244 réponses à ce sujet

[TuringPoint]

 In answer to the threads title: yes.  Definitely.

Modifié par Alocormin, 28 août 2013 - 04:59 .

[Zu Long]

Maybe some people do. I'm not one of them. Playing games for me is an escape and a way to have fun. I don't find getting my butt kicked in cut scenes to be much fun.

[Medhia Nox]

Not being Shepard? Absolutely.

Being Hawke? Absolutely not.

The Warden was at least one of several "Special" folks that could solve the ending of the game.  In fact, nothing says:  I'm not THAT important, than having an NPC Warden finish the game for you.  Or, sure - you can use childbirth as a way to save my craven pathetic life.

I like the option to do these things if you don't want to be the superstar.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 28 août 2013 - 05:04 .

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

If the story demands a new Player character, then I will become that character to combat the darkness and serve the Light.

[Star fury]

Playing dwarf commoner was extremely fun, even if you have to be a petty criminal and a pawn of Behrat. Everyone outside Dust town treats you like dirt, dialogue about tooth was hilarious. That what it's called good game design, you're not some demigod.

[Blood-Lord Thanatos]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Steelcan wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

David7204 wrote...

Javik is ugly. Just in general.

You shut your ***** mouth Davey Javik is sexy!

Hmmm Javik.:wub:

Spam Liara/Javik fanart?

It's the only option.

In fealty to the god-emperor our undying...

Primum legere damnati et mundo.
 Magister de hominitas habet opus face hic nobis
secunda pecto legitu, Chaos et arce .
 Dominus regit nos contra malum.
 Ignis et carnifex.
 Habemus debuimus.
 et Mortem Imperator, legit Quarto.
 Legios damnatorum volunte impleru imperialam voluntas!

[Knight_Quack]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Not being Shepard? Absolutely.

Being Hawke? Absolutely not.

The Warden was at least one of several "Special" folks that could solve the ending of the game.  In fact, nothing says:  I'm not THAT important, than having an NPC Warden finish the game for you.  Or, sure - you can use childbirth as a way to save my craven pathetic life.

I like the option to do these things if you don't want to be the superstar.

Oh please, you couldn't solve the ending of the game, just the circumstances leading to it, the ending is the same: The Blight is ended. Same in DA2, a conflict starts between mages and templars. The difference lies that in DA:O you reach closure, hence a sense of empowerment for the player, Warden is the big HERO!!, whether DA2 is kinda like spectating a story that doesn't reach its end, from inside. But I'm fine with both, they're just different styles and in both gameplay serves the story.

[Ieldra]

@OP:
IMO...
(1) Choices that backfire should exist, and
(2) Choices the world hates you for should exist.

The former establishing that you aren't always right, and the latter establishing that your choices may be right in your mind but the world is under no obligation to love you for it.

Yes, these things should be in the game. Things only get problematic if there are *only* such choices. I hated in the ME games that the choices were made to pander to Paragons and a mentality of "follow your heart and everything will be ok", but the opposite would be equally bad. I want a balanced pattern of choices.

[JJDXB]

I honestly liked that DA2 made Hawke blunder a lot. It's making a statement that no matter how big you are, things are always outside of your control and that things can never always go your way. This is true not just for the enemies such as Archdemons or Knight-Commanders, but the hero as well.

EDIT: Also, DA:O had an overreaching objective: kill the archdemon.  No matter who you sided with in the main quests, you always ended up with an army; things always went your way and you were the hero.  DA:2 had no such goal.  Hawke isn't there to save the world, he's there to make a living and perhaps save a few people on the side.  He is but an observer with the occasional input into the lead up to the ending.  He can be a hero, but not because he's going out to save the world.  He blundered/stumbled into/onto that, and I like that.

EDIT2: I've noticed I changed the person when describing the Warden vs Hawke.  It fits well, I think.  You are the warden, Hawke is a completely separate character whom you control for brief periods within a decade.

Modifié par JBDXB, 28 août 2013 - 11:47 .

