and, if he transferred his soul to a nearby Warden to survive, realizes that might not be an option again. So he does not change his form, but rather uses guile to make his escape.

 Maybe. The Archdemon definitely isn't stupid. And Corypheus was a bit of a ham; I'm inclined to believe that he wouldn't surrender his old form unless he was absolutely forced to.

More than likely, he made a huge sacrifice in power to take over Janeka/Larius.

Alocormin wrote...

That Hawke misses this is astonishing to me.

Hawke doesn't get to hear the ominous background music or have access to the player's knowledge. His back was turned to Janeka/Larius when Corypheus was struck down, and there's no reason to believe that Hawke knows how the Archdemon can surf from body to body.

Take away all that and what's left to make Hawke suspicious? One oddly-worded line.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2013 - 07:09 .

[Vortex13]

As far as the Darkspawn as a whole are concerned, my theory is that they are Anti-Fade beings. The dwarves are Fade 'nulls' in the sense that they have no real connection to it (dreaming, or magic), but the Darkspawn seem to be totally alien to the Fade.

The Taint operates more or less like a corrupted form of the Fade; powering spells, and providing a common element to all Tainted beings, much like how the Fade is common ground to all beings sensitive to it (dreaming, magic).

[Brenden7]

I have not read the entire thread as yet but my question is this: is the taint physical and/or spiritual? Corypheus did possess the taint when Hawke released him but, assuming he did possess Larius, is he still under the effects of the taint? Also as Larius was once a Warden Commander and should have knowledge of the location of the Old Gods, will Corypheus know possess that knowlege too?

[azarhal]

thats1evildude wrote...

Maybe. The Archdemon definitely isn't stupid. And Corypheus was a bit of a ham; I'm inclined to believe that he wouldn't surrender his old form unless he was absolutely forced to.

More than likely, he made a huge sacrifice in power to take over Janeka/Larius.

Archdemon moving to a new darkspawn shapeshift back into a dragon form. Maybe Cory can do the same thing, if it's the same magic at work?

Modifié par azarhal, 29 août 2013 - 12:24 .

[Merengues 1945]

Well, I believe that the archdemon it's still a greater menace, and there's at least two remaining... the Archdemon it's the head of the horde, all non-awakened darkspawn bend to the Archdemon's will and has proven being unable to be awakened. (the fifht blight started because the architect tried to do so).

A few magic tricks don't make you better.... You need a damned army and tapping Morrigan to beat the archdemon... Also he seems having trouble with junior members of the grey wardens (We didn't saw archdemons' powers over senior wardens) and abominations.

Also, Corypheus powers are bestowed on him by Archdemon Dumat... or at least that's seems to be the case. So in any case Archdemon>>>Corypheus

And finally, Dragons are cooler than hipster darkspawn.

[thats1evildude]

Brenden7 wrote...

I have not read the entire thread as yet but my question is this: is the taint physical and/or spiritual?

Bit of both. While you can definitely become corrupted by drinking darkspawn blood or eating their flesh, the taint itself is metaphysical in nature. People can be tainted by just being near darkspawn.

azarhal wrote...

Archdemon moving to a new darkspawn shapeshift back into a dragon form. Maybe Cory can do the same thing, if it's the same magic at work?

Like I said before, I don't think it is.

This isn't without precedent in the setting. After all, unless you believe Morrigan doesn't have a soul, Flemeth apparently possesses the ability to take over her daughters' bodies without a problem.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 août 2013 - 05:34 .

[septembervirgin]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

She said she's going to take a walk not a last march -- and the ritual death by combat a Warden undergoes is not called a "last march" anyway.  It's called a Calling.  Are you trying to deceive people in order to prove a false point?

Modifié par septembervirgin, 30 août 2013 - 02:20 .

[AresKeith]

septembervirgin wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

She said she's going to take a walk not a last march -- and the ritual death by combat a Warden undergoes is not called a "last march" anyway.  It's called a Calling.  Are you trying to deceive people in order to prove a false point?

What false point is that?

[In Exile]

Merengues 1945 wrote...
A few magic tricks don't make you better.... You need a damned army and tapping Morrigan to beat the archdemon... Also he seems having trouble with junior members of the grey wardens (We didn't saw archdemons' powers over senior wardens) and abominations.

