244 réponses à ce sujet

[Taleroth]

cjones91 wrote...

It's not about choices being right or wrong but them having consequences that the player can't control or erase.

You said it was about mocking the player. You effectively want people who play in a way you don't like to be mocked. You want them to be judged.

Consequences the player can't control is nothing like mocking. It's a whole other concept.

And if the consequences are too far out of the player's control, then you're still effectively making the player lose because of writer fiat. Not because of merit.

[AppealToReason]

MaraGriffyn wrote...

In the DAI coverage this month, Bioware has emphasized the idea of the choices we make having long-term and sometimes unforeseeable consequences. So hopefully it will happen to some extent.

I can't wait for that to backfire because 'IT MAKES NO SENSE LETTING THIS CRIMINAL LIVE WOULD MEAN HE'D KEEP BEING A CRIMINAL BIOWER GAWL!! I TOLD HIM TO STOP WHY ISN'T THAT ENOUGH!'

[Sylvianus]

You can both have consequences that the player can't control or erase and a competent and badass hero in the same story.

In DAO, I liked the fact that the warden was imprisoned and needed help from a friend outside the jail.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 28 août 2013 - 12:02 .

[Shadow Fox]

AppealToReason wrote...

People will say yes because they 1) "wah wah heroism sucks" or 2) choices with consequences but then when/if it happens they will be up in arms crying about how Biower is railroading them or nothing in the game makes sense anymore or something

The Red Ranger speaks the truth.

[Aaleel]

I'll all for choices having definitive separate outcomes, and even consequences.

Most choices in Bioware games now pretty much involve you killing or not killing someone, but you see almost everything that is going to happen. I would love decisions where the outcomes are way down the line, and lives lost (if any), or negative effects are not ones you can always foresee before making the choice.

But above all I just want two definitive outcomes for choices. One of the things that bothered me most about DA2 was how both choices led to the same outcome. Give Isabella the book or don't she gets the book. Help Anders or not, chantry is blown up. Help Merrill or not, pick Orsino or Merideth etc. Just give me a linear story with no choices if you're going to have choices like that,

Modifié par Aaleel, 28 août 2013 - 12:05 .

[cjones91]

Taleroth wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

It's not about choices being right or wrong but them having consequences that the player can't control or erase.

You said it was about mocking the player. You effectively want people who play in a way you don't like to be mocked. You want them to be judged.

Consequences the player can't control is nothing like mocking. It's a whole other concept.

And if the consequences are too far out of the player's control, then you're still effectively making the player lose because of writer fiat. Not because of merit.

What I mean by mocking the player is if they made a choice that other characters say is bad but they make it anyway because of ego/feeling like a badass then when that choice backfires the player should be walking around with egg on their face.

Not every choice should have consequences the player can erase or sidestep and they need to live with their decision instead of reloading the game.

Modifié par cjones91, 28 août 2013 - 12:05 .

[Taleroth]

krul2k wrote...

what about, there aint no right or wrong choice there is just the consequence?

My ideal design of choices is that choices should have equal content designed to be interesting to the type of player that chose them.

The most basic example I can come up with is a building with three entrances. A front entrance you have to fight through, a back entrance you have to sneak to reach, and a roof entrance you have to platform. The "consequence" of each is an encounter tailored to that player. A front entrance combat, more sneaking around back, and suspending rafters you have to jump across up top.

You can customize narratives the same way you customize encounters if you're willing to put that same effort. The hero who rushes in to save the girl and cheers of the crowd, the guile hero that infiltrates the bad guys to take them apart from the inside, yet goes unknown to the greater world, the anti-hero that acts more violently because he believes it leads to longer term good, but has everyone hate him for it.

cjones91 wrote...

What I mean by mocking the player is if they made a choice that other characters say is bad but they make it anyway because of ego/feeling like a badass then when that choice backfires the player should be walking around with egg on their face.

Not every choice should have consequences the player can erase or sidestep and they need to live with their decision instead of reloading the game.

Yes, that sounds exactly like you think the player is making a wrong choice. You are judging a player's roleplay and wanting to punish them because they don't agree with you.

Any choice you think is truly wrong would be better off not offered than offered and mocked. You are not better than other players because of the choices you prefer.

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 août 2013 - 12:10 .

[David7204]

If the choice is made solely on the merit of 'feeling like a badass,' then yes, I could see this as reasonable. However, such a choice needs to very clearly be completely pointless and petty. Such as killing someone who is clearly innocent and willing to help you.