[crimzontearz]

I do not play games to be reminded that reality sucks, I am reminded of that every day.....hence why I enjoy most Bioware games

and TW series so far

[Parmida]

No. I don't want another Hawke.

Modifié par Parmida, 28 août 2013 - 12:05 .

[Wulfram]

Maria Caliban wrote...

spirosz wrote...

Because it's an easy score.  Unless you dressed your 'Avatar' nude, he/she would seem likely to make quick work of a beggar. 

It's an easy score to ask the PC for money as well.

DA:O handled this in a far more believable fashion. You gave someone a gold coin and suddenly half a dozen people were crowding around you asking for a hand out.

Though IIRC even if you're a total soft touch and give the largest amount to everybody, you still can't give them all that much, compared to the amount you can give to some individual humans. 

I'm not sure if that's clever social commentary or just Bioware not really having a good idea of how much money is Thedas.

Modifié par Wulfram, 28 août 2013 - 12:15 .

[Medhia Nox]

@Knight_Quack: If you enjoy watching your games play themselves, I'm totally cool with that.

Also - I don't consider letting someone else die for you, or using the Dark Ritual to be heroic at all.

So, like almost every story ever invented anywhere... the game comes to an ending, and you're saying because it has an ending... it's "just like DA2". I disagree.

To stay on topic:

- I want to be thrown curveballs in how I can deal with the story (which will ALWAYS be linear in an attempt at a persistent world story).

- But I do not want my story usurped by those curveballs. (Saying that the mages win, no matter WHAT I do... is "alright"... not letting me react to it afterward? Terrible.)

[Volus Warlord]

David7204 wrote...

That really depends on how you define 'selfish.' Like Rand would, or like most people would? If you're defining selfishness as Rand would, then 'good' outcomes absolutely need to lead to selfish rewards, yes. If you're defining it like most people would, then no, they absolutely don't need to at all.

I have no idea where in hell you're getting these ideas of 'naivety' in my post. Because there's no opinions at all in it. It's just me commenting on information. You apparently expect 'good' choices to lead to selfish rewards. Taking the 'good' choice in games often means giving up a 'selfish' reward. Is that all not perfectly true?

Yet you seem to be making some sort of interpretation that there's a philosophy there on my part.

Care to elaborate on "most people" 's definition of selfish vs Rand's definition? Or are you just drawing a convenient line from nowhere?

And they are almost entirely opinions.  Very little fact to be found in your posts I'm afraid. Hell, the very fact that you think your utterings are fact is indeed further evidence of your naivety.  And taking the "good" choice rarely means giving up a selfish reward. You just get a different selfish reward. So it seems your statements are perfectly false.

[maliluka]

Phate Phoenix wrote...

 I like the idea, but it has to be done carefully or else you end up with a situation like in ME3 and Kai Leng. It has to feel like, when I made that choice, it was the right one, and the not like the game is purposefully setting me up for a fall.

In a similar vein, I propose that our companions play a larger roll in these kinds of things. Say I'm playing a mage and, generally, mages don't have a lot of cunning. If we were to come into a situation where a person is lying, my character wouldn't be able to figure that out because it requiress a cunning check to pass. However, if I had a companion who could clear that check, they would step forward and alert my character. That way, instead of feeling, "Oh man, my character is such a dweeb," I'm feeling, "Dude, my companion is awesome!"

somewhat like when Zevran tried to step in and help you at wicked grace if you were a mage and you were playing Isabella?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

cjones91 wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

EntropicAngel wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

In DAO, the warden PC was outcasted from fereldan by Loghain, treated like an errand boy by almost everyone and Mage/elven/dwarven PC were discriminated many times in the game. So when was our ego fed in the DA series again?

When you chose who became the dwarven king, who became the leader of the dalish clan of elves (or, whether Zathrian died or not), when you chose who was the king of Ferelden, and when you chose whether or not to capture the soul of an old god and place it in a "baby."

