237 réponses à ce sujet

[TheChris92]

wright1978 wrote...

If it was the cascaded end result of a series of choices i would be quite happy for such a event to be present. As a railroaded event where cherished characters are offed is not something i would view acceptable in a RPG centred around choice.

Didn't they off a party character in Jade Empire? I also remember one party character turning evil in Neverwinter Nights - I think it's about the execution, and how it's handled, something vaguely shocking could boost the story but also ruin it. I wouldn't mind seeing some conflict between the party members and the protag.

Modifié par TheChris92, 28 août 2013 - 05:58 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Well, in NWN 2 Bishop the ranger betrays you near the end of the game. But he always does that I think. I remember for me I actually kinda cheered when after he did though because I always hated that guy and didn't want him in my party. Plus back then I had wondered if it was a direct consequence of me ignoring him this whole time, which would have been cool.

Dragon Age 2 had better examples of more stringing betrayals. Isabella left me to die as a consequence for not getting her friendship high enough and Anders committed terrorism specifically to make sure the goal I worked towards would fail.

It actually worked quite well because both of them were my PC's friends yet both of them still felt in character as they unexpectedly screwed him over.

One was a consequence of my actions, and the other was worse but always happens and really is only a betrayal depending on the perspective of one's Hawke.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 28 août 2013 - 06:25 .

[Herr Uhl]

TheChris92 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

If it was the cascaded end result of a series of choices i would be quite happy for such a event to be present. As a railroaded event where cherished characters are offed is not something i would view acceptable in a RPG centred around choice.

Didn't they off a party character in Jade Empire? I also remember one party character turning evil in Neverwinter Nights - I think it's about the execution, and how it's handled, something vaguely shocking could boost the story but also ruin it. I wouldn't mind seeing some conflict between the party members and the protag.

Sagacious Zu sacrifices himself to let you escape the black hand the lotus assassin fortress. Aribeth turns evil in NWN IIRC (Similar to Bastila Shan).

[TheChris92]

Herr Uhl wrote...

TheChris92 wrote...

wright1978 wrote...

If it was the cascaded end result of a series of choices i would be quite happy for such a event to be present. As a railroaded event where cherished characters are offed is not something i would view acceptable in a RPG centred around choice.

Didn't they off a party character in Jade Empire? I also remember one party character turning evil in Neverwinter Nights - I think it's about the execution, and how it's handled, something vaguely shocking could boost the story but also ruin it. I wouldn't mind seeing some conflict between the party members and the protag.

Sagacious Zu sacrifices himself to let you escape the black hand the lotus assassin fortress. Aribeth turns evil in NWN IIRC (Similar to Bastila Shan).

Sacrifice is quite an intriguing concept too if it serves the plot well - The example of Zu from Jade Empire is quite good especially because he was intriguing. To be fair though, you only had so much dialogue with him, but I still think this could work in relations to Dragon Age. I suppose ME3 did do a faily alot of that character death stuff, so the whole character betraying you-angle could be interesting to explore as well. To sum it up -- I'd like to something that provides shock value of the highest caliber, ala Master Li's betrayal or protagonist turning out to be the bad guy all along. Not a cardboard cut-out of Martin's work or some other fantasy novelist, but something on equal standing would always be appreciated.

[OdanUrr]

When it comes to buying a $60 game you need to be careful how you go about "shocking" your audience. Sure, they may have already bought this game, but how does that predispose them for their next purchase?

The question you need to ask yourself is, do I really need this scene? Can it be done any other way and still deliver the same outcome/effect? If you absolutely need it to tell your story, then I say go for it. If not, if you only want it for shock/drama's sake, then perhaps your story would be better off without it.

[XX-Pyro]

Star fury wrote...

In order to make a really heart-breaking scene like the Red Wedding, you must have a talent of George R.R. Martin.

Hope this is a joke his writing style reflects that of a fifth grader. ASOIAF has a pretty good plot though I'll give him that.