However, if the choice has other merits, such as a player deciding to spare someone in a Go and Sin No More situation on faith that they will do better, the player shouldn't be mocked for trying to do the right thing. Not in a story like this.

Modifié par David7204, 28 août 2013 - 12:11 .

[Shadow Fox]

^^^^DA2

Modifié par Arcane Warrior Mage Hawke, 28 août 2013 - 12:10 .

[cjones91]

Taleroth wrote...

krul2k wrote...

what about, there aint no right or wrong choice there is just the consequence?

My ideal design of choices is that choices should have equal content designed to be interesting to the type of player that chose them.

The most basic example I can come up with is a building with three entrances. A front entrance you have to fight through, a back entrance you have to sneak to reach, and a roof entrance you have to platform. The "consequence" of each is an encounter tailored to that player. A front entrance combat, more sneaking around back, and suspending rafters you have to jump across up top.

You can customize narratives the same way you customize encounters if you're willing to put that same effort. The hero who rushes in to save the girl and cheers of the crowd, the guile hero that infiltrates the bad guys to take them apart from the inside, yet goes unknown to the greater world, the anti-hero that acts more violently because he believes it leads to longer term good, but has everyone hate him for it.

cjones91 wrote...

What I mean by mocking the player is if they made a choice that other characters say is bad but they make it anyway because of ego/feeling like a badass then when that choice backfires the player should be walking around with egg on their face.

Not every choice should have consequences the player can erase or sidestep and they need to live with their decision instead of reloading the game.

Yes, that sounds exactly like you think the player is making a wrong choice. You are judging a player's roleplay and wanting to punish them because they don't agree with you.

Any choice you think is truly wrong would be better off not offered than offered and mocked. You are not better than other players because of the choices you prefer.

I'm not judging anyone and I don't think I'm better because of how I play.How is making deals with demons or ancient beings when people in the game tell they are bad news but you think nothing will happen and then having that choice backfire a bad thing?

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

However, if the choice has other merits, such as a player deciding to spare someone in a Go and Sin No More situation on faith that they will do better, the player shouldn't be mocked for trying to do the right thing. Not in a story like this.

And what story is this like David?

[David7204]

A story that has very clear heroic themes and imagery, plentiful promises of choices that matter, and a (supposedly) very competent and powerful protagonist.

Modifié par David7204, 28 août 2013 - 12:19 .

[AresKeith]

David7204 wrote...

A story that has very clear heroic themes and imagery, plentiful promises of choices that matter, and a (supposedly) very competent and powerful protagonist.

As much as I want to go the heroism alley, I'm not

Just because you wanna play heroic doesn't excuse you from making a choice that can penalize you or come back to bite you in the butt 

[Taleroth]

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not judging anyone and I don't think I'm better because of how I play.How is making deals with demons or ancient beings when people in the game tell they are bad news but you think nothing will happen and then having that choice backfire a bad thing?

What characters say is meant to convey their character, not indisputable facts about the world. Everyone will, at some time or another, say that what you are doing is impossible. It's part of the what makes these journeys so grand. The player puts in the time and the effort to do the impossible and then they win the challenge.

When these choices "backfire" is it because the player failed? Or was it because the player was denied? A player makes a deal with a demon, do not ever assume the player thinks "oh, nothing will ever happen." Assume the player thinks "the demon is going to come after me, I better be prepared."

Do you allow the player to prepare? Do you allow them to research protections against demons? Do you allow them to hunt down the demon before it can attack? The player is thus allowed to put in the effort to win by their merits.

Now you're creating content custom tailored to support the player's character. And you're no longer making hasty judgements where you underestimate and insult them.

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 août 2013 - 12:25 .

[Inside_Joke]

Like, choices that make me question my moral standing and make me feel like an ****?

Yes please.

[cjones91]

Taleroth wrote...

cjones91 wrote...

I'm not judging anyone and I don't think I'm better because of how I play.How is making deals with demons or ancient beings when people in the game tell they are bad news but you think nothing will happen and then having that choice backfire a bad thing?

What characters say is meant to convey their character, not indisputable facts about the world. Everyone will, at some time or another, say that what you are doing is impossible. It's part of the what makes these journeys so grand. The player puts in the time and the effort to do the impossible and then they win the challenge.