So.... like almost western rpg in the last 15 years, we have choices! What a shocker. Op, might as well make a thread about fallout, elder scroll, witchers or every other bioware game and complain about them feeding our ego in that case.

I think becoming a god or creating one is the highest form of a ego trip.

The Warden can die so how are we a God again?
Gregoir treats the mage Warden like dirt, the dwarve commoners get made fun of by almost every noble, city elf warden fails to stop his own cousin from getting raped and dalish elf gets the taint and can lose a close friend. Maybe if you're a human noble then life is pretty sweet (minus the fact that you're whole family got murdered) but the others not so much.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have let my mage warden become king of fereldan instead Anora rejects me and I have to let the likes of Alistair or Anora rule the land.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have allowed the circle of magi to get their independence if we're mage warden but instead the chantry goes "Lol, nope!" even after stopping a blight.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have let your city elf become a noble and make you powerful instead it cause a huge riot between humans and elves. Also if you decide to make Shianni the noble then she dies! 

I don't see much ego feeding, all I see is the Warden gets some jobs done and everyone is like "Yeah, thanks. We'll help in the war now after we made you our little servant"

[maliluka]

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction

In DAO we go around doing "errands" for everyone to try and raise and army because apparently they are incapapble of problem solving for themselves. you don't become "heroic" until after defeating the archdeamon.

In DA2 you become pretty damn important after blundering your way into defeating the Arishok (if you take that route) but then you put your self on a lot of peoples S*** list if you defend Anders after he blows up the Chantry, And depending what side you side with you have a nice big wanted posted with your mugshot on it I am imagining... Not exactly ego feeding hero status.

I am pretty sure there is plenty of opportunity for non ego feeding moments to come

[Bekkael]

cjones91 wrote...

In past games many choices ended up telling the player how badass and awesome they are, but would anyone like it if some choices did'nt do that and instead they mocked the player in-game for making them?It would be interesting to have several ego deflating moments and it would add some interesting elements to the story.For example you try to kill someone but later on they survived and lay a trap for you,that would make players think twice before they kill everyone they meet.

What does everyone think?

I need my ego fed on a regular basis. I want a game to tell me:

1.You're good enough
2.You're smart enough
3. Doggonit! People like you!

This is what I require from my video games. :innocent:

[Knight_Quack]

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Knight_Quack: If you enjoy watching your games play themselves, I'm totally cool with that.

Also - I don't consider letting someone else die for you, or using the Dark Ritual to be heroic at all.

So, like almost every story ever invented anywhere... the game comes to an ending, and you're saying because it has an ending... it's "just like DA2". I disagree.

To stay on topic:

- I want to be thrown curveballs in how I can deal with the story (which will ALWAYS be linear in an attempt at a persistent world story).

- But I do not want my story usurped by those curveballs. (Saying that the mages win, no matter WHAT I do... is "alright"... not letting me react to it afterward? Terrible.)

Actually, I said the difference lies in closure, in DA:O you feel the story reaches its end. While in DA2 you have
obvious sequel hooks in the ending. So, I guess in a sense I said DAO and DA2 are similar story wise, save for the ending.

On topic: I'll love to see ego deflating outcomes in the next game, I think DA2 did it right, although you could say it overdid it, while technically the champion you can't stop the war from happening and that bringing your sibling into the deep roads without anders means the death of them. In DAO, you are the lord and saviour of all the continent, hell you can even be the king, as if the mention of THE WARDEN wasn't subtle in DA2.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Knight_Quack wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

@Knight_Quack: If you enjoy watching your games play themselves, I'm totally cool with that.

Also - I don't consider letting someone else die for you, or using the Dark Ritual to be heroic at all.

So, like almost every story ever invented anywhere... the game comes to an ending, and you're saying because it has an ending... it's "just like DA2". I disagree.

To stay on topic:

- I want to be thrown curveballs in how I can deal with the story (which will ALWAYS be linear in an attempt at a persistent world story).

- But I do not want my story usurped by those curveballs. (Saying that the mages win, no matter WHAT I do... is "alright"... not letting me react to it afterward? Terrible.)