Modifié par XX-Pyro, 28 août 2013 - 07:43 .

[VampireSoap]

Wulfram wrote...

If I was playing Robb I would have married who I was supposed to marry. So I shouldn't get the Red Wedding. It was a stretch even with Robb's stupidity.

I don't recall the Red Wedding killed all that many major characters, anyway. Not permanently.

Yeah, Robb's kinda the stupidest king of the five! :lol:

I mean, can't he just marry a Frey girl and make whoever he "loves" a mistress? That's kinda a tradition among kings.

And no spoilers, please. Some of these guys haven't read the book yet.

[TheChris92]

OdanUrr wrote...

When it comes to buying a $60 game you need to be careful how you go about "shocking" your audience. Sure, they may have already bought this game, but how does that predispose them for their next purchase?

The question you need to ask yourself is, do I really need this scene? Can it be done any other way and still deliver the same outcome/effect? If you absolutely need it to tell your story, then I say go for it. If not, if you only want it for shock/drama's sake, then perhaps your story would be better off without it.

Oh I didn't mean to imply that it's something I require of the game. Arkham Asylum had the Scarecrow sections, which is the kind of shock-valued moments that works because it was unexpected. At best I'm just gonna say that BioWare should do what they feel is best for the story they wanna tell. If I start delibarately asking for it then it'll obviously come to feel less special. But the OP was asking if something akin to the Red Wedding would happen, and my response was that I wouldn't mind seeing something akin to it if it works.

I'm assuming this response was meant to be a reply towards my post, perhaps - If not then my mistake. 
  

Modifié par TheChris92, 28 août 2013 - 08:01 .

[The Night Mammoth]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Star fury wrote...

In order to make a really heart-breaking scene like the Red Wedding, you must have a talent of George R.R. Martin.

Hope this is a joke his writing style reflects that of a fifth grader. ASOIAF has a pretty good plot though I'll give him that.

wat

[In Exile]

VampireSoap wrote...
Yeah, Robb's kinda the stupidest king of the five! :lol:

I mean, can't he just marry a Frey girl and make whoever he "loves" a mistress? That's kinda a tradition among kings.

And no spoilers, please. Some of these guys haven't read the book yet.

No, because (depending on what theory you believe in) either honour or magic. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Star fury wrote...

In order to make a really heart-breaking scene like the Red Wedding, you must have a talent of George R.R. Martin.

Hope this is a joke his writing style reflects that of a fifth grader. ASOIAF has a pretty good plot though I'll give him that.

No............ just no.

[dreamgazer]

VampireSoap wrote...

Yeah, Robb's kinda the stupidest king of the five!

Kinda? I sympathize with the Starks as a family, but that pup had it coming.

[wright1978]

dreamgazer wrote...

VampireSoap wrote...

Yeah, Robb's kinda the stupidest king of the five!

Kinda? I sympathize with the Starks as a family, but that pup had it coming.

Yep act utterly stupid and death does and should come.

[Star fury]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Star fury wrote...

In order to make a really heart-breaking scene like the Red Wedding, you must have a talent of George R.R. Martin.

Hope this is a joke his writing style reflects that of a fifth grader. ASOIAF has a pretty good plot though I'll give him that.

[leaguer of one]

iakus wrote...

No

I'm really sick of the "dark =deep" fad

1. It's not a fad.

2. Then why are you into DA?

[leaguer of one]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Star fury wrote...

In order to make a really heart-breaking scene like the Red Wedding, you must have a talent of George R.R. Martin.

Hope this is a joke his writing style reflects that of a fifth grader. ASOIAF has a pretty good plot though I'll give him that.

You would not know a good book even if I threw Dune at you.

[Savber100]

A scene that kills off my main protagonist after making the wrong choices, forcing me to remake or play another character that has to live through the repercussions? Fans will be pissed but I'll love it.

[David7204]

'Dark' is not deep as a given. It can be deep and meaningful, but that's dependent on what themes are attached to it and how characters react.