You need a bunch of meat shields to keep the darkspawn busy. With griffons, the whole army business frankly would be irrelevant since you could just fight the archdemon in the sky. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2013 - 02:26 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I have a feeling that Corphy and the Architect are similar to Archedemons seeing as they have the ability to control the darkspawn though obviously the Archedemon's control is superior. Corphy and very possibly the Architect aren't able to be killed in the conventional way. An Archedemon can't die unless it is in close proximity to a Grey Warden. Since clearly a Grey Warden wasn't the magic button to kill Corphy there probably needs to be a different variant to kill him and the Architect permanently.

[d4eaming]

I find the concept that some people missed the blatant cues that Corypheus survived pretty lols. It was obvious- his smile, the warden lurching in the background, the ominous music, the odd way the warden spoke after it was done. Those are all standard cues that "something is not right" in fiction, alerting the player, but not the character, of something important. It's not vague whatsoever.

My warden mage let the Architect live, on the presumption that if he was lying, he could still be easily dispatched, and that if he was telling the truth, maybe the Blight can be stopped completely.

My Hawke sided with Larius, and I expect and hope to see repercussions of that later on.

[Vortex13]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

I have a feeling that Corphy and the Architect are similar to Archedemons seeing as they have the ability to control the darkspawn though obviously the Archedemon's control is superior. Corphy and very possibly the Architect aren't able to be killed in the conventional way. An Archedemon can't die unless it is in close proximity to a Grey Warden. Since clearly a Grey Warden wasn't the magic button to kill Corphy there probably needs to be a different variant to kill him and the Architect permanently.

My guess on how to combat Corypheus/the Architect and kill them permently would be the Awakened. 

Think about it, the Architect clearly does not have control over all the sentient Darkspawn you encounter in Awakening meaning that the process of giving a Darkspawn sentience also gives it a measure of resistance to controlling effects. The Mother said she "Couldn't hear the music" of the Old Gods; now one would assume that is because the Arch Demon is dead, but if that was the case, why are the Darkspawn drawn to the Un-Tainted dragons at all? No, I say that the Calling is always present, and that the Mother's insanity was due (in part) to her being completly immune to its effects.

Also, the Architect/Corypheus seem to have a mastery over their Taint; but so do the Awakened; sure it might not be as trained as their control, but it really is only a matter of time before one of the intelligent Darkspawn figures it out, and then you have a case of fighting fire with fire.

Modifié par Vortex13, 30 août 2013 - 12:22 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

septembervirgin wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

She said she's going to take a walk not a last march -- and the ritual death by combat a Warden undergoes is not called a "last march" anyway.  It's called a Calling.  Are you trying to deceive people in order to prove a false point?

She doesn't say she's going for "a walk." Why would she randomly tell Hawke she was going for a walk? She says "Then it's time for me to take the long walk."

I'm pretty sure I've heard that term used to describe a Warden marching into the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn before.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 août 2013 - 04:51 .

[Merengues 1945]

In Exile wrote...

Merengues 1945 wrote...
A few magic tricks don't make you better.... You need a damned army and tapping Morrigan to beat the archdemon... Also he seems having trouble with junior members of the grey wardens (We didn't saw archdemons' powers over senior wardens) and abominations.

You need a bunch of meat shields to keep the darkspawn busy. With griffons, the whole army business frankly would be irrelevant since you could just fight the archdemon in the sky. 

Yeah, the sky-fighting thingy didn't work well for Riordan... Raiding a flamethrowing winged monster who surely flies higher and faster than griffins sounds kinda suicidal. Even with magic and dalish archers by your side.

Maybe there's something to the theory of fighting Corypheus and beings of the sort with other darkspawn. But that would mean, that any grey warden should be able to kill him for good. Grey Wardens and Awakened Darkspawn are very close between them so they both sould be able to deal with Cory.

[n7stormrunner]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

septembervirgin wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

She said she's going to take a walk not a last march -- and the ritual death by combat a Warden undergoes is not called a "last march" anyway.  It's called a Calling.  Are you trying to deceive people in order to prove a false point?

She doesn't say she's going for "a walk." Why would she randomly tell Hawke she was going for a walk? She says "Then it's time for me to take the long walk."