Actually, I said the difference lies in closure, in DA:O you feel the story reaches its end. While in DA2 you have
obvious sequel hooks in the ending. So, I guess in a sense I said DAO and DA2 are similar story wise, save for the ending.

On topic: I'll love to see ego deflating outcomes in the next game, I think DA2 did it right, although you could say it overdid it, while technically the champion you can't stop the war from happening and that bringing your sibling into the deep roads without anders means the death of them. In DAO, you are the lord and saviour of all the continent, hell you can even be the king, as if the mention of THE WARDEN wasn't subtle in DA2.

difference between hawke and the warden was in that warden solves problems and hell he is good at it he not always winer or damn he can even cause few problems but he do something , hawke well is failure hero he only caues problems or make them bigger and is too incompetent to solve them almost everyone main game quest ends with "i screwd up" the whole game is big bad ending and you can't do nothing about it you hero could even non exist and still everything would end in that same way. 

Modifié par TheKomandorShepard, 28 août 2013 - 07:49 .

[maliluka]

EntropicAngel wrote...

DarkKnightHolmes wrote...

The Warden can die so how are we a God again?
Gregoir treats the mage Warden like dirt, the dwarve commoners get made fun of by almost every noble, city elf warden fails to stop his own cousin from getting raped and dalish elf gets the taint and can lose a close friend. Maybe if you're a human noble then life is pretty sweet (minus the fact that you're whole family got murdered) but the others not so much.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have let my mage warden become king of fereldan instead Anora rejects me and I have to let the likes of Alistair or Anora rule the land.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have allowed the circle of magi to get their independence if we're mage warden but instead the chantry goes "Lol, nope!" even after stopping a blight.

If Bioware really wanted to feed our ego they could have let your city elf become a noble and make you powerful instead it cause a huge riot between humans and elves. Also if you decide to make Shianni the noble then she dies! 

I don't see much ego feeding, all I see is the Warden gets some jobs done and everyone is like "Yeah, thanks. We'll help in the war now after we made you our little servant"

Feeding one's ego starts with a low place. You start terribly poor, hated by nobles, etc. Over time you grow powerful. That is how the ego is fed.

I noticed you didn't reply to any of my examples. Do you feel that choosing the king of the entire Dwarven kingdom, choosing the ruler of Ferelden, choosing whether a powerful elf using a curse to live for hundreds of years dies or not, or choosing whether or not to harbor the soul of an old god in a child, feed the player's ego or not? Like it or not, those DO majorly feed the player's ego.

generally feeding ones ego equates to hearing someone is "doing great" without doing anything to earn it.
 
You managed to break the stalemate in Orzamar and put a King on the throne. Would the dwarves have been able to do this without your intervention, probably. In time to stop the blight who knows. However after putting the King on throne you didn't get in the middle of Orzamar and start screaming "whose your daddy" you jumped through some hoops to put said King on the throne to get your troops and went on to your next quest.  The same is said for all the other quests, not once did you walk in and hear the almighty is here without working to get it. Then maybe you got a thank you, or you will get your troops.

If you choose to do the dark ritual how is that feeding an ego? You are presented with a choice, one that you might live and you are bringing forth the soul of old god into the world and the other is certain death.  If anything you are doing Alistair's ego a service there, he of the great bloodline (if you are female)

[Knight_Quack]

@maliuka, doing the dark ritual strokes your ego in a number of ways: you get to sleep with a seductress NPC without any repercussion to your current LI, your character lives (why might?, awakening and DA2 demonstrates that the warden lives on) and you don't have to sacrifice another warden, and you are the father of a demi god.

[In Exile]

Not to mention being a massive hero no matter what. Whether or not Loghain/Alistair kills the archdemon the Warden is still the "Hero of Ferelden", not either of them.

[dragondreamer]

Like the time my Warden tried to be a tough guy and told Ser Cauthrien that "you're all gonna die RAWWRRR" and she proceeded to kick his ass?  Sure.