And as much as people will deny it, I have seen quite a few threads that pretty much insist 'dark' is an automatic ticket to maturity and 'realism,' and fundamentally better storytelling than 'light.' Which is nonsense.

Modifié par David7204, 28 août 2013 - 08:33 .

[Azaron Nightblade]

It's something that's very hard to pull off.
One of the only games that did it successfully that I can remember offhand was FFVII - with Aeris getting skewered.

[Volus Warlord]

David7204 wrote...

'Dark' is not deep as a given. It can be deep and meaningful, but that's dependent on what themes are attached to it and how characters react.

And as much as people will deny it, I have seen quite a few threads that pretty much insist 'dark' is an automatic ticket to maturity and 'realism,' and fundamentally better storytelling than 'light.' Which is nonsense.

Who says were after "deep?" We are after "enjoyable" which may be deep or not. Rule of fun, remember? Your argument is entirely irrelevant.

However, I do think "light" is inherently immature. How can you get involved if nothing goes wrong, everything goes your way, and no antagonists are serious in nature? That sound's like a children's show.

If you want "light," go watch Blue's Clues. 

[David7204]

Maybe you should try making your point without a stupidly ridiculous misinterpretation?

'Light' does not mean Blue's Clues. You want to talk about immaturity, maybe you should take a look at your very, very silly little strawmen there? In an ideal ending for ME 3, I would still want half the galaxy to be destroyed, multiple squadmates and important characters dead, and pretty much everyone alive subjected to serious trauma. And that would be only for the absolute perfect ending. Yet it would still be happy and triumphant and 'light.' Is that Blue's Clues to you?

Also, I don't really give half a damn what you were arguing, because I was arguing that dark is not necessarily deep. Whether it's 'fun' or not was irrelevent to my post. I argued exactly what I intended to argue.

Modifié par David7204, 28 août 2013 - 08:50 .

[Volus Warlord]

David7204 wrote...

Maybe you should try making your point without a stupidly ridiculous misinterpretation?

'Light' does not mean Blue's Clues. You want to talk about immaturity, maybe you should take a look at your very, very silly little strawmen there? In an ideal ending for ME 3, I would still want half the to be destroyed, multiple squadmates and important characters dead, and pretty much everyone alive subjected to serious trauma. And that would be only for the absolute perfect ending. Yet it would still a happy and triumphant. Is that Blue's Clues to you?

Also, I don't really give half a damn what you were arguing, because I was arguing that dark is not necessarily deep. Whether it's 'fun' or not was irrelevent to my post. I argued exactly what I intended to argue.

That is indeed Blue's Clues.  Very, very, light.

First of, an ailment isn't an ailment if everyone has it. Then it becomes a universal trait, which is more or less synonymous with nothing. Therefore, everyone being traumatized wouldn't mean too much. As per the dead? Psh! They're dead, nothing matters for them now. 

And that's the "perfect" ending. Nothing bad happens.  The dead are in a world without pain and the living are all in it together, happily ever after. Seems very light indeed, Ser Blue's Clues.

Doesn't matter what you intended to argue if your argument was botch. I mean, heck, you implied enjoyments was unimportant in video games. You're wrong. 

[dreamgazer]

The problem is the lazy "dark = deep" position people take.

Dark doesn't have to be deep to be interesting, nor should people assume that they're required to go hand in hand.

[David7204]

Firstly, your ought to learn to separate your delusions of what I supposedly implied with facts and legitimate deductions. The fact you've convinced yourself I somehow implied enjoying a game is unimportant by arguing 'dark' is not necessary mature shows me how poor a grasp you have of such concepts.

Secondly, why don't we actually test this little definition of yours of what is supposedly mature? Why don't you name me a few well known stories that you think meet this qualification of 'not being Blue's Clues' and explain why.

[dreamgazer]

David, quote people. It's easy, and it limits confusion.