I'm pretty sure I've heard that term used to describe a Warden marching into the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn before.

no, it's always been Calling.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Sigrun refers to it as "a warden's last walk" in Awakening. I don't think it was a stretch to think that was what "Janeka/Corypheus means when she said she's going to take "the long walk."

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 août 2013 - 06:48 .

[Vortex13]

Merengues 1945 wrote...

Maybe there's something to the theory of fighting Corypheus and beings of the sort with other darkspawn. But that would mean, that any grey warden should be able to kill him for good. Grey Wardens and Awakened Darkspawn are very close between them so they both sould be able to deal with Cory.

Grey Wardens and Awakened have similar means of becoming what they are, but they are very different from each other.

Assuming that the Architect and Corypheus are in fact Tevinter Magisters of old, they are mearly humans who have contracted the Taint. Now this Taint is undoubtely very poetent than the corruption currently present, but in essence (if they are indeed aincient magisters) they are more akin to highly evolved Grey Wardens than actual Darkspawn. The Joining Ritual of the Wardens involves taking an uncorrupted being and exposing it to the Taint, thus giving them their Darkspawn Jedi senses.

But Awakened are born Darkspawn. They have no prior (human, elf, dwarf, etc.) nature; all they have ever been has been Darkspawn. The Awakening Ritual involves taking Grey Warden blood (I would guess the uncorrupted portion of it) and granting the creature sentience, essentially working the reverse of the Joining Ritual. The newfound intellegence allows the Awakened to resist the call of the Old Gods, as well as granting the creature a concious, individual access to the Taint. 

If you think about it, the Awakened; and the regular Darkspawn; are the only 'pure' Darkspawn, having been born with the Taint present. The Arch Demon, Corypheus, and the Architect (again assuming they are Tevinter magisters) are only corrupted by it. To use a line from the Dark Knight Rises:

"You mearly adopted the dark. I was born in it."

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm thinking that The Architect is not a magister. There are some things that are so different from Corypheus, that they don't seem to make sense despite the unmistakeable similarities. My first theory is that he was created by one of the Darkspawn Magisters.

Otherwise, why didn't he posses or control any of the wardens who killed him?
Why couldn't he mimic the Old Gods' call?
Why does he think he's a darkspawn not a Tevinter? He even admits he doesn't understand non darkspawn.
Why does he have a different speech pattern?
Why can't he clearly hear the song of the Old Gods?

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 30 août 2013 - 07:54 .

[RazorrX]

n7stormrunner wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

septembervirgin wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...
She also inexplicably says she going to kill herself by taking a Warden's last march. Didn't that seem strange?

She said she's going to take a walk not a last march -- and the ritual death by combat a Warden undergoes is not called a "last march" anyway.  It's called a Calling.  Are you trying to deceive people in order to prove a false point?

She doesn't say she's going for "a walk." Why would she randomly tell Hawke she was going for a walk? She says "Then it's time for me to take the long walk."

I'm pretty sure I've heard that term used to describe a Warden marching into the deep roads to die fighting darkspawn before.

no, it's always been Calling.

The Calling is what it is called when they feel the pull of the taint.  

The Long Walk could very well be a term for the trek to the underdark.

Thus when your calling comes you take the long walk.

[Vortex13]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm thinking that The Architect is not a magister. There are some things that are so different from Corypheus, that they don't seem to make sense despite the unmistakeable similarities. My first theory is that he was created by one of the Darkspawn Magisters.

Otherwise, why didn't he posses or control any of the wardens who killed him?
Why couldn't he mimic the Old Gods' call?
Why does he think he's a darkspawn not a Tevinter? He even admits he doesn't understand non darkspawn.
Why does he have a different speech pattern?
Why can't he clearly hear the song of the Old Gods?

That could very well be the case with the Architect. He could very well be the first Awakened Darkspawn; a mutant.

I still say that the Awakened Darkspawn; even the regular run of the mill Disciples; are (technically) stronger than Corypheus and the Arch Demon, simply because their Taint is something that is inate and not an outside agent that corrupted them. 

[In Exile]

Merengues 1945 wrote...
Yeah, the sky-fighting thingy didn't work well for Riordan... Raiding a flamethrowing winged monster who surely flies higher and faster than griffins sounds kinda suicidal. Even with magic and dalish archers by your side.