When these choices "backfire" is it because the player failed? Or was it because the player was denied? A player makes a deal with a demon, do not ever assume the player thinks "oh, nothing will ever happen." Assume the player thinks "the demon is going to come after me, I better be prepared."

Do you allow the player to prepare? Do you allow them to research protections against demons? Do you allow them to hunt down the demon before it can attack? The player is thus allowed to put in the effort to win by their merits.

Now you're creating content custom tailored to support the player's character. And you're no longer making hasty judgements where you underestimate and insult them.

Many people say making deals with demons is bad and there are countless cases where those deals end badly.Only the most egotistical of players would go in thinking"Heh heh...I'm going to pull one over on that large Pride Demon even though I was warned multiple times not to,but I'm badass and can kill all the demons if I wanted to."

As a matter of fact if a mage thought like that then they would get possessed on the spot while the Pride Demon mocks them for being so arrogant,those are the kind of consequences that should naturally end in disaster.

[David7204]

AresKeith wrote...

David7204 wrote...

A story that has very clear heroic themes and imagery, plentiful promises of choices that matter, and a (supposedly) very competent and powerful protagonist.

As much as I want to go the heroism alley, I'm not

Just because you wanna play heroic doesn't excuse you from making a choice that can penalize you or come back to bite you in the butt 

Occansionally, maybe. But it sure as hell shouldn't be the norm throughout the game if choices matter. And the narrative certainly shouldn't mock you for it.

[Taleroth]

cjones91 wrote...

Many people say making deals with demons is bad and there are countless cases where those deals end badly.Only the most egotistical of players would go in thinking"Heh heh...I'm going to pull one over on that large Pride Demon even though I was warned multiple times not to,but I'm badass and can kill all the demons if I wanted to."

As a matter of fact if a mage thought like that then they would get possessed on the spot while the Pride Demon mocks them for being so arrogant,those are the kind of consequences that should naturally end in disaster.

 
See, you're assuming too much and insulting the player.

Any situation in which you think the player would be stupid to take on a challenge, now imagine it's the goal of the entire game. And you have a new quest. Two wardens against a blight is harder than one guy against a pride demon. Whatever allies they need to seek, whatever McGuffin they need to find, whatever test of character they need to pass.

Or if you're not willing to put in that effort, then you shouldn't bother with that scenario. You're just being condescending to the player because of your own lack of imagination or effort. It is a game first and foremost, challenges are content.

Modifié par Taleroth, 28 août 2013 - 12:52 .

[KiwiQuiche]

They did that with Hawke. All it did was make me hate her for being such a failure of a champion.

Seriously, who wants to play a loser who sucks at everything?

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 28 août 2013 - 12:47 .

[Maria Caliban]

Taleroth wrote...

I don't believe choices should be judged. You can't roleplay "wrong." And that's what it amounts to. When you treat a choice as bad, you're telling the player they are playing the game incorrectly.

Do you remember the quest in DA 2 with the nobleman's son? He thought he was possessed and he went around killing elves. Prior to going in to confront him, a guard tells you that if you let him live, his father will make sure he's freed again.

But if you let him live, we never hear of the son after that.

Do you think it would be appropriate if Hawke later came upon a guard standing beside the body of the dead elf, and the guard mentioned they were searching for the nobleman's son again?

KiwiQuiche wrote...

They did that with Hawke. All it did was make me hate her for being such a failure of a champion.

Seriously, who wants to play a loser who sucks at everything?

The majority of time Hawke fails, there is no choice involved. Do you support the mages and want to help their rebellion? You can't, the mages decide you're against them the moment you show up. Do you want to search for the serial killer? You can't, so your mother dies. Do you want to try to find a peaceful solution? No matter what you do, Anders blows up the chantry.

We'd have to actually be given a choice for some of those choices to be less than optimal.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 août 2013 - 12:55 .

[Bionuts]

How is letting a criminal go being heroic?

Doesn't really matter, though. DA is not about being a hero, David. Play the games and you'll see.

[OLDIRTYBARON]

Man Hawke catches a lot of **** for making the best out of impossible situations.

To answer the OP's point, BioWare needs to balance the wants and needs of their audience. Some people want what you ask for - and that's what we mostly got in Dragon Age 2. Some people, on the other hand, want nothing but the pure power fantasy. Neither is more important than the other, merely different. Sadly, stradling the line between is something few games - even BioWare games - ever do.

[David7204]

A competent and successful hero is not 'power fantasy.'