Fighting a dragon using footsoldiers is even dumber. If Riordan went "Splat!" as he should have, then everyone was screwed because there was no actual plan to have the archdemon land. But then if we're being realistic the archdemon didn't use any sensible tactics in actually stopping the Warden. 

But that would mean, that any grey warden should be able to kill him for good. Grey Wardens and Awakened Darkspawn are very close between them so they both sould be able to deal with Cory.

Like the archdemon, Corypheus is far, far less of a threat than awakened darkspawn. 

Vortex13 wrote...
But Awakened are born Darkspawn. They have no prior (human, elf, dwarf, etc.) nature; all they have ever been has been Darkspawn. The Awakening Ritual involves taking Grey Warden blood (I would guess the uncorrupted portion of it) and granting the creature sentience, essentially working the reverse of the Joining Ritual. The newfound intellegence allows the Awakened to resist the call of the Old Gods, as well as granting the creature a concious, individual access to the Taint.  

Yes, and they're diseasse causing, immortal rape machines too. They're just wonderful. I get that you're really into these things, but at least be honest about what they really are. 

I still say that the Awakened Darkspawn; even the regular run of the mill Disciples; are (technically) stronger than Corypheus and the Arch Demon, simply because their Taint is something that is inate and not an outside agent that corrupted them.

Actually, their very existence is external to the taint, because it takes a non-tainted entity to even bring them about. 

Modifié par In Exile, 30 août 2013 - 08:21 .

[Vortex13]

In Exile wrote...

Vortex13 wrote...
But Awakened are born Darkspawn. They have no prior (human, elf, dwarf, etc.) nature; all they have ever been has been Darkspawn. The Awakening Ritual involves taking Grey Warden blood (I would guess the uncorrupted portion of it) and granting the creature sentience, essentially working the reverse of the Joining Ritual. The newfound intellegence allows the Awakened to resist the call of the Old Gods, as well as granting the creature a concious, individual access to the Taint.  

Yes, and they're diseasse causing, immortal rape machines too. They're just wonderful. I get that you're really into these things, but at least be honest about what they really are. 

I never said that the Awakened, or Darkspawn in general, are not a threat; in fact I would agree with you that a 'bad' Awakened (aka The Mother) is a horrifiing possiblity. I have never tried to hide the actions that they have been shown to do in the games/lore. I have mearly said that they are capable of doing other, non evil things, and could serve as plausable allies.

• The Taint is very deadly and contagious BUT we do have in game and in lore examples of that being nullified and/or reduced infectivity.

• Yes, Darkspawn are imortal. I don't see how that in and of itself is a bad thing. Elves used to be immortal as well, is that bad?

• Awakened raping everything is not a guarenteeded outcome. The Messenger didn't attempt any violating when he showed up to help.

In Exile wrote...

I still say that the Awakened Darkspawn; even the regular run of the mill Disciples; are (technically) stronger than Corypheus and the Arch Demon, simply because their Taint is something that is inate and not an outside agent that corrupted them.

Actually, their very existence is external to the taint, because it takes a non-tainted entity to even bring them about. 

I don't think it is a non-Tainted entity, they use Grey Warden blood; blood that is already Tainted.

[Merengues 1945]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

I'm thinking that The Architect is not a magister. There are some things that are so different from Corypheus, that they don't seem to make sense despite the unmistakeable similarities. My first theory is that he was created by one of the Darkspawn Magisters.

Otherwise, why didn't he posses or control any of the wardens who killed him?
Why couldn't he mimic the Old Gods' call?
Why does he think he's a darkspawn not a Tevinter? He even admits he doesn't understand non darkspawn.
Why does he have a different speech pattern?
Why can't he clearly hear the song of the Old Gods?

I believe something along the ways of that... The architect seemed very different from Corypheus, wich makes me believe he is not a magister nor a creation of a magister, buth the apex of darkspawn evolution. As far as i undertanded his rambling, he was born darkspawn, in some point he just came to develop sentience beyond the darkspawn hive-mind.

Maybe the reason of his lack of amazing means of control (he can barely hold the leash of his non awakaned darkspawn when they get blood-thirst mad), because he is a true darkspawn, born from a brood mother, not tainted... That's what make him far more dangerous, he has a mind of his own, he is not crazed by the taint.